Halloween - Harmless or Harmful Fun?

[cablescavenger]

All I'm saying is that the basis of Halloween and the Druidic Religion seems to be enmeshed in Human Sacrifice, Cannibalism, and Blood orgies.

You are right, that sounds pretty religious to me, and I have a similar tale to tell.

Some trick and treaters knocked my door and the wife answered. We had no sweets for them. So they tricked my wife. They spit roast her over an open fire and ate her. The little monkeys!

 

[Revoltingest]

it is also a major satanic ritual day. It’s a religious holiday for the underworld, with satanists performing sacrifices and witches celebrating with prayer circles. When the druids celebrated halloween, they roamed the streets with lanterns, and on coming to a house, they demanded money as an offering for Satan.
its funny how we think we are so different to the people who lived so long before us ....same pagan rituals, different time and place.

A revolting ode to helping others get over religion during the best of hollidays

You say that it was what it was.
And even if you're right it does
not matter to me.
It is what it be....
all costumes & spiders with fuzz.

 

[A. T. Henderson]

Can you get some actual examples of these lies? I suppose the Greeks were lying too by this logic, now were they enemies with the Celts as well?

No, but they were the slaves of the Romans. As regards the inaccuracy of Roman accounts of their enemies, where to begin? Most of what Caesar (from whom almost all of what the Romans knew about the Druids came) claimed about the Druids was likely pieced together from rumour, with the gaps filled in using what he knew about Roman hierarchical systems.

It's not actually likely that the Druids were so powerful in Celtic culture as he claimed, and there's no known archaeological evidence for the alleged "wicker man" that I've ever heard of: only Caesar and Strabo even mention it.

As for Celtic culture in general, the Romans dismissed them, as they did all non-Roman cultures, as barbaric. They thought of them as savage, bloodthirsty primitives, beneath contempt. We know now that this was just Roman prejudice, and that Celtic culture was highly developed, with advanced philosophical and legal systems, and even civil rights.

As for the Archaelogists, try clicking back a few pages to the link I provided. NVM, here it is.

Druids Committed Human Sacrifice, Cannibalism?

Oh Jesus, National Geographic? They're only just above the bloody History channel for the level of sensationalism they cram into their shows.

Regardless, the link you provided actually does little to support your claims regarding Samhuin, all it shows is that the Celts practised human sacrifice (on probably willing victims), as I was quite happy to admit. All pagan cultures performed human sacrifices in one form or another. I'm just pointing out that human sacrifice was probably not the focus of the Samhuin ceremonies.

And Pliny the Elder isn't exactly the best source for accurate information on anything. That guy claimed that the Moon was bigger than the Earth, ffs.

Can you provide a link to back this claim?

Not directly, no, but look up "Terry Jones' Barbarians". It's a BBC2 show made a few years ago, which dispels a lot of the claims made by people like the Romans.

 

[Shermana]

The Romans and Greeks did both say,
That on the Celtic Samhain day,
They'd roast and toast
and have cause to boast
over the skins of the victim's they'd flay,
And to make their crops bud,
They'd revel in blood,
And to their gods thus they'd pray,
But these pagans all deny,
Calling Roman histories a lie,
Though the record now shows,
They wrote truth about their foes,
Though we did not see em
The Romans did the same with their Coliseum.

 

[Shermana]

No, but they were the slaves of the Romans. As regards the inaccuracy of Roman accounts of their enemies, where to begin? Most of what Caesar (from whom almost all of what the Romans knew about the Druids came) claimed about the Druids was likely pieced together from rumour, with the gaps filled in using what he knew about Roman hierarchical systems.

Okay, so that's a refusal to get an actual source for your claims as well as to examine the source I provided.

It's not actually likely that the Druids were so powerful in Celtic culture as he claimed, and there's no known archaeological evidence for the alleged "wicker man" that I've ever heard of: only Caesar and Strabo even mention it.

