Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[NIX]

I[d say it be reasonable to make the man pay half of whatever economical cost the abortion costs.

Assuming you just attempted to paint a picture of equality here, you just somehow managed to make your position even more ironically laughable.

Neither man nor woman ask each other ideologies on a one night stand.

Furthermore, the woman can still put the child in a foster home if she wants after she gave him/her birth. So it still makes no sense for the man to be bound 18 years economically if he doesnt want to and is willing to give up parental rights.

If you don't like the possible outcome of not being on the same page as the person you're having sex with- I would not suggest one night stands. (not with anyone who will be able to find you again anyway) If you can't take a few minutes to discuss birth control, you might just as well skip the last name exchange as well.

I'm pretty sure the father gets first dibs over fostercare.:cover: Assuming he hasn't already disappeared. In such a case there is effectively no difference. If the father wants to raise the baby, the mother still has to contribute to child support. She can not just wash her hands of it. If both parents want to give the baby up for adoption, neither one is responsible for providing economic support. If I'm wrong about any of this correct me.

 

[waitasec]

Huh?

Mens responsability is to pay for the child if there was one, womens responsability is to at least not kill him or aid to his killing.

responsibility? says who?

It is ridiculous to say that the woman can kill the baby if she wants but if the man doesnt want to be a father he has no say in it.

it's not ridiculous...he left his deposit

 

[Koldo]

I keep telling you, you DO have a choice. You can get a vasectomy, and wear a condom.

This argument can be used against nearly all sorts of abortion.
It is a double edged sword.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

*sigh*

Here we go again....what is this, round 7 of anti-feminist ranting?

 

[Koldo]

*sigh*

Here we go again....what is this, round 7 of anti-feminist ranting?

I don't think such a loaded term accurately describes the debate...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't think such a loaded term accurately describes the debate...

I do.

Reproductive rights are one of the cornerstones of most feminist thought. I'm also speaking broadly here at RF and IRL considering we've been watching Akin's "legitimate rape" gaffe, all male panels deciding what women should or shouldn't do with our reproductive systems, and a couple of arguments that women shouldn't be given the choice of what is to happen with their own bodies.....

The OP is a disingenuous attack on reproductive rights by offering the poor analogy that if a man doesn't want to be a father, he should be "just as free" to bow out as a woman is who terminates a pregnancy.

I stand by my assessment.

 

[Koldo]

I do.

Reproductive rights are one of the cornerstones of most feminist thought. I'm also speaking broadly here at RF and IRL considering we've been watching Akin's "legitimate rape" gaffe, all male panels deciding what women should or shouldn't do with our reproductive systems, and a couple of arguments that women shouldn't be given the choice of what is to happen with their own bodies.....

None of which relates to what is being debated.

The OP is a disingenuous attack on reproductive rights by offering the poor analogy that if a man doesn't want to be a father, he should be "just as free" to bow out as a woman is who terminates a pregnancy.

I stand by my assessment.

How is that an attack on reproductive rights?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

None of which relates to what is being debated.

How is that an attack on reproductive rights?

Because a man's responsibility to offspring and his own bodily security and autonomy has nothing to do with abortion. And yet, the OP is arguing that abortion is equated with being a deadbeat dad who bows out of his responsibility to his offspring.

It's a very clear attack on reproductive rights by equating it to morally and legally reprehensible behavior.

 

[Alceste]

This argument can be used against nearly all sorts of abortion.
It is a double edged sword.

Which argument are you talking about, and how can it be used to argue against a woman's right to use any form of birth control available to her, including abortion?

 

[Koldo]

Because a man's responsibility to offspring and his own bodily security and autonomy has nothing to do with abortion. And yet, the OP is arguing that abortion is equated with being a deadbeat dad who bows out of his responsibility to his offspring.

It's a very clear attack on reproductive rights by equating it to morally and legally reprehensible behavior.

Where did you read, in the OP, that abortion is equal to being a deadbeat dad who bows out of his reponsibility to his offspring?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Let`s say for a hypothetical that I am pro choice and I leave a woman pregnant.

