Help on Karma question

[Charzhino]

I have been dialouging with an athiest on another forum about the concept of karma and rebirth. She posed a theoretical situation that if an evil agency, alters your mind to change you into a killer temporarily, and then changes you back to your normal self, should you be punished as it is akin to being punished/suffering for not rememebring what you did in your past life?

I said that if someone alters your mind delibratley it is not your fault. I said that everything that happens to you in this life is because of what you did in your past life. She answered that, ''And if you follow the rule, then the evil agency temporarily turning you into a murderer was also a result of what you did in a past life; thus contradicting your assertion that "someone altering your mind" matters.''

I don't really know how to answer this, any help?

 

[Onkara]

Hi Charzhino
I think the point of what Karma is needs to be remade. What is the point of Karma, rather than how it works. Is not the point of Karma that we cannot help the way we act because it is Karma or is it that we need to act consciously and in a good way to overcome bad karma. It sounds more like your friend understands karma as predestination, which you explain it is, but for her she understands that there is no choice whereas there is choice despite karma and it is the right choice which overcomes negative karma. We should not act from our desires, thus our actions will not carry karma. In predestination you need to accecpt everything, with Karma you can understand that your situation is due to your actions, but it does not mean you cannot change your future.

Is not karma the result of our actions, but still we have a certain amount of control over our present action. I may have killed and now I am in prison, so I am living my life due to my karma however despite being in prison I can act to help others and remember God to ensure that I have better karma.

I also think one needs to consider the play of the Gunas (maya), should that be a part of the philosophy/religion you are discussing.

For example it is gunas which operate on the invidual and causes him to act. It is tamas, rajas more than Sattva than causes negative or pasion driven action, not the person herself. The person is identified with Maya and takes Maya to be real, and thus acts out of greed, passion, despression etc. Those who see through maya become liberated and no longer suffer from maya (gunas).

Lastly you highlight the word "you", so who is the "You" in the arugment. Is it the mind, spirit, body or are we a part of Vahreguru or Brahman but don't realise it as we think we are the one who acts?

I hope this adds some thoughts to the arguement, at the end of the day I don't think it is your karma which will determine your reply, although it could be predestination.

 

[YmirGF]

Many would likely agree that falling down is not a good thing, however it is by falling down that we learn to take our first baby steps when learning to walk. In those terms, the falling down is not a bad thing as falling down teaches us what we need to know to stay on our feet. The point is that even things that are deemed to be "bad" may actually have a very "good" effect if one manages to learn from the experience. In this regard, karma is not the result of "good" and "bad" acts, but rather, is the knowledge gained from the action of direct experience and is quite neutral and impersonal - in that sense.

To expand on this, it isn't so much what you did in life, but rather, what you learned from what you did that has a bearing on any "future" incarnations.

 

[Satsangi]

Hi Charzhino,

I can give u the Hinduism perpective of Karma. The Karmas do give u fruits (good or bad), but the giver of the fruits of Karma is the God and the God can decide what and when he wants to give u or forgive u (if u deserve it).

There are three types of Karmas:-

(1) Sanchita Karma- means which u have done in the past life and the fruits are there for u now or in future..
(2) Kriyamaan Karma- the Karmas which u are doing now and the fruits of which have not been formed yet.
(3) Prarabdha Karma- this is the set of the fruits of the Karmas given to u by the God when u take birth and this is the Karma which cannot be changed for all practical purposes (very very rarely God or God realized Saint have changed it).

You do not have any control over the Prarabdha Karma for all practical purposes, but the Sanchita Karma can be forgiven by surrendering to God.

The Karma that u control is the Kriyamaan Karma- u may get the fruits of it now or few lives later- that depends on the God.

Friend YmirGF also sheds an interesting aspect on the Karma theory.

Karma is one of the hardest to follow as per the Bhagvad Gita.

I hope this helps u in preparing a background to answer back and "win the debate".

Regards,

 

[Madhuri]

I have been dialouging with an athiest on another forum about the concept of karma and rebirth. She posed a theoretical situation that if an evil agency, alters your mind to change you into a killer temporarily, and then changes you back to your normal self, should you be punished as it is akin to being punished/suffering for not rememebring what you did in your past life?

I said that if someone alters your mind delibratley it is not your fault. I said that everything that happens to you in this life is because of what you did in your past life. She answered that, ''And if you follow the rule, then the evil agency temporarily turning you into a murderer was also a result of what you did in a past life; thus contradicting your assertion that "someone altering your mind" matters.''

I don't really know how to answer this, any help?

There are different levels of karma. Karma is a natural law, where actions lead to certain reactions. Every action we make has a reaction.
My understanding is that karma is influenced by intention. If you have no control over your actions or if you don't know any better, your reaction will be less than that of someone who does the same thing with full knowledge and intent.
The person you talked to is correct. Whatever happens to you now is the result of past actions (this life or past).

Free will is an interesting concept. I think theoretically it is hard to see how any of us have free will. But I think that we do, to some degree. We have choices, but the choices we make are heavily influenced by the people we have become through lifetime after lifetime of karmic reaction.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Hi Charzhino,

I can give u the Hinduism perpective of Karma. The Karmas do give u fruits (good or bad), but the giver of the fruits of Karma is the God and the God can decide what and when he wants to give u or forgive u (if u deserve it).