I didn't mention the Wicker man, I mentioned Tacticus and Pliny the Elder's (and the Greek) accounts of the more bloody types of Slaughter.

As for Celtic culture in general, the Romans dismissed them, as they did all non-Roman cultures, as barbaric. They thought of them as savage, bloodthirsty primitives, beneath contempt. We know now that this was just Roman prejudice, and that Celtic culture was highly developed, with advanced philosophical and legal systems, and even civil rights.

Okay, so that's a refusal to provide evidence of other accounts where you claim the Romans told lies. If you've read anything else about the Early Celts and their practices regarding their other activities, you might call them slightly barbaric as well, I suppose you think they were more cultured than their neighbors the Teutons? Or were the accounts of the Teutons all made up too?

Oh Jesus, National Geographic? They're only just above the bloody History channel for the level of sensationalism they cram into their shows.

Ummm, National Geographic is simply reporting the findings of these Archaeologists, and if you dismiss them as a source outright without a source of your own, that's all you.

Regardless, the link you provided actually does little to support your claims regarding Samhuin, all it shows is that the Celts practised human sacrifice (on probably willing victims), as I was quite happy to admit. All pagan cultures performed human sacrifices in one form or another. I'm just pointing out that human sacrifice was probably not the focus of the Samhuin ceremonies.

You've provided absolutely nothing, and it's not just the Romans. The Greeks too. They weren't at war with the Celts now were they? What reason did the Greeks have to say that Samhain involved human sacrifice? I don't see why my links have provided little, meanwhile you have provided nothing.

And Pliny the Elder isn't exactly the best source for accurate information on anything. That guy claimed that the Moon was bigger than the Earth, ffs.

So who is? Please give some examples of reliable sources. Comparing his estimate to the size of the moon is a telling example of your ability to compare.

Not directly, no, but look up "Terry Jones' Barbarians". It's a BBC2 show made a few years ago, which dispels a lot of the claims made by people like the Romans.

You're new here i can tell, you have to actually post a link that anyone can see if you want to use it as evidence.

 

[A. T. Henderson]

You're new here i can tell, you have to actually post a link that anyone can see if you want to use it as evidence.

I may be new here, but a link to a National Geographic article hyping up one of their own shows doesn't strike me as compelling evidence for your case, especially since their show wasn't about Samhuin.

Terry Jones' Barbarians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There you go.

 

[Revoltingest]

All I'm saying is that the basis of Halloween and the Druidic Religion seems to be enmeshed in Human Sacrifice, Cannibalism, and Blood orgies.

Hah! We know who the real servants of darkness are in the modern world!
[youtube]byBkRXBNK4Q[/youtube]
Jewish Woman Admits To Sacrificing A Baby On Oprah! - YouTube

 

[Shermana]

What part about "The national geographic is just reporting the Archaeologists" findings didn't register?

 

[A. T. Henderson]

I didn't mention the Wicker man, I mentioned Tacticus and Pliny the Elder's (and the Greek) accounts of the more bloody types of Slaughter.

Neither of whom ever met a Celt. Their accounts were based almost entirely on those of Caesar.

If you've read anything else about the Early Celts and their practices regarding their other activities, you might call them slightly barbaric as well, I suppose you think they were more cultured than their neighbors the Teutons? Or were the accounts of the Teutons all made up too?

Quite possibly. That's the trouble with only having the written records of one side left.

Ummm, National Geographic is simply reporting the findings of these Archaeologists, and if you dismiss them as a source outright without a source of your own, that's all you.

They don't simply "report", any more than Fox news does. They sensationalise, because that's how you get audience numbers up.

You've provided absolutely nothing, and it's not just the Romans. The Greeks too. They weren't at war with the Celts now were they? What reason did the Greeks have to say that Samhain involved human sacrifice?

They got all their information regarding it from the Romans. Who were their masters. And whom they had to do as much as possible to please and flatter.

