Gunshot wounds--leading cause of death for American children

[We Never Know]

Nobody is disputing that, so it is not relevant here.

Additionally, we disagree on whether AR-15 platform rifles should be banned. The country is flooded with that style of weapon, which I refer to as an "urban assault weapon", since they are based on, but not designed for, military use. At a minimum, some features of those weapons should be banned for the same reason that automatic weapons and other types of more lethal weaponry are banned. The hole we've dug ourselves into by allowing them for sale to the public is quite deep now, but it seems a good idea to stop digging and try to figure a way out of it. Urban assault weapons are a clear and present danger to public safety.

If people want to own them I have no problem with it.
The problem is them or any gun getting into the wrong hands.
IMO every record... criminal, medical and minor records should be used in a firearm background check.

It won't completely solve the problem of guns getting into the wrong hands but it will put up red flags and hopefully help stop little Billy who was in and out of psych wards as a minor from legally purchasing guns.

 

[an anarchist]

It is a debate forum, so I wasn't being unfair to you by dismissing your proposed solution. I stated my reasons as clearly as I could. If you disagree with my reasoning, nobody prevents you from saying why. I personally consider a lengthy discussion of free market fundamentalism or private schools a derail, but thread starters don't actually own threads or control what people can say.

Well can you address the point that government seems completely powerless or incapable of protecting school children? There are practically dozens of school shootings a year it seems, and the rate seems to only get worse.

Simply saying there are too many guns is not enough. The guns are here. Is the government incapable of protecting the children? I don’t think so, yet the children remain unprotected. Perhaps it is intentional to get people to want to give up their guns. But that gets into “conspiracy” territory and nobody on this site is fond of that so let’s not.

I am suggesting the free market can protect children despite the guns.

 

[metis]

Maybe we should consider what our Founding Fathers [and Mothers] were dealing with: single-shot muzzle loaders, not AR-15s.

 

[Copernicus]

If people want to own them I have no problem with it.

Well, I have a very strong problem with actually letting large numbers of people own them, because they facilitate the mass shootings that our country is plagued with on a daily basis. We can't control what people want, but we can control what they have access to. We do not permit them to own automatic weapons, but semiautomatic ones still pose a grave threat to public safety. If people cannot demonstrate a strong willingness to secure their weapons and keep them out of the hands of minors, then they should not be permitted to own weapons. Apparently, Colin Gray, the father of the Apalachee High School shooter was allowed to keep guns in his possession after admitting to police that his son had access to those guns. All of his weapons should have been confiscated at that point, and he should have been banned from buying or possessing guns.

The problem is them or any gun getting into the wrong hands.
IMO every record... criminal, medical and minor records should be used in a firearm background check.

OK, but it would be more sensible to register every gun owned by a civilian and license every owner of a gun. Training and insurance should be mandatory for gun owners. Secure storage should be mandated and regulations in place that govern the circumstances under which guns can be used. These kinds of regulations make much more sense than merely doing a background check, even if slightly more rigorous than the current practice. Such regulation would not prevent misuse of weapons, but it would help to make such misuse a lot rarer.

It won't completely solve the problem of guns getting into the wrong hands but it will put up red flags and hopefully help stop little Billy who was in and out of psych wards as a minor from legally purchasing guns.

Little Colt Gray was not in and out of any psych wards, nor are most of those young killers who shoot up schools. I don't think that background checks will do much at all to stop these school massacres. Colt's father put the gun in his son's hands, and he would have passed any background check you can come up with.

 

[We Never Know]

Well, I have a very strong problem with actually letting large numbers of people own them, because they facilitate the mass shootings that our country is plagued with on a daily basis. We can't control what people want, but we can control what they have access to. We do not permit them to own automatic weapons, but semiautomatic ones still pose a grave threat to public safety. If people cannot demonstrate a strong willingness to secure their weapons and keep them out of the hands of minors, then they should not be permitted to own weapons. Apparently, Colin Gray, the father of the Apalachee High School shooter was allowed to keep guns in his possession after admitting to police that his son had access to those guns. All of his weapons should have been confiscated at that point, and he should have been banned from buying or possessing guns.



OK, but it would be more sensible to register every gun owned by a civilian and license every owner of a gun. Training and insurance should be mandatory for gun owners. Secure storage should be mandated and regulations in place that govern the circumstances under which guns can be used. These kinds of regulations make much more sense than merely doing a background check, even if slightly more rigorous than the current practice. Such regulation would not prevent misuse of weapons, but it would help to make such misuse a lot rarer.



Little Colt Gray was not in and out of any psych wards, nor are most of those young killers who shoot up schools. I don't think that background checks will do much at all to stop these school massacres. Colt's father put the gun in his son's hands, and he would have passed any background check you can come up with.

