Gunshot wounds--leading cause of death for American children

[Brickjectivity]

There's something that coming at this topic from different side that I wanted to mention. I just woke up, and it looks they are going to charge father, in the current case. I don't know all the facts, but fair enough, I haven't given the trend of charging parents a ton of thought, but I can see how a parent might be culpable, though I think maybe it can be complicated

I'm curious however, about the general school environment. And I am NOT defending what any of these kids do, that do these violent acts. But I wonder if bullying, and supervisors overlooking bullying, might be a comparable input to what a bad parent is also doing. I think I recall being bullied and having it be overlooked even when teachers were looking directly at me, and I came from a smaller, well organized suburban school. I am not suggesting that this happened in this particular case , of it is indeed a contributing factor in what happens with these kids who do these things. However, does a bullying environment make a contribution to these events?

I don't know. Perhaps it is the pressure to be sociable in school. Schools expect perfect stranger students to get along and become chums, and its usually not a good place to learn how to make friends. You should be able to simply be and not be required to perform or dress cool or talk better or fit in. The way schools are you have to fit in or you get treated like a creature. Normal friendships are formed in cooperation or something like that. Some people in school do form good friendship, but a lot don't. I really don't know though what specifically has made school worse. Its just a lot worse.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, the US school systems of only 40 years ago in which students could be disciplined at least by the principal if not the teacher. Teachers could send home assignments, and the students would work on those outside of school and bring them back to be graded. That is no longer the case.

When I refer to the system I refer to all of it not just the course requirements. There is no discipline in many classes, and the teachers cannot get the support needed to correct this.

What kindergarten teachers : "https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/04/04/challenges-in-the-classroom/"

What the NEA reports about it: "https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-teachers-want-public-know"

The teacher shortages: "https://abcnews.go.com/US/nations-top-teachers-share-biggest-challenges-burnout-student/story?id=99461971"

If the teachers are getting burned out and can't support the students you can understand why students begin to feel doomed as they are passed up through grades but haven't mastered materials. They don't feel accomplished, and they may feel empty, unprepared. It so happens occasionally that high school students have graduated who could not read. That would not be possible in a healthy school system, and it would not have happened 40 years ago.

*addition* 40 years ago when school shootings didn't appear to be a thing.

What makes you think there is any causal relation between this and school shootings?

 

[Brickjectivity]

What makes you think there is any causal relation between this and school shootings?

I have not made any such assumption.

I am influenced by: The students, the downhill of the schools, the better situation 40 years ago in schools and a film and lack of school shootings back then. I ask myself what has changed since then and correlate. I have been through the school system partially back in the 90s, and I've met teens in there feeling hopeless. An aquaintance of mine on the school bus called himself a loser and was crying about it. He felt he was going nowhere and it was our 12th year in school. Also I am influenced by a film called Bowling for Colombine by Michael Moore in which he interviews (anectdotal evidence) people who live in the town where a school shooting has taken place. The students in the town feel like they are doomed, even though they get to go to school. They feel locked in. Michael Moore does not conclude that schooling is the reason for the shootings and does not make any conclusion at all. He seems to think the shootings are related to how the news media has been covering crime and contrasts our news media with that of Canada where shootings are infrequent or unheard of despite their having guns.

Everyone has recognized there is a problem for a long time now, and there have been a lot of efforts to make schools safer. That's why some schools--like Apalachee High School--have classroom doors that can lock automatically. That stopped Colt Gray from entering at least one classroom, but he found another in which the door was not locked.

They are much fetished especially in media. I don't know if that can be called a cause, but its entirely possible. It is one of the things which have changed in recent history some decades ago.

They are much fetished especially in media. I don't know if that can be called a cause, but its entirely possible. It is one of the things which have changed in recent history some decades ago.

I mean making them better, less depressing and doomed. They're all very, very closely guarded compared to my childhood when strangers could walk in; but the teachers are complaining that they can't get students to behave. There's something very wrong that is making the schools fail. Students get out of school and don't know enough.

 

[Balthazzar]

Freedom in America ... Was freedom actually termed "free dumb"? I doubt you'd feel all cozy taking that one to the bank, but ... there is much to say for tyranny and authoritarianism. At least that type of system is set up to keep people in check and under the ruling thumb. Hmm, no guns to defend ourselves against
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Who? Who knows? Who cares? Freedom is dumb. Who needs it? Who needs guns? Who needs to be able to freely speak anyway? Free and dumb American citizens? Nah! They too gun crazy gun idolaters to be qualified for free speech. They're too gung ho lets go get our boots on to see what they seem to be missing. Did we lose something? International cred maybe? How did that happen? It hasn't ... yet! 1, 2, 3 and away we go as well as our cred in the democracy arena. Education? Who needs it? Our kids are getting shot at school anyway. Guns the leading cause of fatal gun shot wounds for American kids. Yup! At least that much is accurate.

