Hamas to recruit Gazan youths in Khan Yunis comeback

[Shadow Wolf]

True.... ( you're exaggerating intentionally, right? ) "Making people feel as if they are being bombed out of existence doesn't work" is more accurate, right?

No, I mean having no real tangible strategy or end game beyond bombing the hell out of the other guy. This is primitive and barbaric. We torture them so they cannot torture us. That absolutely never works and it does not extinguish rebellion.

Well.... it's a start. Civil liberties are the first casualty of any war fought on native soil. The Palestinian resistance started the war over 100 years ago. It has been ongoing ever since. Their tactics are understandable, I'm not blaming them for being Machiavellian. I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing ( to a degree ) if I was educated to hate, and blame, and martyr myself, and my children, for a great heavenly reward.

But they've been attacking consistently for a long time. That has consequences.

That sounds like how we, as Americans, were taught to speak of Arabs and Muslims after 9/11. Absolutely nothing good came out of that. Yes, there is legit hatred. I'm not unaware or naive. But we've this before and we're seeing it again (I predict Xi did a Reagan calling the Taliban a group of swell guys).
Peace requires peace. History has examples of that as well. It's very hard, it's very scary, and it's very fragile. But it's not doomed to fail. There is a chance. It can work. But it has to be given a chance.

 

[dybmh]

No, I mean having no real tangible strategy or end game

Up till now, the end game was negotiate. Trade land for peace.

The Palestinians attack, Israel defends. Seizes land to create a defensible position, then uses that land as currency for negotiations.

Oslo 2, was the most recent agreement with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. The Palestinians were getting their independent state. Israelis communities were being dispossessed. But, just like all the times in the past working with the Palestinians, unlike Egypt, they broke their promises.

The new end game has been disclosed by Netanyahu, but no one listens.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The new end game has been disclosed by Netanyahu, but no one listens.

Yes. We are. That's how we're able to say it has been tried and failed.

Up till now, the end game was negotiate. Trade land for peace.

But that hasn't been the case. It's more and more and more land. And much of the world does regard it as Israel illegaly occupying land against international law. And they still encroach into Palestinian lands. We have centuries of history to know what happened as England kept taking more and more. We know it was hardly different for Rome and they took such an extreme to them it was another fatal crack in the collapse of the Roman Empire. The British Empire as well crumbled in the flames of revolution. America suffered irreparable damage. The USSR too would find themselves unable to do it.
Honestly this is what makes me think Netanyahu plans on taking all of Gaza. He wants the Palestinians gone from there, the IDF has razed over half of Gaza and people are being driven out in mass. It's not a war against Hamas, it's the siege of Gaza. It's just harder to overrun amd sack a city today like when the Gauls and Visigoths themselves sacked Rome.

 

[sun rise]

Well.... it's a start. Civil liberties are the first casualty of any war fought on native soil. The Palestinian resistance started the war over 100 years ago. It has been ongoing ever since.

I know you picked that date for a good reason and it's a good date. For those that did not get it, the Balfour declaration for a Jewish homeland was issued in 1917 and an initial trickle of Jews started emigrating to "Palestine" soon thereafter.

then uses that land as currency for negotiations.

The settlers don't. They want to ethnically cleanse "Judea and Samaria" and from what I've read Gaza as well. And I see no evidence Netanyahu would trade land for peace under any circumstance.

 

[dybmh]

But that hasn't been the case.

I disagree. It has. Gaza was returned in 2005. Oslo 2 was returning the majority of the West Bank.

It's not Israel's fault the Palestinians cannot honor their agreements.

Here's a map of the land in the West Bank that was supposed to become the Palestinian State. But the Palestinians broke their agreement and kept attacking.

 

[dybmh]

the IDF has razed over half of Gaza

Because..... the Palestinian resistance has setup make-shift armories all throughout the most populated residential areas, hospitals, mosques, etc...

The fastest way to render those weapons inoperable is to bury them in rubble. The people have been warned. The majority left. The buildings are destroyed because they are weapons depots. The Palestinian resistance is doing their best. I don't blame them. But they have weapons stashed here there and everywhere. All those buildings are justifiable necessary military targets.

This is war SW.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is war SW.

That's what those drank Uncle Sam's Kool-aid after 911 said. That's what so mamy have said before attempting exactly what Israel is doing only to fail.

Because..... the Palestinian resistance has setup make-shift armories all throughout the most populated residential areas, hospitals, mosques, etc...

Like that Arabic calendar with "the names of Hamas leaders"?
History has shown the best way to render them inoperable is for Israel to work with the Palestinians so they don't want to pick them up in the first place. History assures us this bombing guarantees their use will continue.

 

[dybmh]

The settlers don't. They want to ethnically cleanse "Judea and Samaria" and from what I've read Gaza as well. And I see no evidence Netanyahu would trade land for peace under any circumstance.