We wouldn't know if little Colt Gray was because his medical and minor records aren't available for a firearm background check.

Same as we wouldn't know if any or how many of those shooters have red flags hiding in their medical and minor records.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm saying pistols/handguns cause more deaths but people go after rifles/long guns.

Handguns have been used in school shootings, too, most infamously the V Tech shooting where Cho murdered over 30 people. Using AR-15 style guns is a more recent trend starting in the 2010s or thereabouts, it seems. Probably correlates with those type of guns becoming popular in general, but I'm not sure. Spree shooters and mass shooters have used a wide variety of guns. There was a crazy French kid in the '90s who killed a bunch of people on a random shooting spree with a hunting rifle. Obviously there's mass stabbings, too. Basically society is just cracking up...

 

[Copernicus]

Well can you address the point that government seems completely powerless or incapable of protecting school children? There are practically dozens of school shootings a year it seems, and the rate seems to only get worse.

I agree, but the problem has skyrocketed in recent years. For example, see:

School Shootings by State​

Simply saying there are too many guns is not enough. The guns are here. Is the government incapable of protecting the children? I don’t think so, yet the children remain unprotected. Perhaps it is intentional to get people to want to give up their guns. But that gets into “conspiracy” territory and nobody on this site is fond of that so let’s not.

Nobody is saying that "simply saying there are too many guns is...enough." We agree that the government is capable of protecting children and that it is futile to try to solve the problem by getting people to want to give up their guns. So we aren't in disagreement on these points. You haven't made any concrete proposals on what steps the government can and should take, but I have been suggesting registration of weapons (like for cars), licensing (like for cars), training (like for cars), mandatory insurance (like for cars), and strict regulations for safe use (like for cars). All of these suggestions strike me as feasible and desirable, and I hope that most Americans would agree with having them.

I am suggesting the free market can protect children despite the guns.

The marketplace will do whatever allows it to make profits for business owners, and it is doing that right now. Gun sales are not heavily restricted, so the country is flooded with guns. What regulations do exist are relatively easy to get around, even when they are blatantly illegal (e.g. straw purchases).

 

[Copernicus]

We wouldn't know if little Colt Gray was because his medical and minor records aren't available for a firearm background check.

Same as we wouldn't know if any or how many of those shooters have red flags hiding in their medical and minor records.

I don't oppose the minor regulations that you favor. I just don't think they would do much of anything at all to fix the problem. If "little Colt Gray" had been found to be "psych clinic free", his father, who would have no red flags against him, would still have given little Colt the gun for Christmas.

 

[David Young]

Here is your answer: I consider those deaths entirely preventable and unnatural. Deaths of innocent children are horrific, especially if they are preventable. Therefore, I find them intolerable.

There is the answer you requested. Now where is the one I requested? Do you agree with me that they are intolerable, or do you think they are tolerable?

There are plenty of preventable and unnatural deaths. However, preventing them normally involves doing something. Is doing something always a price worth paying?

For example, is attempting to persuade the majority of the population of every single American state to nullify an amendment to the constitution too much expenditure of time and resources? The alternative is to tolerate the loss of lives. I'm still in two minds as to whether this is something that should be in the huge category of things we simply tolerate or that smaller one of things we don't.

 

[Kathryn]

If people want to own them I have no problem with it.
The problem is them or any gun getting into the wrong hands.
IMO every record... criminal, medical and minor records should be used in a firearm background check.

It won't completely solve the problem of guns getting into the wrong hands but it will put up red flags and hopefully help stop little Billy who was in and out of psych wards as a minor from legally purchasing guns.

Right on. I believe they should run a complete background check on everyone who lives in a particular household.

 

[We Never Know]

Right on. I believe they should run a complete background check on everyone who lives in a particular household.

A gun should be locked up to where the only way anyone else can get it is for the gun owner to get it out.

That way it can't accidentally get into the wrong hands.

 

[Kathryn]

A gun should be locked up to where the only way anyone else can get it is for the gun owner to get it out.

That way it can't accidentally get into the wrong hands.

I totally agree about that as well.

 

[Copernicus]

There are plenty of preventable and unnatural deaths. However, preventing them normally involves doing something. Is doing something always a price worth paying?

For example, is attempting to persuade the majority of the population of every single American state to nullify an amendment to the constitution too much expenditure of time and resources? The alternative is to tolerate the loss of lives. I'm still in two minds as to whether this is something that should be in the huge category of things we simply tolerate or that smaller one of things we don't.

I'd like to say that that struck me as a satisfactory answer, but I can't say that it did. The question was whether you thought it tolerable that gunshot wounds had risen to be a leading cause of death in young Americans. Basically, you are saying that you can't decide. I had no difficulty in deciding.

