Gunshot wounds--leading cause of death for American children

[Twilight Hue]

Texas law is 21 years if age to legally drink.

I think most all states, if not all, 21 its the legal age, even for service members.

That's not true and true at the same time.

Service members can drink on base , but off base they'll have to be 21. At least that's how I remember it as being the case.

 

[Copernicus]

Handguns/pistols are responsible for more deaths than rifles/long guns.

But most everyone goes after rifles/long guns.

Could be because the AR-15 platform rifles seem to be favored by terrorists intent on mass murder for some of their features. Teenage boys and collectors may also like them because of their must-have prestige value. It is not for nothing that they have been called "America's favorite gun". Handguns are probably better for suicides, robberies, muggings, and carjacking. Different needs may drive purchasing decisions.

 

[Pogo]

What I don't understand is why the active gunman procedure seems to be to hole up and hide in classrooms and just wait around for outside help that probably isn't coming, instead of like, immediately evacuating the building out the windows or something.

When I was a kid in school like, 35 years ago, our fire drill procedure was the get to the back of the classroom so we could start helping each other out the window.

one of those schools all on a ground floor with a central hall. Popular style for a few years but expensive and inefficient to build and maintain, not appropriate for many climates. Though even better is the true South West style with no internal halls just doors to the outside.
Anyhow. if we built them that way the police wouldn't even have to wait outside, they could actually engage. Yeah, but then we have to build a fence and moat so we can have a real portcullis with guard towers and snipers.

 

[Pogo]

Of most places you mentioned in your list, most people run and scatter. In school like you say, not so much. Not saying it would be better if they did


TBH I dont remember fire drills, but what you mention probably wasn't for second floor classes.

No fire drills were exit the building by all of those exits that allow the shooters in today.

 

[Copernicus]

The 14 year old shooter's father has been arrested, because he had purchased the weapon in 2023 and given it to his child for a birthday present, knowing that the child was fascinated with school shootings. The police had visited him in that year because of complaints about threats from his son, so he can't say he was not aware of the danger. Second-degree murder are among the charges, but the headline only mentions the manslaughter charges.

Georgia school shooting live updates: Suspect's father arrested and charged with involuntary manslaughter​

• Two students and two teachers were killed in the shooting yesterday at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia, Nine others were injured.
• The 14-year-old suspect, Colt Gray, who used an AR-style weapon in the shooting, surrendered immediately and was taken into custody within minutes. He was charged with four counts of murder today.
• He was investigated last year in connection with threats to carry out a school shooting.
• The suspect's father, Colin Gray, 54, was arrested on four counts of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second-degree murder and eight counts of cruelty to children, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation said today.
• The suspect was a new student at Apalachee High, having only been there for a partial day. The day of the shooting was his first full day at the school, Barrow County Sheriff Jud Smith said.
• The Georgia Bureau of Investigation identified the victims killed as Mason Schermerhorn, 14; Christian Angulo, 14; Christina Irimie, 53; and Richard Aspinwall, 39.
• The nine wounded victims were expected to recover.

 

[McBell]

• The nine wounded victims were expected to recover.

What changed?
And for how many of them?

 

[Pogo]

What is there even to say at this point? Freedumb?

Oh, I forgot, there is even an anthem, not quite 50th anniversary, but I'm sure it will still be current.

 

[We Never Know]

Could be because the AR-15 platform rifles seem to be favored by terrorists intent on mass murder for some of their features. Teenage boys and collectors may also like them because of their must-have prestige value. It is not for nothing that they have been called "America's favorite gun". Handguns are probably better for suicides, robberies, muggings, and carjacking. Different needs may drive purchasing decisions.

When I said 'go after' I'm referring to wanting to ban them, etc.

Handguns/pistols are responsible for more deaths than rifles/long guns.

But most everyone goes after rifles/long guns.

 

[Copernicus]

When I said 'go after' I'm referring to wanting to ban them, etc.

You oppose banning urban assault weapons? I wasn't reading that into your post, but thanks for clarifying. I'm guessing that you think they are worth the risk that they seem to pose to schools and shopping malls. Myself, I'm thinking they aren't. I'd like to see the number of almost daily mass shootings ramped down and made a little more difficult for the shooters.

 

[oldbadger]

The start of a new school year begins with the mass shooting at a Georgia high school. The shooter was just 14 years old. This is intolerable. Guns have become the leading cause of death for American children.

As guns rise to leading cause of death among US children, research funding to help prevent and protect victims lags​

Dreadful situation. True.
Because any gun legislation seems to be difficult to gain in the USA, it might be a good idea to spend more money on Access Control in to all schools. That would be expensive but it would be well worth it.

On another website I was reading posts about the same subject and a Texan gun collector posted a picture of a large billboard in the grounds of his local school.... it showed a tough looking man with holstered revolvers saying something like 'Come for trouble and you'll find it!' This was going to solve all the problems, he explained.
But the really sad thing about that picture was that in the background could be seen the school's perimeter fence, a shabby rotten old wooden erection about 4' high. That picture told me quite a lot. Unfortunately it will cost a great deal of money to protect each and every school fully.

In the UK our access control should be tightened up massively, but at least most of our perimeter fencing is strong. Not only are most schools surrounded by high chainlink fencing with secured fire egress doors, but where school playing and sports fields abut on to public roads the fencing is layered with 'screening' which lets wind through whilst hindering vision from outside.

