Hamas, innocent Palestinians, and the UN

[Sargonski]

I give an example.
I know Libya very well, because it used to be allied to my country, before the Libyan Civil War.
Terrorists (whose ideological base is radicalism and fundamentalism) destroy. Their purpose is to to destroy prosperous countries.
So...since they destroyed Libya, I am convinced they want to destroy Israel as well.

Do civilians support Hamas? If they support and harbor Hamas terrorists, what shall I think of them? Tell me.

First you Agree Perfectly that deliberately targeting and killing civilians is wrong and anyone thinks otherwise is double standard.

I say: False "you are an apologist for the deliberate targeting and killing of civilians in Gaza - trying to claim these are "Human Shields" - "Collatoral Damage" or some other genocide apology trope."

after which your post above apologizes for the deliberate targeting and killing of civilians in Gaza .. using some of the standard lies as justification and an irrelevant war in Libya.

OK -- Summary .. Contradicting your initial claim you do not disagree with targeting and killing civilians .. do not think it is wrong .. except when it is the side you are rooting for

Thanks for the clarification friend and resident supporter cheerleader and apologist for War Crimes and Crimes against humanity. Most civilians do not support Hamas .. but even if they had voted for Hamas .. collective punishment is still a war crime .. and violation of Rule of Law - one person not to be punished for the action of another. .. but the justification is a big lie to begin with so we need not consider its relevance to the situation .. "War Crime" .. Massive Crimes against Humanity .. Should have another Neuremburg trial after this war .. put Biden in the Penalty Box with Bibi .. Complicity in crime.

 

[Sargonski]

I think it would be better if Israel occupied it and the Arabs be given their own land in Syria and Egypt.

That may well be the case .. if the Arab world would accept such a thing .. Don't think that is the case unfortunately. Egypt don't wan't them and that is the only Border. And why would Syria take more Sunni Terrorists ? did you miss most of the last decade .. where Syria - Iran, and later Russia were fighting a huge war against Sunni Islamist Terrorists .. so that makes no sense.

So .. that option out the window .. what to do about these massive Israeli War Crimes against the Palestinians in the region. and also the Occupied Territories.... where over 100 Palestinians have been killed due to Israeli Pograms === another ethnic cleansing war crime.

We need to help the Palestinians fight against the foreign invader and occupying terrorists .. support their right to self defence against this illegal occupation .. get the US dog in the Middle east back on its leash before we have a wider conflict leading to nuclear war.

At minimum we need to withdraw all support for Israel in this war and join with the UN and the rest of the world in putting maximum sanctions on Israel .. sieze the assets of many of its rich citizens and Oligarchs ... like we did to Russians.. in complete violation of international law but this is what happens when you throw out the rule book and it comes back to bite.

My guess is that would get these extremist Zionist nut hounds back in line.

 

[England my lionheart]

Your right,nobody wants the Palestinians,Jardan have two refugee camps full of them,all the billions in aid wasted aid for Palestine wasted,education is non existent apart from “from the river to the sea” rubbish.

What we really need to do is accept NATO is impotent and support Israel to the fullest extent ,destroy Hamas and the Islamic Jihad,get the leaders of Hamas who are safely ensconced in a 5 star hotel and put them on trial,as a bonus take out Hezbollah.

 

[Sargonski]

Your right,nobody wants the Palestinians,Jardan have two refugee camps full of them,all the billions in aid wasted aid for Palestine wasted,education is non existent apart from “from the river to the sea” rubbish.

What we really need to do is accept NATO is impotent and support Israel to the fullest extent ,destroy Hamas and the Islamic Jihad,get the leaders of Hamas who are safely ensconced in a 5 star hotel and put them on trial,as a bonus take out Hezbollah.

"Who is Right" you must have misunderstood something ? Your idea for to support Israel in the commision of massive war crimes - genocide and ethnic cleansing .. is a bad one .. one I do not support.

While I agree that we need to put Hezbollah to the neuremburg Trial -- same needs ot be done with Bibi and friends. Should have been done long ago .. ***mod edit***

 

[Sargonski]

So it's about Jerusalem?
Well...The Turks stole Constantinople from the Greeks. The Greeks have forgiven them.

Because they are Christians. Christians believe in forgiveness.
And now Turkey and Greece are in good terms.

By the way, Greeks founded Byzantium in the VIII century BC. 2000 years of Greek history.

and good for the Greeks ! .. Greeks are also believed to be the forebearers of the Phonicians --- who end up being referred to as one of the Canaanite groups .. just if you go back far enough .. the Israelites are Canaanites .. and in particular Jerusalem .. prior to David showing up around 900 BC .. is a Canaanite town .. going back to ~ 2000 BC according to both the Bible and the Archaeological record .. and it is these Canaanites who have rights to the land ..