There are three types of Karmas:-

(1) Sanchita Karma- means which u have done in the past life and the fruits are there for u now or in future..
(2) Kriyamaan Karma- the Karmas which u are doing now and the fruits of which have not been formed yet.
(3) Prarabdha Karma- this is the set of the fruits of the Karmas given to u by the God when u take birth and this is the Karma which cannot be changed for all practical purposes (very very rarely God or God realized Saint have changed it).

You do not have any control over the Prarabdha Karma for all practical purposes, but the Sanchita Karma can be forgiven by surrendering to God.

The Karma that u control is the Kriyamaan Karma- u may get the fruits of it now or few lives later- that depends on the God.

Friend YmirGF also sheds an interesting aspect on the Karma theory.

Karma is one of the hardest to follow as per the Bhagvad Gita.

I hope this helps u in preparing a background to answer back and "win the debate".

Regards,

This is a very good summation of the Hindu view of Karma. The idea of karma that I have found very practical to apply to my life. What I think and do is what I become.

 

[zenzero]

Friend WY,

What I think and do is what I become.

Absolutely right.
NOW, the other side.
*If there are no thoughts, one simply, IS!*.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend WY,


Absolutely right.
NOW, the other side.
*If there are no thoughts, one simply, IS!*.

Love & rgds

Friend Zenzero,

Is the journey of reaching the state of no thoughts dependent on the past or present Karmas?

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,

Is the journey of reaching the state of no thoughts dependent on the past or present Karmas?

It is HERE-NOW; if the state is brought about HERE-NOW where time is eternal then one is out of that mind created time zone.

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Satsangi,



It is HERE-NOW; if the state is brought about HERE-NOW where time is eternal then one is out of that mind created time zone.

Love & rgds

There is an "if" in the above statement; I agree if the state is brought about HERE-NOW, then there no question on the Karma arising. Is that "if" or mind created time zone under Karmic influence?

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,
The *if* is the *CATCH*.
All religions point towards THAT.
Does not mean that Karma etc. are negated or all that scriptures states.
No, they too remain BUT transcending them is also TRUE and that transcendence can happen HERE-NOW after which the individual does not remain so when the *ego* is no more how can *KARMA* have any effect?

Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend Satsangi,
The *if* is the *CATCH*.
All religions point towards THAT.
Does not mean that Karma etc. are negated or all that scriptures states.
No, they too remain BUT transcending them is also TRUE and that transcendence can happen HERE-NOW after which the individual does not remain so when the *ego* is no more how can *KARMA* have any effect?

Love & rgds

Friend Zenzero,

Agree 100%, thank you for a very effective explanation. "Sanchita" and "Kriyamaan" karmas have no effect when the "ego" is no more. But, the "Prarabdha Karma"- does that remain after "ego" is no more?...... Many Maharshis have said that you have to undergo "Prarabdha" karma and take ur life as it comes even after enlightenment.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend Satsangi,
True, cessation of the *ego* or enlightenment or satori is just the point of *birth* there after actual life or the journey starts.
The point that can state is only that the journey ends only when the mind itself drops as it has no-thoughts to think about. That is nirvana.
Till then some karma of some sorts will remain.
Love & rgds

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Friend WY,


Absolutely right.
NOW, the other side.
*If there are no thoughts, one simply, IS!*.

Love & rgds

True...

 

[godrealized]

Karma is that inherent ingredient of cosmic system which facilitates movement from one manifestation to another... from one body to next! Life in cosmic system belongs to our soul atman... the spirit within! Every soul atman manifests human body to work out it's karma ... remove dross impurities within! From first manifestation to last... 8.4 millionth manifestation... effort of every soul atman remains regaining its lost original pure prime pristine primordial form at the earliest!

The moment complete dross impurities within soul atman removed... human beings reached stage of enlightenment (kaivalya jnana) and finally salvation (moksha)! Manifestation after manifestation... body of body human beings are expected to negate presence of karma in the body! Our soul atman ... the spirit within is absolute master and controller of human form. It is not within the capability of human body to manifest a soul atman!

 

[Satsangi]

The Atman is like a King of the body; in some it is a "eunuch king" imprisomed by the Indriyas and in some it is like the Emperor ruling the Indriyas.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend godrealized,

Welcome to RF!
Best Wishes.

Love & rgds

 

[joea]

Friend WY,


Absolutely right.
NOW, the other side.
*If there are no thoughts, one simply, IS!*.

Love & rgds

Hi ZenZero,
Does that mean then..no thoughts..no new Karma ( Kriyamaan Karma ) is being created..it seems to be the best way to get out of Karma.

 

[YmirGF]

Hi ZenZero,
Does that mean then..no thoughts..no new Karma ( Kriyamaan Karma ) is being created..it seems to be the best way to get out of Karma.

The best way out of karma is to stop believing in the drivel being extolled as wisdom on the subject. You are as affected by karmic forces as you believe you are.

 

[joea]

The best way out of karma is to stop believing in the drivel being extolled as wisdom on the subject. You are as affected by karmic forces as you believe you are.

Okay...so how do you create good Karma...and avoid creating bad Karma ?