I don't see why my links have provided little, meanwhile you have provided nothing.
So who is? Please give some examples of reliable sources. Comparing his estimate to the size of the moon is a telling example of your ability to compare.

You mean "link". Pliny the Elder is unreliable on practically everything he wrote about. He's only given regard because he was one of very, very few "historians" around at the time. And given that he was wrong about the Moon, which he could see, and which the Greeks had already accurately estimated the size of, how reliable can he be considered regarding events he never witnessed at all?

 

[Shermana]

Hah! We know who the real servants of darkness are in the modern world!
[youtube]byBkRXBNK4Q[/youtube]
Jewish Woman Admits To Sacrificing A Baby On Oprah! - YouTube

I dare not speak my feelings on 80% of my ethnic brethren.

 

[A. T. Henderson]

What part about "The national geographic is just reporting the Archaeologists" findings didn't register?

The part where National Geographic "just reports".

 

[Flankerl]

Yeah lets take the words of the romans or the greek. Its like you thought the greek had a stick up their a** but then the romans came around and their stick was even bigger.
For the romans every single culture outside of their own borders was no culture at all.

Their propaganda made carthage into the worst place the world has ever seen.

But yeah lets believe them.


Also congratulations on starting such a stupid thread. :clap

 

[Shermana]

Yeah lets take the words of the romans or the greek. Its like you thought the greek had a stick up their a** but then the romans came around and their stick was even bigger.
For the romans every single culture outside of their own borders was no culture at all.

Their propaganda made carthage into the worst place the world has ever seen.

But yeah lets believe them.


Also congratulations on starting such a stupid thread. :clap

bensozia

Some enlightenment historians pooh-poohed stories of infant sacrifice in Carthage, calling them Greek or Roman propaganda. But when archaeologists excavated in the tophet, the sacred precinct of Carthage, they found there thousands of tiny burned skeletons, placed in urns and capped with grave stones that described these children as offerings to Ba'al Hammon and Tanit, king and queen of the Carthaginian gods. Many of the grave stelae were carved with the solar disk of Ba'al Hammon and crescent moon of Tanit, giving them an eerie resemblance to new age post cards. Most of the victims were less than six months old, but some were as old as three years. In only one way did the archaeology mitigate the harsh picture of frequent baby sacrifice drawn by the Greek and Romans: forensic study of the few well-preserved bones showed that the infants had been dead when they were burned. Most likely, their throats were cut, like lambs, before they were consigned to the sacred flames.

 

[Shermana]

From the Terry Jones' Barbarians:

Jones argues that the ancient Greeks and Persians were in reality far from the Roman view of them as effeminate and addicted to luxury. The Greeks valued science and mathematics, while the Persians had initially allowed multiculturalism among the different ethnic groups of its empire (until years of war with Rome)

How does that prove that the Greeks weren't effeminate and addicted to luxury? Valuing Science and Math makes them not effiminate and addicted to luxury? Since when? This is a credible source?

 

[A. T. Henderson]

bensozia

Child sacrifice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, recent archaeological work has produced a detailed breakdown of the age of the buried children and based on this, and especially on the presence of pre natal individuals - that is still births, it is also argued that this site is consistent with the burial of children who had died from natural causes in a society that had a high infant mortality rate - as Carthage is assumed to have been. I.e. this data supports the view that Tophets were cemeteries for those who died shortly before or after birth, regardless of the cause.

 

[A. T. Henderson]

From the Terry Jones' Barbarians:

How does that prove that the Greeks weren't effeminate and addicted to luxury? Valuing Science and Math makes them not effiminate and addicted to luxury? Since when? This is a credible source?

Not really, no, it's a link to the wiki page about the show. For the actual evidence, you'll have to watch the show or read the book. Not everything is on the internet.

 

[Shermana]

The word "Tophet" means "Roasting place".

And if Carthage had a particularly high infant mortality rate, I imagine the Roman accounts of it being a s---hole may not be too far from the truth.