 

[Godobeyer]

Much is being said in the media and RF about how Palestinians are innocent, subjected to apartheid, completely subdued by Hamas, and so on.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that's all true.

For sake of discussion it's first time you said the damn truth .
, why not fix the main reason of all this , which is stop apartheid,and end sieze Gaza instead ?
Ah i forget you called Hamas a terrorist because they just defend for their people and land.
but never called Israel terrorist when killed 16 000 civilians until now , cut water and electricity and food .
Also do you have any idea about how the Palestinians live in West Bank ?

 

[icehorse]

For sake of discussion it's first time you said the damn truth .
, why not fix the main reason of all this , which is stop apartheid,and end sieze Gaza instead ?
Ah i forget you called Hamas a terrorist because they just defend for their people and land.
but never called Israel terrorist when killed 16 000 civilians until now , cut water and electricity and food .
Also do you have any idea about how the Palestinians live in West Bank ?

I do not agree with you that you understand the reasons. In the last 70 years Arab leaders have rejected offer after offer to create a two state solution. Some of these offers were much better than defining "Palestine" as only Gaza and the WB. Israel has agreed with many offers and Arabs have rejected them all.

 

[Orbit]

I do not agree with you that you understand the reasons. In the last 70 years Arab leaders have rejected offer after offer to create a two state solution. Some of these offers were much better than defining "Palestine" as only Gaza and the WB. Israel has agreed with many offers and Arabs have rejected them all.

Have you looked into WHY they were rejected? Has it occurred to you that they were bad deals? The partition plan was rejected by the Arab community, in part due to concerns about how much land and access to resources it would get. The Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected it on the basis that Arabs formed a two-thirds majority and owned a majority of the lands, so why should they accept a deal that severely diminished the land and resources they would get in proportion to their presence in the population?

Here is a more complete history:

Why there can never be a two-state solution

As Palestinians mark 50 years since the UN ordered Israeli forces to withdraw, experts say lasting peace is impossible.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[metis]

Some conveniently forget that the Palestinian country is "Jordan" after "Palestine" was divided, and Jordan was and is the largest entity.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Have you looked into WHY they were rejected? Has it occurred to you that they were bad deals? The partition plan was rejected by the Arab community, in part due to concerns about how much land and access to resources it would get.

A couple of quick questions:

1. Do you consider it a bad deal and, if so, why?
2. Have you ever visited Israel and, if so, did the visit extend to the Negev?

 

[icehorse]

Here is a more complete history:

And here is maybe an even more complete history. And I don't think even this history captures all the events...

Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Godobeyer]

I do not agree with you that you understand the reasons. In the last 70 years Arab leaders have rejected offer after offer to create a two state solution. Some of these offers were much better than defining "Palestine" as only Gaza and the WB. Israel has agreed with many offers and Arabs have rejected them all.

I know you in disagreement with me, But your reasons not fair , now it's clear lie I catch from you .
You claim that Arabs leaders reject two state solution is lie .
It's like Israel are doing well in this subject ?
they re-occupied West Bank ,and now try occupy now Gaza after 16 years of siege.

 

[Orbit]

A couple of quick questions:

1. Do you consider it a bad deal and, if so, why?
2. Have you ever visited Israel and, if so, did the visit extend to the Negev?

I'm just a bystander who is tired of their tax dollars being used to slaughter children. I've researched about the history of the region to the best of my ability trying to make sense of all of this, and what I have found is that the Palestinians have a point. They have a valid grievance. To say so seems to be forbidden.

You don't need to go to Israel to do any of that.

 

[metis]

I'm just a bystander who is tired of their tax dollars being used to slaughter children.

But just Palestinian children, right? And who started the killing?

 

[Orbit]

But just Palestinian children, right? And who started the killing?

Again, this didn't start on Oct 7th. And on Oct 7th, I condemned that Hamas attack, and all terrorist attacks.

But it is now Dec 4th, and Israel has been slaughtering Palestinian children (and UN workers, and Red Cross workers, and doctors, and ambulance drivers, and babies, and journalists, and entire families) every single day since. Do you see a problem there?

 

[icehorse]

I'm just a bystander who is tired of their tax dollars being used to slaughter children. I've researched about the history of the region to the best of my ability trying to make sense of all of this, and what I have found is that the Palestinians have a point. They have a valid grievance. To say so seems to be forbidden.