The anti gun crowd scares me. I mean that. So do this nations enemies. We know how it works. Just prove that something causes something bad and it can go away. Freedom ... Wait ... I mean free dumb.

Not really, but I'm not fond of tyranny or authoritarian regimes.

I don't own a gun, by the way.

"Word"

(that's a 1st amendment reference in case you were wondering).

I must be an idiot. People don't like that term ... it has religious connotations.

 

[Colt]

The start of a new school year begins with the mass shooting at a Georgia high school. The shooter was just 14 years old. This is intolerable. Guns have become the leading cause of death for American children.

As guns rise to leading cause of death among US children, research funding to help prevent and protect victims lags​

Not true! Abortion is the leading cause of death for American children by a long shot!

 

[Pogo]

Yes, the US school systems of only 40 years ago in which students could be disciplined at least by the principal if not the teacher. Teachers could send home assignments, and the students would work on those outside of school and bring them back to be graded. That is no longer the case.

When I refer to the system I refer to all of it not just the course requirements. There is no discipline in many classes, and the teachers cannot get the support needed to correct this.

What kindergarten teachers : "https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/04/04/challenges-in-the-classroom/"

What the NEA reports about it: "https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-teachers-want-public-know"

The teacher shortages: "https://abcnews.go.com/US/nations-top-teachers-share-biggest-challenges-burnout-student/story?id=99461971"

If the teachers are getting burned out and can't support the students you can understand why students begin to feel doomed as they are passed up through grades but haven't mastered materials. They don't feel accomplished, and they may feel empty, unprepared. It so happens occasionally that high school students have graduated who could not read. That would not be possible in a healthy school system, and it would not have happened 40 years ago.

*addition* 40 years ago when school shootings didn't appear to be a thing.

Sorry, but I don't see that your links justify your assertion that some variety of discipline was more possible 40 years ago, suspension with work at home is still a commonly available practice though maybe not in the sense it was 40 years ago since there is recognition that there may not be a parent there if the student is not in class.

As to lack of support, burnout, etc. that is not so much the students as the societies lack of recognition and support for the teachers.
Yes there are problem students, there always were, but 40 years ago, if they didn't want to go to school nobody made them. Now they are the teachers problems and a teachers day is hardly 7-3.

 

[Pogo]

I don't know. Perhaps it is the pressure to be sociable in school. Schools expect perfect stranger students to get along and become chums, and its usually not a good place to learn how to make friends. You should be able to simply be and not be required to perform or dress cool or talk better or fit in. The way schools are you have to fit in or you get treated like a creature. Normal friendships are formed in cooperation or something like that. Some people in school do form good friendship, but a lot don't. I really don't know though what specifically has made school worse. Its just a lot worse.

Then we really need to learn to teach socialization beyond getting along with your closest identities. That is what school has been about in many ways for many years and why you learn about other civilizations. It has always been a struggle, but should never be ignored.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

As to lack of support, burnout, etc. that is not so much the students as the societies lack of recognition and support for the teachers.
Yes there are problem students, there always were, but 40 years ago, if they didn't want to go to school nobody made them. Now they are the teachers problems and a teachers day is hardly 7-3.

Then we really need to learn to teach socialization beyond getting along with your closest identities. That is what school has been about in many ways for many years and why you learn about other civilizations. It has always been a struggle, but should never be ignored.

the thoughts you're putting forward here are indicating the unsolved complexities of society, that modernity seems no closer to answering now, despite being able to look at big archives of history. The primary question seems to be, whose role is it to socialize the young? The government's or the parent's, or is there supposed to be a collaboration in harmony between these two, in actually raising (socializing and educating) the young?

I know that at the turn of century, there were outcast kids sitting alone at the lunch table, in a well organized school. Across the room was the teacher's lunch table - what were those teachers thinking regarding the lone kid that they would have seen across the room? Were they ignoring it, or were they thinking about it a lot, maybe thinking there was nothing they can do. Maybe some of them also didn't care. It isn't clear

I'm not a psychologist, maybe that's what the kid wanted to do. I don't know.. I'm not saying that the kid will act up. But in that situation, it doesn't seem like socialization is occurring as could be commonly expected?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Sorry, but I don't see that your links justify your assertion that some variety of discipline was more possible 40 years ago, suspension with work at home is still a commonly available practice though maybe not in the sense it was 40 years ago since there is recognition that there may not be a parent there if the student is not in class.

As to lack of support, burnout, etc. that is not so much the students as the societies lack of recognition and support for the teachers.
Yes there are problem students, there always were, but 40 years ago, if they didn't want to go to school nobody made them. Now they are the teachers problems and a teachers day is hardly 7-3.

