Help on Karma question

[joea]

How do we stop accumulating Karma in Buddhism's Karma concept?

You cannot stop the process of Karma. Sleeping,walking,breathing,eating and so forth, are all forms of Karma, it is called Neutral or Ineffective Karma. It has no moral consequence, done involuntarily or unintentional....unintentional action is INEFFECTIVE KARMA. What i mean by this, if you accidentally step on an insect, being unconscious of it's existence, this constitutes ineffective Karma because there was no intention, the intentional element is not there. To stop the accumulation of karma, you are barely existing..

 

[zenzero]

Friend satsangi,

Experience is a function of the senses which may not always be true.

You are right, the word used should be UNDERSTANDING rather than EXPERIENCES.
The mind does not needs any threatening as only awareness dispels all darkness.
Best Wishes!
Love & rgds

 

[dharma_seeker]

Friend dharma seeker,



Am neither a buddhist nor a follower of any organised/unorganised religion ; however follow whatever is already known to others.
Personally any activity done with a thinking MIND accumulates *karma*.
Activity with a STILL mind stops the same.
Love & rgds

Friend ZenZero,

You might be able to still the mind and stop accumulating Karma but you cannot still the mind forever. You engage in daily activities, do many good/bad things, How to stop the Sanchit Karma i.e. Accumulation of Karma? Enlightenment will not be achieved untill the Karma account has become null.

 

[dharma_seeker]

Karma is an inanimate entity. It cannot attach itself to the result/fruit. Thus a "just" accountant is needed to do so.

 

[dharma_seeker]

You cannot stop the process of Karma. Sleeping,walking,breathing,eating and so forth, are all forms of Karma, it is called Neutral or Ineffective Karma. It has no moral consequence, done involuntarily or unintentional....unintentional action is INEFFECTIVE KARMA. What i mean by this, if you accidentally step on an insect, being unconscious of it's existence, this constitutes ineffective Karma because there was no intention, the intentional element is not there. To stop the accumulation of karma, you are barely existing..

I meant to say how can you stop Karma's effect? I know you have to do Karma to exist.

Your thoughts, your actions, and your words all leads to KARMA. I disagree with your one point that if I unintentionally kill an insect/a being then that would be ineffective KARMA. It is like saying if I unintentionally kill a human, the law of the country will forgive me because i didn't intend to do so. Done intentionally/unintentionally it will accumulate Karma and will be effective. But the effect of the done intentionally will be much greater than the one done unintentionally. Another example, out of my ignorance and ego, I insulted someone who was supposed to be respected. I did this unintentionally in a way since the illusion of ego and ignorance was there. To clear this ego and ignorance, the Karma effect will take place to make me understand the mistakes and clear by ego/ignorance.

My question remains, How to Stop the effect of Karma if there is no GOD?? You can still your mind but that will only stop it for that period of time. What about the rest of time when your mind is not still??

 

[Flow]

...but you cannot still the mind forever.

Yeah you can.

According to Zen, Taoism, Advaita, and im sure other philosopies the perminant stopping of thought is Enlightenment or Self-Realization.

You feel you need the mind, so you cant imagine not having it forever. But those who calm the mind and rest in the emptiness feel no need, desire, or attachment to thoughts.

 

[dharma_seeker]

Yeah you can.

According to Zen, Taoism, Advaita, and im sure other philosopies the perminant stopping of thought is Enlightenment or Self-Realization.

You feel you need the mind, so you cant imagine not having it forever. But those who calm the mind and rest in the emptiness feel no need, desire, or attachment to thoughts.

Yes you can. But that enlightenment can only be achieved when the Karma account is null.

 

[Flow]

Yes you can. But that enlightenment can only be achieved when the Karma account is null.

I dissagree with this statement. No, your Karma need not be on null. All you need to do it stop thoughts. Ramana Maharshi said that once you abide in the self, karma will exhaust itself. This shows that you still have karma but that you have detached youself from it and are now just allowing it to exhaust.

And what do you mean by that Enlightenment. There is only ONE Enlightenment. But, probably because of the mind, it appears as if there is different forms of it.

 

[dharma_seeker]

I dissagree with this statement. No, your Karma need not be on null. All you need to do it stop thoughts. Ramana Maharshi said that once you abide in the self, karma will exhaust itself. This shows that you still have karma but that you have detached youself from it and are now just allowing it to exhaust.