You don't need to go to Israel to do any of that.

It's all complex as hell. One perspective that we have to keep in mind is that this is bigger than just people who live in Gaza and/or the WB. They are pawns in a bigger game that the regional Arabs are playing. In other words, it's not logical to isolate the analysis to just Gaza and the WB.

 

[metis]

Again, this didn't start on Oct 7th. And on Oct 7th, I condemned that Hamas attack, and all terrorist attacks.

But it is now Dec 4th, and Israel has been slaughtering Palestinian children (and UN workers, and Red Cross workers, and doctors, and ambulance drivers, and babies, and journalists, and entire families) every single day since. Do you see a problem there?

Are you a pacifist? Should any country just allow itself to get attacked and not fight back? In a modern war, which are mostly killed: soldiers or civilians? Should the U.S. not have responded after Pearl Harbor? How about after 9-11?

 

[Orbit]

Are you a pacifist? Should any country just allow itself to get attacked and not fight back? In a modern war, which are mostly killed: soldiers or civilians? Should the U.S. not have responded after Pearl Harbor? How about after 9-11?

Do you have a sense of proportion?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So, we have ...

Have you looked into WHY they were rejected? Has it occurred to you that they were bad deals? The partition plan was rejected by the Arab community, in part due to concerns about how much land and access to resources it would get.

A couple of quick questions:

1. Do you consider it a bad deal and, if so, why?
2. Have you ever visited Israel and, if so, did the visit extend to the Negev?

To which you reply ...

I'm just a bystander who is tired of their tax dollars being used to slaughter children. I've researched about the history of the region to the best of my ability trying to make sense of all of this, and what I have found is that the Palestinians have a point. They have a valid grievance.

Thank you for that.

Still, I would very much like to know the specifics of this researched valid grievance you claim.

As for ...

To say so seems to be forbidden.

You don't need to go to Israel to do any of that.

I do not believe that "to say so [is, or should be] forbidden. Truth be known, it is very possible that I've spent a good deal more time, effort, and money opposing the occupation and in support of Palestinian civil rights than anyone I know at RF.

And, no, one does not need to visit Israel to have an informed opinion although it is, in fact, useful.

So, again, what was their point and why do you deem it valid?

 

[Orbit]

So, we have ...



To which you reply ...



Thank you for that.

Still, I would very much like to know the specifics of this researched valid grievance you claim.

As for ...



I do not believe that "to say so [is, or should be] forbidden. Truth be known, it is very possible that I've spent a good deal more time, effort, and money opposing the occupation and in support of Palestinian civil rights than anyone I know at RF.

And, no, one does not need to visit Israel to have an informed opinion although it is, in fact, useful.

So, again, what was their point and why do you deem it valid?

To put it simply, they were dispossessed of their land in the past. That's the root of the issue, but we can't put toothpaste back in the tube. Colonialism is ugly, and it has consequences.

Currently, Palestinians continue to be dispossessed of their land in the West Bank by Israeli settlers. Their houses are bulldozed or taken over, and they are shot or forced to leave. The U.S. supplies the weapons, indirectly. The illegal expansion of Israeli settlements outside the 1967 borders is a problem. There is no freedom of movement. Palestinians cannot travel without a pass, and Palestinian neighborhoods are separated from each other by military checkpoints.

For Gaza specifically, their economy has been intentionally crippled by the Israeli blockade. Israel destroys infrastructure, and doesn't allow sufficient construction materials in for rebuilding. Israel won't allow the building of infrastructure, for example drilling wells, installing pumps, or water infrastructure (see 2017 report below). There is a more or less permanent shortage of clean water where there needn't be. Israel controls every aspect of life in Gaza.

In Israel, there is arbitrary detention for Palestinian children, lack of civil rights, trial before military courts for children, and a culture of mutual hatred with all that brings. Palestinians are tortured, imprisoned, and killed by Hamas, the IDF, and other terrorist groups.

The results of decades of this is radicalization on both sides. There is a seemingly endless cycle of hate that results in terror attacks and retaliatory attacks.

The Occupation of Water

The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to clean and safe water.

www.amnesty.org

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/19/west-bank-israel-settler-violence-travel-ban

Here is a translation of a Hebrew tweet that appears alongside a picture of U.S. M-16s being handed out to settlers:
"Minister of National Security Itamar Ben Gvir distributing dozens of weapons to ultra-Orthodox volunteers in the emergency room in the city of Elad.".

I'm also not happy about funding gun transfers to settlers who are going to use the guns to remove Palestinians from their land in the West Bank, but that's a separate subject.