They're a minority. And the whole country is frustrated with the BS coming from Palestine. This too shall pass, but, it's going to take a long time. Potentially several generations, IF, the education of the young Palestinians is no longer being exploited.

There's a lot of great progress happening in the ME. It just needs time and space. Demilitarize Gaza and the West Bank. Hold that ground. Shut down the tunnels. Dismantle the UN run schools. They're fired. Keep the UN out of it. Then, goods, services, and opportunity can return to the Palestinians. Once they get a taste for a world without the Islamic Mafia, they'll come to the same conclusion as the UAE. "Hey, these Jews are actually the good guys."

 

[dybmh]

That's what those drank Uncle Sam's Kool-aid after 911 said

It might have been wrong then, but that doesn't make it wrong now.

That's what so mamy have said before attempting exactly what Israel is doing only to fail.

So what? It's a totally different conflict.

Like that Arabic calendar with "the names of Hamas leaders"?

No like rockets, rifles, and weapons factories. The people can't take the weapons with them when they flee. They leave them, then try to come back and fight. If you've been following the news ( actual news ) you will recognize this is exactly what happens. The appropriate response is: once the weapons are found, call in an air strike. Move on. The area needs to be cleared, rapidly. It's the right thing to do.

 

[dybmh]

History assures us this bombing guarantees their use will continue.

I have yet to see anything posted which is anti-israel or pro-Palestinian that would qualify as "history".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have yet to see anything posted which is anti-israel or pro-Palestinian that would qualify as "history".

Afghanistan doesn't count as history? We both lived through the USSR's and USA's failed efforts there. For lots of us that's living history, and still fairly recent.

 

[sun rise]

I disagree. It has. Gaza was returned in 2005. Oslo 2 was returning the majority of the West Bank.

It's not Israel's fault the Palestinians cannot honor their agreements.

Here's a map of the land in the West Bank that was supposed to become the Palestinian State. But the Palestinians broke their agreement and kept attacking.

View attachment 93394

This is not the view of all Jews Why the Oslo Accords Failed | My Jewish Learning - that web page presents the perspectives of both sides. I would only add to that the assassination of Yitzakh Rabin was designed to destroy Oslo and I think it can be argued that the fanatic who murdered him succeeded and Arafat's death was another factor.

 

[dybmh]

Afghanistan doesn't count as history?

That's not even apples and oranges... That's apples and a 16-wheeler.

 

[dybmh]

the view of all Jews

There's no such thing and you know it.

 

[dybmh]

Why the Oslo Accords Failed | My Jewish Learning

Is this about Oslo 2? I thought that the realization, confirmation, the PA was not working in good faith, again, came after Oct. 7th.

 

[sun rise]

There's no such thing and you know it.

You got me. I should have thought of "Two Jews three opinions" before I posted.

 

[sun rise]

Is this about Oslo 2? I thought that the realization, confirmation, the PA was not working in good faith, again, came after Oct. 7th.

Skimming through it again, I think Oslo 1.

If we learn anything from the failure that if there is an agreement some day, it absolutely most address the issue of not only finding violations but that, in the words of the page: "corrections could be guaranteed". Wishful thinking has been, is and will be a guarenteed failure.

In light of these facts, it might be said in hindsight that Oslo ultimately failed because while its fashioners set in motion a process that could potentially lead to trust and confidence, they did not establish mechanisms for monitoring violations or ensuring that claims of violations could be arbitrated and corrections could be guaranteed. Without such safeguards, the dynamic of the Oslo process fell prey to longstanding sentiments of mistrust and anger between Palestinians and Israelis.

 

[metis]

History has shown the best way to render them inoperable is for Israel to work with the Palestinians so they don't want to pick them up in the first place.

Hamas is supported and financed by Iran, and they consider this a holy war based on what's in the Hadith. There was no justification for what Hamas did on 10-7-- period.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hamas is supported and financed by Iran, and they consider this a holy war based on what's in the Hadith. There was no justification for what Hamas did on 10-7-- period.

That has what to do with my post? I have made it clear for months now I believe Israel must work with the Palestinians in a peaceful way to overthrow Hamas and bring peace.

 

[dybmh]

Palestinians in a peaceful way to overthrow Hamas and bring peace.

That's been tried and has failed for over 100 years. Yes the critics are correct to a degree that Israel's efforts to secure itself feed into the conflict. But the critics cannot come up with alternatives that do not include permitting the rape, murder, kidnapping, and worse of innocent Israelis.

InB4: Yes, over 100 years. Hamas is the Palestinian resistance movement. Palestinians have been waging the same war, with the same propaganda, and increasing violence for over 100 years. Hamas is just the latest in a long line of groups doing the same things.