And what do you mean by that Enlightenment. There is only ONE Enlightenment. But, probably because of the mind, it appears as if there is different forms of it.

You can certainly cease further Karmic accumulation through the practice of Yoga/samadhi as well. But we are living in this world and have to perform our actions rather than staying in Samadhi all the time and this way it is hard to keep the mind still while at working position. So, one way to not produce Karma is to act selflessly, without ego, without the desire for any reward and surrendering the fruits to LORD. This will stop further accumulation of KArma and will help you get closer to enlightenment. Now, what about the past Prarabdh Karma? Who is going to account for them? You cannot destroy the past Karma by stilling the mind? You still have to live the life as per your past Karma that has been destined accordingly.

By that enlightenment I mean the stage of enlightenment, at which one can still the mind like in Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is called Jivan Mukta. The person is still here living on Earth and he/She has realized the self but still has to undergo the past Karmic effects. Unless your Karma account is not null, you cannot receive the full enlightenment stage where the illusion has disappeared, mind does not exist, realized the self, complete union with void/GOD AND THERE IS NO MORE REBIRTH since Prarabdh Karma (past Karma) has finished.

There are three kinds of Prarabdha karma: Ichha (personally desired), Anichha (without desire) and Parechha (due to others' desire). For a self realized person, a Jivanmukta, there is no Ichha-Prarabdha but the two others, Anichha and Parechha, remain, which even a jivanmukta has to undergo.

 

[Flow]

By that enlightenment I mean the stage of enlightenment.

There are no stages of enlightenment. The stages only exist in the Mind. There is only one. that is why Zen talks about instant enlightenment. If there were stages such instant enlightenmetn wouldnt exist because they would have to go threw the states. Enlightenment is simple, like everything. The mind allows difficulties to arise like, "its hard", "I cant do that". It also trys to put everything into stages, into catagories instead of letting it be. Enlightenment is the cessation of stages, therefore enlightenment has no stages.

Just eliminate the mind and you will see.

 

[dharma_seeker]

There are no stages of enlightenment. The stages only exist in the Mind. There is only one. that is why Zen talks about instant enlightenment. If there were stages such instant enlightenmetn wouldnt exist because they would have to go threw the states. Enlightenment is simple, like everything. The mind allows difficulties to arise like, "its hard", "I cant do that". It also trys to put everything into stages, into catagories instead of letting it be. Enlightenment is the cessation of stages, therefore enlightenment has no stages.

Just eliminate the mind and you will see.

There is many processes, techniques, ways, yogas, that can lead to enlightenment.

In yogic meditation, there is activation of chakras, that one goes through. There is activation of Kundalini Shakti and it activates the lowest Mulathara Chakra and rises upward to Sahasrara Chakra...leading to enlightenment.

 

[Flow]

There is many processes, techniques, ways, yogas, that can lead to enlightenment.

In yogic meditation, there is activation of chakras, that one goes through. There is activation of Kundalini Shakti and it activates the lowest Mulathara Chakra and rises upward to Sahasrara Chakra...leading to enlightenment.

I see. From that view your absolutly right!
I just look at it purly from a thought stand point. If i am thinking, im not enlightened. If im not thinking, i am!

BTW, I never really cared about chakras, or things like that. I dont see that you have to bring some Kundalini energy from the base, up to the head and then BOOOOM! enlightenment occurs. No, just lack of thought is enough.

 

[joea]

I meant to say how can you stop Karma's effect? I know you have to do Karma to exist.

Your thoughts, your actions, and your words all leads to KARMA. I disagree with your one point that if I unintentionally kill an insect/a being then that would be ineffective KARMA. It is like saying if I unintentionally kill a human, the law of the country will forgive me because i didn't intend to do so. Done intentionally/unintentionally it will accumulate Karma and will be effective. But the effect of the done intentionally will be much greater than the one done unintentionally. Another example, out of my ignorance and ego, I insulted someone who was supposed to be respected. I did this unintentionally in a way since the illusion of ego and ignorance was there. To clear this ego and ignorance, the Karma effect will take place to make me understand the mistakes and clear by ego/ignorance.

