Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[Father Heathen]

Once, when Condoleeza Rice visited Saudi Arabia, she spoke to a group of female students. One of them said they enjoy the "protection" Saudi laws offer, and that women in Saudi Arabia don't want or need to drive cars. The other students cheered, and Ms. Rice was taken aback.

That's indoctrination for you. Complacency as second class citizens.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How is being segregated and placed in a position that suggests females are lesser anything other than misogyny?

Because they've been indoctrinated to think it isn't.

Duh.

 

[Rakhel]

This reminds me of a few other situations ....

Once, when Condoleeza Rice visited Saudi Arabia, she spoke to a group of female students. One of them said they enjoy the "protection" Saudi laws offer, and that women in Saudi Arabia don't want or need to drive cars. The other students cheered, and Ms. Rice was taken aback.

Would it be Western hubris to suppose, perhaps, that these Saudi students are mistaken about their own status? I'm not talking about forcing them to conform to my views; I'm just saying, would it be arrogant for me to *have* this view? After all, their judgment is influenced by the fact that they have no choice in the matter. And when people are given the legal/cultural/religious freedom to choose, women don't voluntarily banish themselves from cars, or segregate themselves to the back pews. Only under the threat of group exclusion do they convince themselves that this is a form of "equality", or that driving a car isn't really very important.

There were also blacks who gladly participated in the LDS church for many years, and during that time they were excluded from the priesthood and segregated in a number of rituals. Would it be arrogant of me to conclude that the LDS church's practices before the 1970's were racist? If some committed black Mormons claim the practices were not racist, they were equitable and fair practices which blacks voluntarily accepted, do I have to accept that they are right?

Because we obviosly know what's best for them and have to save them cuz theys too stupid to know better.

 

[Draka]

How is being segregated and placed in a position that suggests females are lesser anything other than misogyny?

They're not. They're in a position because men are supposedly weak and easily distracted by women, not because the women are "lesser".

 

[Father Heathen]

Because we obviosly know what's best for them and have to save them cuz theys too stupid to know better.

Should they not at least have a choice?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How is being segregated and placed in a position that suggests females are lesser anything other than misogyny?

Have you ever asked them or there sisters if they felt 'lesser' or hated? Of course not. After all, why should this condescending white man's burden mentality burden itself with the opinions of those it purports to defend?

Care to pose the question?

Muslim Women's Alliance
Phone: 312-298-9MWA (312-298-9692) ​

Let us know what they say.

 

[Willamena]

- Regardless of whether the outcomes for boys and girls are equal in value, you can't segregate on the basis of gender without discriminating on the basis of gender. The school's policies address not only equitable treatment, but also discrimination itself.

Toilet arrangements are discriminated on the basis of gender. Would you consider them to violate policy?

 

[Songbird]

This reminds me of a few other situations ....

Once, when Condoleeza Rice visited Saudi Arabia, she spoke to a group of female students. One of them said they enjoy the "protection" Saudi laws offer, and that women in Saudi Arabia don't want or need to drive cars. The other students cheered, and Ms. Rice was taken aback.

Would it be Western hubris to suppose, perhaps, that these Saudi students are mistaken about their own status? I'm not talking about forcing them to conform to my views; I'm just saying, would it be arrogant for me to *have* this view? After all, their judgment is influenced by the fact that they have no choice in the matter. And when people are given the legal/cultural/religious freedom to choose, women don't voluntarily banish themselves from cars, or segregate themselves to the back pews. Only under the threat of group exclusion do they convince themselves that this is a form of "equality", or that driving a car isn't really very important.

There were also blacks who gladly participated in the LDS church for many years, and during that time they were excluded from the priesthood and segregated in a number of rituals. Would it be arrogant of me to conclude that the LDS church's practices before the 1970's were racist? If some committed black Mormons claim the practices were not racist, they were equitable and fair practices which blacks voluntarily accepted, do I have to accept that they are right?

Sounds like theological Stockholm syndrome. It reminds me of a discussion with some Christian pastors' wives I had a few years ago about gender. Some of them were talking about a wife's only call in life being to tend to her husband and family. Then I thought about discussions I've heard throughout my life about gender and the church, and I think the most anti-woman people I've run across in church have usually been women.

I don't know if it's to fit into the social group, or a sort of climbing to the top of the subjugated heap, in order to be praised for being a "Godly" woman.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Because we obviosly know what's best for them and have to save them cuz theys too stupid to know better.

Interesting. So you believe anyone who says they aren't being mistreated, is therefore not being mistreated? Medieval peasants loyal to their feudal lord? Black house slaves in 1800's America? A battered wife who insists "He's a good man, a good man ...."?