I think these two paragraphs are in contradiction a little bit.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Then we really need to learn to teach socialization beyond getting along with your closest identities. That is what school has been about in many ways for many years and why you learn about other civilizations. It has always been a struggle, but should never be ignored.

More language would be smart.

 

[Pogo]

the thoughts you're putting forward here are indicating the unsolved complexities of society, that modernity seems no closer to answering now, despite being able to look at big archives of history. The primary question seems to be, whose role is it to socialize the young? The government's or the parent's, or is there supposed to be a collaboration in harmony between these two, in actually raising (socializing and educating) the young?

I know that at the turn of century, there were outcast kids sitting alone at the lunch table, in a well organized school. Across the room was the teacher's lunch table - what were those teachers thinking regarding the lone kid that they would have seen across the room? Were they ignoring it, or were they thinking about it a lot, maybe thinking there was nothing they can do. Maybe some of them also didn't care. It isn't clear

I'm not a psychologist, maybe that's what the kid wanted to do. I don't know.. I'm not saying that the kid will act up. But in that situation, it doesn't seem like socialization is occurring as could be commonly expected?

Those are the issues and which turn of which century were you referring to?

 

[Copernicus]

Not true! Abortion is the leading cause of death for American children by a long shot!

Colt, try to keep up. This dispute over the meaning of "children" has already been discussed in the thread. We're past that. If you want to quibble over what the word means, start another thread.

 

[David Young]

This is not a common attitude outside of the United States.

I'm a long way from the United States and it is an extremely common attitude here that not everything in the world needs to be changed if the cost of changing it is too high.

Plenty of people here in Wrocław think that a metro would be a great idea if it magically came into existence all of a sudden. Few people support building one, given how astronomically expensive it would be. That reasoning can be found across the board when it comes to politics as well.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Spoiler: Vid about children with no safe paths to schools or parks

I thought this might connect, too. This mom is rearing her kids in Germany and tells us that there city planning takes into account paths for children to walk and to bike places. She takes us back to her hometown near Springfield and makes a dangerous 1 mile walk from her childhood home to her childhood school. There are no crosswalks, and she has to walk on the side of a 30mph road without a sidewalk. She visits various parks and points out the only way for children to visit them is to be cheuffered in an automobile. Finally, she remarks that this is not the case in the 1970s. Children used to walk everywhere.

 

[Copernicus]

I suspect that that is because you are struggling to justify your desire to tolerate the high level of gunshot-related deaths and injuries. This is not a common attitude outside of the United States.

I'm a long way from the United States and it is an extremely common attitude here that not everything in the world needs to be changed if the cost of changing it is too high.

I put the part of my post that you quoted in boldface, but I restored the preceding text to clarify the context of what you were responding to. Notice that you changed what I was calling "a common attitude" to be about tolerating cost rather than tolerating "the high level of gunshot-related deaths and injuries." I'm pretty sure that most Poles would never find the level of gunshot-related deaths and injuries in the US tolerable in Poland. The ones living in the US are just as concerned as everyone else here. Fortunately for you, this kind of danger is not a real problem in Wrocław or anywhere else in Poland. Your country is not flooded with guns in civilian hands. It is said that roughly one in every 20 Americans owns an AR15-style weapon. They are cheap and available in most states in our country. But not in Poland. You do not have to register it with the police, and you do not have to be licensed to own one. With a quick background check, you can usually get one within days, if not instantly.

Plenty of people here in Wrocław think that a metro would be a great idea if it magically came into existence all of a sudden. Few people support building one, given how astronomically expensive it would be. That reasoning can be found across the board when it comes to politics as well.

I can't speak for public opinion in Poland, and I doubt that you can either. Everybody everywhere is concerned about costs, but they are also concerned about public safety. The question of a subway system in Wrocław is an entirely different kind of concern from the one we are discussing here.

 

[David Young]

I can certainly speak about public opinion. It is publicly voiced, after all. Not only are political and ethical matters discussed frequently on the radio (and the television), but they publish election results here just as they do in the USA.

You surely must be able to see that the analogy of the metro is to describe a wider point about effort and reward.

Edit: Just for the record, anyone over 18 in Poland may legally buy a replica black-powder firearm and the ingredients to make black powder with no licence needed. They may hop across the border to by the black powder ready-made in Czechia and bring it back to Poland, also completely legally. Reselling it online is a definite no-no, however.

 

[Copernicus]

I can certainly speak about public opinion. It is publicly voiced, after all. Not only are political and ethical matters discussed frequently on the radio (and the television), but they publish election results here just as they do in the USA.

You surely must be able to see that the analogy of the metro is to describe a wider point about effort and reward.

No, I don't. I explained why in my last post. This is not entirely about money. People tend to put a higher value on human lives than a subway system. I am surprised that you do not see the difference.