My question remains, How to Stop the effect of Karma if there is no GOD?? You can still your mind but that will only stop it for that period of time. What about the rest of time when your mind is not still??

The weight of the Karma must also be taken into consideration..to step on an insect and killing someone unintentionally is not the same...I think we are off topic here, but it is always good to know what we are learning. There are different types of Karma that explains that.

 

[zenzero]

Friend dharma seeker,

Understand that thoughts can be permanently stilled and only then does one be a *BUDDHA*.
The other ways /process of yoga, kundalini rising happen simultaneously with stilling of the mind, even the breathing becomes slow and steady. So either one attempts at stilling the mind and the rest falls in place or practice yoga and the mind stills or try and raise the kundilini and the rest follows or simply be aware of the breathing which is called *anapanasati* by Gautama buddha or rythamic breathing of Ravishankar labelled Sudarshan kriya.
The final result is harmony of body and mind resulting in steady breathing, kundilini rising, stilling of the mind etc. etc.

Love & rgds

 

[dharma_seeker]

The weight of the Karma must also be taken into consideration..to step on an insect and killing someone unintentionally is not the same...I think we are off topic here, but it is always good to know what we are learning. There are different types of Karma that explains that.

Yeah. I agree and I did include that the effect will be different in that post.

 

[Satsangi]

Stilling of mind is essential - by whatever means- I agree with Zenzero. But, that is the first step. Stilling of mind itself is not enlightenment. Stilling of mind opens the gate to enlightenment. Prarabdha Karma will happen- whether u still ur mind or not. But, after the mind is stilled, one will not have any desire from the karmas that are performed and hence will not accumulate any "vasana" which is the real cause of rebirth. Vasana is a strong desire or Karma that will leave its "imprint" on the Jeeva. Hence, after the mind is stilled, one does become "Jeevan Mukta"; this in my opinion is not equal to the enlightenment, but is required for enlightenment.

Different systems and sects have defined Moksha or enlightenment or realization or Nirvana in different ways.

Regards,

 

[Apollonius]

I have been dialouging with an athiest on another forum about the concept of karma and rebirth. She posed a theoretical situation that if an evil agency, alters your mind to change you into a killer temporarily, and then changes you back to your normal self, should you be punished as it is akin to being punished/suffering for not rememebring what you did in your past life?

Is the dead person that you killed only temporarily dead?

I said that if someone alters your mind delibratley it is not your fault.

At no time does another have complete control of your mind. It simply isn't possible in that ultimately you entertain those thoughts which you allow to enter your mind.

I said that everything that happens to you in this life is because of what you did in your past life.

Everything happens because of what you are actively doing now.

She answered that, ''And if you follow the rule, then the evil agency temporarily turning you into a murderer was also a result of what you did in a past life; thus contradicting your assertion that "someone altering your mind" matters.''

I don't really know how to answer this, any help?

Everyone has the ability to choose between the two inclinations, whether good or evil, it's entirely up to the individual to decide, .. karma is what results from such decisions.

 

[Satsangi]

Friend satsangi,



You are right, the word used should be UNDERSTANDING rather than EXPERIENCES.
The mind does not needs any threatening as only awareness dispels all darkness.
Best Wishes!
Love & rgds

Friend Zenzero,

Mind cannot exist independent of "consciousness" or "Self" or "Atman". It always listens and follows like a good child once it realizes that it can no longer lead the way and has to listen to the "boss"- the "Atman".

Understanding is also a function of intellect which is again one of the "Anthakarana" and a derivative of rajas ahamkar.

Regards,

 

[zenzero]

Friend satsangi,

Mind cannot exist independent of "consciousness" or "Self" or "Atman". It always listens and follows like a good child once it realizes that it can no longer lead the way and has to listen to the "boss"- the "Atman".

Understanding is also a function of intellect which is again one of the "Anthakarana" and a derivative of rajas ahamkar.

Probably am not good with words maybe the word is not experience or understanding BUT *INSIGHT*.
Love & rgds

 

[Satsangi]

Friend satsangi,



Probably am not good with words maybe the word is not experience or understanding BUT *INSIGHT*.
Love & rgds

Friend Zenzero,

Nobody is good enough with the words to describe the Truth; its only described as "not this", "not this".... (neti...neti)...... As U said before... TRUTH ONCE STATED IS FALSIFIED.

Regards,