I'm not saying we should incautiously pass judgment or stick our noses in the business of others. I'm just saying, isn't is *sometimes* the case that people are relegated to an inferior status, but they are not socially conscious of it?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not saying we should incautiously pass judgment or stick our noses in the business of others. I'm just saying, isn't is *sometimes* the case that people are relegated to an inferior status, but they are not socially conscious of it?

Yes. Therefore?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Sounds like theological Stockholm syndrome. It reminds me of a discussion with some Christian pastors' wives I had a few years ago about gender. Some of them were talking about a wife's only call in life being to tend to her husband and family. Then I thought about discussions I've heard throughout my life about gender and the church, and I think the most anti-woman people I've run across in church have usually been women.

I don't know if it's to fit into the social group, or a sort of climbing to the top of the subjugated heap, in order to be praised for being a "Godly" woman.

Exactly. This is what I'm talking about.

I hurry to emphasize, again, that we should definitely not rush to a judgment of this kind, as it can easily be a product of our own cultural narrow-mindedness and arrogance.

 

[Rakhel]

Interesting. So you believe anyone who says they aren't being mistreated, is therefore not being mistreated? Medieval peasants loyal to their feudal lord? Black house slaves in 1800's America? A battered wife who insists "He's a good man, a good man ...."?

I'm not saying we should incautiously pass judgment or stick our noses in the business of others. I'm just saying, isn't is *sometimes* the case that people are relegated to an inferior status, but they are not socially conscious of it?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I am saying that sometimes we stick our noses in where it doesn't belong. We, Americans, have this need to make(force) the rest of the world to conform to what we believe is right and just for everyone without considering that what that particular culture is doing may be right and just for them.

I see us as essentially becoming what we fought so hard not to be

 

[Antibush5]

I've said it before in this thread, but I think the best way to deal with the problem would've been to move the lunch hour to something in the normal range (which I know is as late at 1:00-2:00 at some schools around here) that accommodates Friday prayer time.

The students would be free to use this time to go off school grounds to the local burger joint or mosque as they see fit, and they'd all have to be back by the bell at the end of lunch.

You do realise you're giving them special treatment? Shifting the entire schools scheduel for them, even if you say "Oh well, dem kiddies can all go an have dey fun, so its all equal" that doesn't change the fact that their presence has changed the school as a whole.

 

[Songbird]

Exactly. This is what I'm talking about.

I hurry to emphasize, again, that we should definitely not rush to a judgment of this kind, as it can easily be a product of our own cultural narrow-mindedness and arrogance.

Yeah, I'm hesitant to draw a conclusion, but in this particular thread I'm lightly taking one side. Reminds me, many debates are more about exercises in arguing than passion about an issue. People firmly dig in to their side.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You do realise you're giving them special treatment? Shifting the entire schools scheduel for them, even if you say "Oh well, dem kiddies can all go an have dey fun, so its all equal" that doesn't change the fact that their presence has changed the school as a whole.

Let me suggest something: learn the facts, then talk ...

... just a suggestion.​

 

[Sunstone]

That's indoctrination for you. Complacency as second class citizens.

Who knows? At my first wedding, two of our guests were a mother and daughter from Saudi Arabia. They thought they had the best of both worlds. That is, they were from very rich families. Not only did they have a home in Saudi Arabia, but they also had homes in France, America, and Brazil. When they got tired of the KSA, they could spend time in New York. So they were very pro-Saudi customs.

I'm not suggesting everyone of the girls who cheered at Rice's reception was as well off as those wedding guests, but I wonder how many were from the Saudi underclass -- the group of girls without chauffeurs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is getting more than a little pathetic. Let me ask a question:

How many participants in this thread have actually and in person talked about such issues with Muslim women?​

 

[Father Heathen]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I am saying that sometimes we stick our noses in where it doesn't belong. We, Americans, have this need to make(force) the rest of the world to conform to what we believe is right and just for everyone without considering that what that particular culture is doing may be right and just for them.

I see us as essentially becoming what we fought so hard not to be

I think everyone in this world should have rights, freedom, equality and justice. To suggest that people should be denied such things simply to preserve imbecilic norms and traditions is rather disgusting.

 

[Songbird]

It'd be great to have a refreshment break now.

Please help yourself to the assortment of halal and kosher appetizers! For the Americans we have a corn syrup, nitrate, and trans fat trifecta - cheeseburgers - over in the corner.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This is getting more than a little pathetic. Let me ask a question:

How many participant in this thread have actually and in person talked about such issues with Muslim women?
​

How many Muslim women would one have to talk to to insure you had a full understanding of all aspects of the situation?