 

[Kathryn]

I'd like to say that that struck me as a satisfactory answer, but I can't say that it did. The question was whether you thought it tolerable that gunshot wounds had risen to be a leading cause of death in young Americans. Basically, you are saying that you can't decide. I had no difficulty in deciding.

I had a friend once who had a son who was six years old. A mutual friend picked him up from school and the boy, who was sitting in the front seat, reached under the seat and pulled out a gun and shot himself in the chest and died. It was horrible all the way around! I can't imagine being that mother, or the friend of the mother, or the child for that matter!

 

[Copernicus]

I had a friend once who had a son who was six years old. A mutual friend picked him up from school and the boy, who was sitting in the front seat, reached under the seat and pulled out a gun and shot himself in the chest and died. It was horrible all the way around! I can't imagine being that mother, or the friend of the mother, or the child for that matter!

Unfortunately, most American families seem to be able to come up with anecdotes like this one. Very few people buy guns to harm themselves or anyone else, but it is so easy for that gun to end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Over half of all intimate partner homicides are committed with guns, according to this source:

Domestic Violence and Firearms​

 

[Kathryn]

Unfortunately, most American families seem to be able to come up with anecdotes like this one. Very few people buy guns to harm themselves or anyone else, but it is so easy for that gun to end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Over half of all intimate partner homicides are committed with guns, according to this source:

Domestic Violence and Firearms​

I really do think that is horrible. Guns are too easy to get in US society. And they are too easy to own!

 

[David Young]

I'd like to say that that struck me as a satisfactory answer, but I can't say that it did. The question was whether you thought it tolerable that gunshot wounds had risen to be a leading cause of death in young Americans. Basically, you are saying that you can't decide. I had no difficulty in deciding.

If the leading cause of death in young Americans were gunshot wounds inflicted with legally owned firearms in the possession of individuals who had a legal right not to submit to any kind of psychiatric evaluation as a precondition to owning a firearm, I would definitely call that intolerable. If it were self-inflicted gunshot wounds, I would see it as one of the many unpleasant things in life we just tolerate. If it were young Americans being fatally shot as a result of illegal activities they were engaged in, with no innocent bystanders harmed in the process, I would see it as something to celebrate.

I would want to know more of the breakdown of whose guns are being used against whom and why.

 

[metis]

One of my cousins was a police officer in Detroit and lived there, and when he came home from work, he took his gun and put it in a lockbox and the bullets, and he put in a safe. He saw too many other households where accidental and sometimes intentional deaths occurred because of an argument whereas the guns were not secured or a child finding a gun thinking it was a toy.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't think you will find that guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

Are Guns the Leading Cause of Death for Children in the US?

Motor vehicle-related crashes used to be the leading cause of death among children and teens.

www.snopes.com

In a way we have hung and fileted our journalists, and that is why CNN/Fox/NPR/DemocracyNow/Huffpost etc. is a barrel of monkeys. They don't report. They spin.

The start of a new school year begins with the mass shooting at a Georgia high school. The shooter was just 14 years old. This is intolerable. Guns have become the leading cause of death for American children.

As guns rise to leading cause of death among US children, research funding to help prevent and protect victims lags​

I would consider compromise on gun rights for the sake of children. I think it would involve more than gun rights though probably some kind of stop and frisk for all citizens. A state could demand that all freight in and out was inspected for weapons and all autos inspected for weapons. You could actually have people get out and search their vehicles at the borders or scan autos using technology such as high frequency radio. Perhaps all citizens would be stopped and frisked at random when going in and out of establishments, or you could add metal detectors to most businesses. We could reverse free borders between the states and introduce check points. That would eliminate guns.

What is at the heart of the changes in this country that have lead to so many undisciplined students and hence school shootings? Both parents usually have to work, to make enough to live. Children require time, and parents don't have enough time. Women also are shamed for staying at home and are expected to balance career and family. Society is chided for not having more women in the workplace. This benefits corporations and cheapens labor but is having a detrimental impact on children. Divorce has become common. Having two stable parents is becoming legendary. Many things are going wrong, and school shootings are related.

 

[Kathryn]

What is at the heart of the changes in this country that have lead to so many undisciplined students and hence school shootings? Both parents usually have to work, to make enough to live. Children require time, and parents don't have enough time. Women also are shamed for staying at home and are expected to balance career and family. Society is chided for not having more women in the workplace. This benefits corporations and cheapens labor but is having a detrimental impact on children. Divorce has become common. Having two stable parents is becoming legendary. Many things are going wrong, and school shootings are related.

I agree with this and I thank God every single day that all my eight grandkids are homeschooled and that none of my kids are divorced. Also, though it required sacrifice, I am thankful that both my daughters were able and willing to stay home with their kids.