 

[David Young]

Copernicus, suppose I don't feel like answering your question until I get an answer to mine. Would it therefore follow that you are not going to tell me why you think the situation is intolerable?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Copernicus, suppose I don't feel like answering your question until I get an answer to mine. Would it therefore follow that you are not going to tell me why you think the situation is intolerable?

This is one of the weirdest strategies I've heard to try and obfuscate debate about gun violence.

 

[We Never Know]

You oppose banning urban assault weapons? I wasn't reading that into your post, but thanks for clarifying. I'm guessing that you think they are worth the risk that they seem to pose to schools and shopping malls. Myself, I'm thinking they aren't. I'd like to see the number of almost daily mass shootings ramped down and made a little more difficult for the shooters.

I'm saying pistols/handguns cause more deaths but people go after rifles/long guns.

 

[an anarchist]

Why do people keep sending their kids to public schools? The government has proven they are utterly incapable of protecting school children in a school environment. One might think they just let it keep happening…

As a proponent of everything free market, I imagine that a competitive free market school system would be more safe. If a company fails to protects their clients (school children) from shootings, then the market would respond. The end result would be the spontaneous nature of the market formulating a safe system for children in the name of customer retention.

 

[Kathryn]

That's not true and true at the same time.

Service members can drink on base , but off base they'll have to be 21. At least that's how I remember it as being the case.

All I know is that it's legal to drink with an adult if you are underage, in Texas.

 

[Copernicus]

Luckily, your post followed mine directly, David, so it is reasonable to assume that the question was addressed to me. Quick question: Do you believe that Americans should find it tolerable that gunshot wounds are the/a leading cause of death in our youth? (Apparently, some folks here still think that vehicle deaths are more lethal, so the thread title is misleadingly alarmist to them.) To get at the "why", we need to address what standards of 'tolerable' we are dealing with.

Copernicus, suppose I don't feel like answering your question until I get an answer to mine. Would it therefore follow that you are not going to tell me why you think the situation is intolerable?

David, when you reply to me, please quote the post you are replying to so that I don't have to go back and manually search for the thread of our conversation. I have inserted the post of mine that you replied to in the above quote so that people can see what you were talking about.

I did not mean to avoid answering your question. It was obvious in the OP that I felt it intolerable that the magnitude of child deaths from gunshot wounds had risen to the point where it is a leading cause of death in American children, if not the leading cause (depending on how one defines "children"). I just wanted to verify that you understood that and were asking why I found that fact "intolerable". Is that what you are asking me???


Here is your answer: I consider those deaths entirely preventable and unnatural. Deaths of innocent children are horrific, especially if they are preventable. Therefore, I find them intolerable.

There is the answer you requested. Now where is the one I requested? Do you agree with me that they are intolerable, or do you think they are tolerable?

 

[Copernicus]

I'm saying pistols/handguns cause more deaths but people go after rifles/long guns.

Nobody is disputing that, so it is not relevant here.

Additionally, we disagree on whether AR-15 platform rifles should be banned. The country is flooded with that style of weapon, which I refer to as an "urban assault weapon", since they are based on, but not designed for, military use. At a minimum, some features of those weapons should be banned for the same reason that automatic weapons and other types of more lethal weaponry are banned. The hole we've dug ourselves into by allowing them for sale to the public is quite deep now, but it seems a good idea to stop digging and try to figure a way out of it. Urban assault weapons are a clear and present danger to public safety.

 

[Copernicus]

Why do people keep sending their kids to public schools? The government has proven they are utterly incapable of protecting school children in a school environment. One might think they just let it keep happening…

Public education is not the cause of the problem. The danger to public school children is unique to the United States, and I think most of us attribute it to the availability of lethal weapons to teenagers rather than a government-run school system. If children can get their hands on lethal weapons, there will be deaths in schools from gunshot wounds regardless of whether the schools are public or private.

As a proponent of everything free market, I imagine that a competitive free market school system would be more safe. If a company fails to protects their clients (school children) from shootings, then the market would respond. The end result would be the spontaneous nature of the market formulating a safe system for children in the name of customer retention.

Most people are not proponents of "everything free market", and this thread is not appropriate for a debate on free market fundamentalism or privatizing public schools. Your putative solution to the problem strikes me as seriously flawed, not just because it incorrectly diagnoses the cause of the problem, but because the implementation would be highly disruptive and impractical.

 

[an anarchist]

and this thread is not appropriate for a debate on free market fundamentalism or privatizing public schools. Your putative solution to the problem strikes me as seriously flawed, not just because it incorrectly diagnoses the cause of the problem, but because the implementation would be highly disruptive and impractical.

Umm, sorry (not sorry), I was under the impression that we could discuss possible solutions to the problem.

Your overt dismissal of my contribution is unfair. Just because you don’t think it is a valid solution does not mean it is not a valid solution not worthy of discussion.

This is a thread in the debate forum, so check yourself.

 

[Copernicus]

Umm, sorry (not sorry), I was under the impression that we could discuss possible solutions to the problem.

Your overt dismissal of my contribution is unfair. Just because you don’t think it is a valid solution does not mean it is not a valid solution not worthy of discussion.

This is a thread in the debate forum, check yourself.

It is a debate forum, so I wasn't being unfair to you by dismissing your proposed solution. I stated my reasons as clearly as I could. If you disagree with my reasoning, nobody prevents you from saying why. I personally consider a lengthy discussion of free market fundamentalism or private schools a derail, but thread starters don't actually own threads or control what people can say.