Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[Koldo]

How idiotic of you. Here's some news that may shock you: In countries where abortion is legal, safe and easily accessible, many women still choose to have babies resulting from unplanned pregnancies. I know, right? Amazing, but true.

So what?

 

[Willamena]

I didn't mention 'importance' anywhere.

I'm sorry--I thought you were responding to my argument in kind.

It is the woman's choice because it is the woman's body that is put at risk by pregnancy. The fetus is as much a part of her (and as important as) as her hands and her heart, her kidney and her left little toe, and to lose any part of her body in a surgery--shy of life-saving surgery--should be her choice to make, not someone else's.

 

[Alceste]

So what?

So obviously your opinion that abortion is a more desirable option than having a baby for every woman in every circumstance is total garbage.

 

[Koldo]

I'm sorry--I thought you were responding to my argument in kind.

I thought so too...

It is the woman's choice because it is the woman's body that is put at risk by pregnancy.

This is THE argument to use.

The fetus is as much a part of her (and as important as) as her hands and her heart, her kidney and her left little toe, and to lose any part of her body in a surgery--shy of life-saving surgery--should be her choice to make, not someone else's.

With this much i must disagree.

 

[Koldo]

So obviously your opinion that abortion is a more desirable option than having a baby for every woman in every circumstance is total garbage.

When did i say that 'abortion is a more desirable option than having a baby for every woman in every circumstance'?

 

[Willamena]

This is THE argument to use.

The only one. :yes:

 

[Koldo]

The only one. :yes:

Oh, i am sorry.
I misread what you said as ''It is the woman's choice because it is the woman's body that is put at risk by abortion.''. Don't ask how it happened ( I don't know how ).

So let me reply accordingly:

I don't see the risk the woman goes through pregnancy as relevant in this case.
If there is any considerable risk, more the reason for her to abort.

 

[Willamena]

Oh, i am sorry.
I misread what you said as ''It is the woman's choice because it is the woman's body that is put at risk by abortion.''. Don't ask how it happened ( I don't know how ).

So let me reply accordingly:

I don't see the risk the woman goes through pregnancy as relevant in this case.
If there is any considerable risk, more the reason for her to abort.

No worries, I figured it was something of the sort.

The risk is only relevant in providing a solid reason for abortion being a woman's choice. It's not relevant to the case of the deadbeat dad-to-be who wants a say in whether his GF can keep the baby.

 

[Willamena]

If there is any considerable risk, more the reason for her to abort.

Every pregnancy is a risk to the woman.

Let's say there's a lottery, a lottery for women, and if you win the lottery you get a baby!

But there's a catch, a guaranteed one. 99 women will win the lottery, and one will die.

Putting aside the issue of whether or not anyone wants to play this lottery (that's not relevant right now) that risk for those who do play is enough for society to grant that those players who have played can choose Door #2, behind which is a surgery table.

 

[Alceste]

When did i say that 'abortion is a more desirable option than having a baby for every woman in every circumstance'?

I said both abortion and unplanned parenthood are consequences of carelessness or birth control failure, because abortion is not fun. You said it's more fun than pregnancy. If that were true, why are so many women still choosing to have the baby?

 

[Koldo]

The risk is only relevant in providing a solid reason for abortion being a woman's choice.

Not really.

 

[Koldo]

Every pregnancy is a risk to the woman.

Let's say there's a lottery, a lottery for women, and if you win the lottery you get a baby!

But there's a catch, a guaranteed one. 99 women will win the lottery, and one will die.

Putting aside the issue of whether or not anyone wants to play this lottery (that's not relevant right now) that risk for those who do play is enough for society to grant that those players who have played can choose Door #2, behind which is a surgery table.

Why do you think so?

 

[Willamena]

Why do you think so?

Because 1 in a 100 is good odds if I'm playing the ponies, but not such good odds if it's my life at stake.

 

[Koldo]

I said both abortion and unplanned parenthood are consequences of carelessness or birth control failure, because abortion is not fun.

No, you didn't say this.
Read your posts once again.

You said it's more fun than pregnancy. If that were true, why are so many women still choosing to have the baby?

I said it is more fun than unwanted pregnancy.
There are several reasons as to why many women still choose to have the baby.
Views on morality and religion, to cite two examples.

 

[Koldo]

Because 1 in a 100 is good odds if I'm playing the ponies, but not such good odds if it's my life at stake.

What if the odds of door #2 are 1 in 50?

 

[Willamena]

What if the odds of door #2 are 1 in 50?

What the odds behind Door #2 are don't really matter, because there's always Door #3, behind which is a giant aligator.

It's not a contest between doors, it's a matter of mitigating a known risk.

 

[Koldo]

What the odds behind Door #2 are don't really matter, because there's always Door #3, behind which is a giant aligator.

It's not a contest between doors, it's a matter of mitigating a known risk.

You just said it is a matter of mitigating a known risk.

If the risk is higher on door #2 then you are doing the reverse...

 

[Willamena]

You just said it is a matter of mitigating a known risk.

If the risk is higher on door #2 then you are doing the reverse...

No...

Known risk + no alternative = unmitigated risk
Known risk + one alternative = mitigated risk

If you broke your leg, who would you trust to fix it better? Time and nature, or a doctor?


(Time Lord doctors don't count.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So if we want true equal rights, and if we are saying that the zygote is not a human being, the men should have legal rights to renounce to the zygote or the baby the same way the woman has the legal right to not only renounce but kill him.

So in reality, this not only gives women the choice to have the baby or not, but forces men into paying for something they never agreed upon.

Well, no.

The fetus, and later baby, is a result of their joint action. Both the man and the woman are responsible.

If the woman behaved unreasonably in a way that created extra cost for the man, then we could potentially say that he's not liable for that extra cost. For instance, if she decided to buy the baby a solid gold crib, I think any reasonable judge would say that the man should only pay half the cost of a standard crib, not half of what the woman paid.

However, both aborting the fetus and carrying it to term are reasonable responses to the situation, so neither one implies that the man is released of his responsibility to pay for half.

 

[Koldo]

No...

Known risk + no alternative = unmitigated risk
Known risk + one alternative = mitigated risk

'Mitigate' entails reducing.
Known risk + one alternative is not necessarily equal to mitigating risk.

If you broke your leg, who would you trust to fix it better? Time and nature, or a doctor?


(Time Lord doctors don't count.)

If you were to consider the first option as not being used during the second one, then i would go for the first one.