She decides to have the baby even though none of us wanted the baby when we had sex.

Am I legaly bound to provide to that baby even though I didn`t want to have him/her?

So if we want true equal rights, and if we are saying that the zygote is not a human being, the men should have legal rights to renounce to the zygote or the baby the same way the woman has the legal right to not only renounce but kill him.

So in reality, this not only gives women the choice to have the baby or not, but forces men into paying for something they never agreed upon.

Can it be made any more clear than this?

 

[Alceste]

Where did you read, in the OP, that abortion is equal to being a deadbeat dad who bows out of his reponsibility to his offspring?

He's been arguing for equating a woman's right to choose whether or not to have a child in the first place with a man's right to choose not to take financial responsibility for his born children.

 

[Koldo]

Which argument are you talking about, and how can it be used to argue against a woman's right to use any form of birth control available to her, including abortion?

" ...you DO have a choice. You can get a vasectomy [ or tubectomy ], and wear a condom."

The words in italic being mine.

P.S.: Just for arbotion.

 

[NIX]

Really it's just the OP's roundabout attempt at pointing a finger at the (general) 'unfairness' of abortion. (while somehow at the same time attempting to minimize- or ignore- the inherent 'unfairness' of pregnancy)

 

[NIX]

Life is not fair. Play at your own risk.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Really it's just the OP's roundabout attempt at pointing a finger at the (general) 'unfairness' of abortion. (while somehow at the same time attempting to minimize- or ignore- the inherent 'unfairness' of pregnancy)

:clap

Well put.

 

[Alceste]

Really it's just the OP's roundabout attempt at pointing a finger at the (general) 'unfairness' of abortion. (while somehow at the same time attempting to minimize- or ignore- the inherent 'unfairness' of pregnancy)

Heart hear.

" ...you DO have a choice. You can get a vasectomy [ or tubectomy ], and wear a condom."

The words in italic being mine.

P.S.: Just for arbotion.

I have a lot of choices. I said that myself. Pills, implants, patches, cervical caps, condoms, and, if all else fails, at least three methods of dealing with accidents: morning after pills, chemical abortion and surgical abortion.

You have two choices: condoms and vasectomies. I think they may have developed a male pill, so soon you will have three choices.

If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefor you should be man enough to accept the consequences, whether or not the woman in question decides to avail herself of her last remaining option.

If this situation is intolerable to you, you should fight for more choices for yourself, not fewer choices for women.

 

[Koldo]

Can it be made any more clear than this?

A deadbeat dad is someone who willingly doesn't pay the due value to his child's support. It implies someone who engages in an illegal practice.

Therefore, it is particularly inaccurate to say he compared this to abortion.
What he is comparing as equal to abortion is the ( proposed ) legal right of not being obliged to pay child's support under a particular circumstance.

 

[Koldo]

I have a lot of choices. I said that myself. Pills, implants, patches, cervical caps, condoms...

"Exactly. You already have pills, implants, patches, cervical caps and condoms.
If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefore, you should be woman enough to accept the consequence."

The exact same argument can be used against abortion. See?

If this situation is intolerable to you, you should fight for more choices for yourself, not fewer choices for women.

Where is there any mention of anything of the sort?

 

[Alceste]

A deadbeat dad is someone who willingly doesn't pay the due value to his child's support. It implies someone who engages in an illegal practice.

Therefore, it is particularly inaccurate to say he compared this to abortion.
What he is comparing as equal to abortion is the ( proposed ) legal right of not being obliged to pay child's support under a particular circumstance.

Do you think it's reasonable that a man should be able to coerce his partner through threats of abandonment to make a personal health decision that her conscience possibly can't abide? Should the choice of whether or not she goes through the pain and disruption of pregnancy and childbirth be his to make? Do you think that makes sense?

I don't. I think a man's right to choose ends when he decides not to take adequate steps to prevent an unplanned pregnancy.