Edit: Just for the record, anyone over 18 in Poland may legally buy a replica black-powder firearm and the ingredients to make black powder with no licence needed. They may hop across the border to by the black powder ready-made in Czechia and bring it back to Poland, also completely legally. Reselling it online is a definite no-no, however.

You have no idea what it is like to live in a country where military-style assault weapons are easily available to anyone that can pass a superficial background check. When was the last time any student brought a gun into a Polish school and shot students and teachers? Here's a map of school shootings around the world for 2024. They list 288 for the US. Check how that compares with other countries. Poland hasn't had any so far this year.

School Shootings by Country 2024​

 

[Copernicus]

The latest terrorist attack with an AR15-style weapon occurred in Kentucky along I-75. Authorities have found the AR15 platform gun that they believe was involved in the random shooting at drivers on the interstate highway. Would this have happened without the availability of such a weapon? Allegedly, the gunman bought his weapon just 3 days ago along with 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

Authorities vow relentless search as manhunt for interstate shooter enters third day in Kentucky​

Authorities said Couch purchased the weapon and about 1,000 rounds of ammunition Saturday morning in London. Couch has a military background, having served in the National Guard for at least four years, said Capt. Richard Dalrymple of the Laurel County Sheriff’s Office.

Authorities initially said nine vehicles were struck by gunfire, but later increased that number to 12, saying some people did not realize their cars had been hit by bullets until they arrived home. They said the gunman fired a total of 20 to 30 rounds.

The patent for the ArmaLite AR15-style weapon is no longer in effect, so different gun manufacturers have been churning them out. It is the most popular gun on the market. Although gun manufacturers market it as a sporting rifle, it is not allowed for use as a hunting rifle in some states. The weapon is cheap, accurate, and extremely damaging. Here are the details on its features and some comments on why it is so popular among gun enthusiasts:

Apalachee shooter used an AR-15. Why are these weapons so popular for mass shootings?​

What is an AR-15 rifle?​

An AR-15 is a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle that has been called "America's rifle" by the NRA with well over 15 million sold by 2019. "Semi-automatic" means that the shooter must pull the trigger to fire each shot. The rifle then automatically reloads. An automatic weapon is one that continues to fire as long as you hold down the trigger, and is (mostly) banned in the U.S.

"AR-15s are the most commonly used rifles in marksmanship competitions, training, and home defense," according to the NRA. The Washington Post found that in 2023, about 1 in 20 U.S. adults owned an AR-15. The Post found that the weapon was used in at least 10 of the 17 deadliest mass shootings in America.

An AR-15 is not a specific model, but a style. It's the civilian variation of the ArmaLite AR-15, a variant of the AR-10 designed by Eugene Stoner in the 1950s, that was extremely lightweight, easy to care for and highly adaptable. ArmaLite sold the patent to Colt in the 1960s and they developed an automatic-fire version for the military called the M16. After Colt's patent ran out, other manufacturers began making their own versions.

Why is the AR-15 so popular?​

It's lightweight. It's rugged. It's accurate and has relatively little recoil. It's easy to modify, with plenty of accessories to make it more accurate, more comfortable, and more personal. Some gun owners enjoy a weapon that can be made to look like military hardware.

The NRA said "the AR-15 has soared in popularity" because it's "customizable, adaptable, reliable and accurate." It is also versatile and can be used for "sport shooting, hunting and self-defense situations," the NRA said, adding the ability to "personalize" so many of the rifle's components "is one of the things that makes it so unique." Note, hunting with the AR-15 is illegal in some states, including Florida.

Why is the AR-15 so dangerous?​

The AR-15 was designed to inflict what one of its designers called "maximum wound effect." AR-15s have a higher muzzle velocity than some other rifles and bullets leaving them at such a fast speed — nearly three times the speed of sound — cause more damage to bones and organs. AR-15 ammunition is also more likely to break apart inside a body, causing even more damage.

 

[David Young]

How badly do you want to reduce the statistic on young people and gunshot-wound deaths?

Here is a hypothetical case:

It is suggested that, if you throw all your efforts into a campaign which will involve giving up any current career or family plans, there is a fifty-fifty chance that gunshot-related deaths will no longer be in the top ten causes of death for children aged one to seventeen. However, the campaign will take a minimum of twenty-three years before it is known whether it turns out to be effective or not.

Would you get on board, with all the costs to yourself that it would involve?

 

[SkepticThinker]

There are plenty of preventable and unnatural deaths. However, preventing them normally involves doing something. Is doing something always a price worth paying?

For example, is attempting to persuade the majority of the population of every single American state to nullify an amendment to the constitution too much expenditure of time and resources? The alternative is to tolerate the loss of lives. I'm still in two minds as to whether this is something that should be in the huge category of things we simply tolerate or that smaller one of things we don't.

I don't understand how anyone could "tolerate" the mass killing of children on a fairly regular basis.