 

[A. T. Henderson]

The word "Tophet" means "Roasting place".

According to the Hebrew bible. Again, a really reliable source as regards their enemies, the Hebrews.

 

[A. T. Henderson]

And if Carthage had a particularly high infant mortality rate, I imagine the Roman accounts of it being a s---hole may not be too far from the truth.

High infant mortality rates were not exactly uncommon in the ancient world, you know. They weren't exactly uncommon up until the 20th Century, as a matter of fact.

I would say that the fact that the Carthaginians took the trouble to bury their stillborn children with due ceremony shows a fairly high level of sophistication, not to say humanity.

 

[Shermana]

According to the Hebrew bible. Again, a really reliable source as regards their enemies, the Hebrews.

Umm, you mean according to the Hebrew language?

You can't just write off multiple accounts of anyone's enemy as propaganda, especially if you have no counter evidence. Why would Philo be against the Carthaganians?

Child sacrifice

Carthage was described by its competitors as practicing child sacrifice. Plutarch (ca. 46–120 AD) mentions the practice, as do Tertullian, Orosius, Diodorus Siculus and Philo. However, Livy and Polybius do not. The Hebrew Bible also mentions what appears to be child sacrifice practiced at a place called the Tophet ("roasting place") by the Canaanites, related to the Carthaginians, although there is to date no evidence of human sacrifice among the Canaanites.

In former times they (the Carthaginians) had been accustomed to sacrifice to this god the noblest of their sons, but more recently, secretly buying and nurturing children, they had sent these to the sacrifice.[3]
​

Some of these sources suggest that babies were roasted to death on a heated bronze statue. According to Diodorus Siculus, "There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire."[3]
The accuracy of such stories is disputed by some modern historians and archaeologists.[4][5] Nevertheless, several apparent "Tophets" have been identified, chiefly a large one in Carthage, dubbed the "Tophet of Salammbó", after the neighbourhood where it was unearthed in 1921.[6]
Sites within Carthage and other Phoenician centers revealed the remains of infants and children in large numbers; many historians interpret this as evidence for frequent and prominent child sacrifice to the god Ba'al Hammon.
Greek, Roman and Israelite writers refer to Phoenician child sacrifice.[citation needed] However, some historians have disputed this interpretation, suggesting instead that these were resting places for children miscarried or who died in infancy.[citation needed] The debate is ongoing among modern archeologists and historians.[citation needed] Skeptics suggest that the bodies of children found in Carthaginian and Phoenician cemeteries were merely the cremated remains of children that died naturally.[7] Sergio Ribichini has argued that the Tophet was "a child necropolis designed to receive the remains of infants who had died prematurely of sickness or other natural causes, and who for this reason were "offered" to specific deities and buried in a place different from the one reserved for the ordinary dead".[8]
According to Lawrence and Wolff there is a consensus among scholars is that Carthaginian children were sacrificed by their parents, who would make a vow to kill the next child if the gods would grant them a favor: for instance that their shipment of goods were to arrive safely in a foreign port.[9] They placed their children alive in the arms of a bronze statue of:
“ the lady Tanit ... . The hands of the statue extended over a brazier into which the child fell once the flames had caused the limbs to contract and its mouth to open ... . The child was alive and conscious when burned ... Philo specified that the sacrificed child was best-loved.[10] ” Later commentators have compared the accounts of child sacrifice in the Old Testament with similar ones from Greek and Latin sources speaking of the offering of children by fire as sacrifices in the Punic city of Carthage, which was a Phoenician colony. Cleitarchus, Diodorus Siculus and Plutarch all mention burning of children as an offering to Cronus or Saturn, that is to Ba`al Hammon, the chief god of Carthage. Issues and practices relating to Moloch and child sacrifice may also have been overemphasized for effect. After the Romans finally defeated Carthage and totally destroyed the city, they engaged in post-war propaganda to make their arch enemies seem cruel and less civilized.