"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Brian2]

1.) Nobody is "bringing up" boys to be girls or vice versa. 2.) That's not how gender dysphoria works. Also, there are many men with feminine traits and women with masculine traits; it's not always 100% one or the other. They're innate and not instilled.

Yes men exhibit female traits and females exhibit male traits and we live life that way.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yes men exhibit female traits and females exhibit male traits and we live life that way.

Then what was your point?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I did not say that.

Then what are you saying?

Something that comes to mind is that males are generally more thing oriented and females are more person and relationship oriented.

You realise that these qualities can be socially imposed, right? So, the "traits" you're talking about are literally "things that are socially and culturally imposed on us".

Also, you would not therefore argue that a biological woman who is "thing oriented" therefore doesn't count as a woman. So, if these are the traits you were talking about when you said "Masculine traits remain in the boys and feminine traits in the girls", that statement is just false. Obviously, "masculine traits" and "feminine traits" are variable and non-exclusive.

Take people past adolescence and to an age of more clarity and maturity about sexual orientation and/or gender.

Literally true of all medical intervention. The intervention should come when it's needed.

And probably for good reason.

Right. So what's the issue?

If some young people think they are not their biological gender and come out the other side of that confusion thinking that they actually are their biological gender but are actually homosexual, then plainly it has a lot to do with them either being of not being trans.

Hence the difference between "non-gender conforming" behaviour and "being trans". This is like arguing that there are a lot of people who find a lump and think it might be cancer, but it turns out not to be cancer, are an argument against treating cancer.

The point is that being gay doesn't necessarily mean they aren't trans. Non-gender conforming behaviour and homosexuality are two different things, and proper and timely medical diagnosis and intervention accounts for that. Gay kids aren't "being trans'ed".

Puberty is not a disease, it is something we all go through to reach adulthood and hopefully more maturity about who we are and what we want to be.

That's not even approaching a response to what I wrote. Read what I write more carefully and respond to the actual points being made in future.

 

[Tamino]

Puberty is not a disease and "needing" the treatment sounds too strong a term.
We all go through tough things in puberty and no treatment is going to make a male into a female or a female into a male, whether it is started earlier or later.

Let's do a thought experiment.
Imagine, you're an adult man, you identify as male, you have a penis, you are reasonably fit and you are currently trying to grow a beard because you like the style.
Then, one day, you notice that the beard is not growing, your facial hair is very sparse. Also, your penis seems to be shrinking and your chest is puffing up... Not with muscle, though... You're growing breasts.
You go to the doctor. The doctor explains to you not to worry. This is not a disease, it's a natural hormonal change. She could feed you hormone blockers or even testosterone to stop and reverse these changes... But that would be a serious medical procedure.
Instead, why don't you talk to a therapist about accepting your biological body as it is? If you still feel uncomfortable with your breasts and small penis in two or three years, we can talk about hormone therapy. The breasts may need to be surgically removed if we wait, but still: let them develop first, maybe you will come to your senses and understand that there's nothing wrong with your biology.

That is what you're suggesting to put trans teens through, if you argue for strict age limits an no intervention during puberty.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes men exhibit female traits and females exhibit male traits and we live life that way.

What are "female traits" and what are "male traits?"
Do you think such things are fixed, or do they change over time?

 

[icehorse]

That is what you're suggesting to put trans teens through, if you argue for strict age limits an no intervention during puberty.

No, your scenario is far removed from what a kid experiencing GD is going through.

And importantly, to call a kid with GD a "trans teen" is to dangerously jump the gun psychologically. Many teens with GD grow out of it and do not end up trans. Some kids end up trans, some do not.

So what's your goal for kids experiencing GD? It sounds like your goal is to help them transition? That's an activist's goal, not a medical one. For kids with GD, THE ONLY ETHICAL MEDICAL GOAL, is to help them feel better emotionally.

 

[Father Heathen]

It is a natural thing to protect children and yourself from perceived threats.

But to fabricate threats is a manipulative political ploy.

And that seems to be the problem. People claim to be female and want to use women's toilets etc when their outward appearance is not close to the local stereotype.
It could be a problem with the law that enables someone to decide that they are not their biological gender.

There have been girls and women who were harassed and falsely accused of being trans because they weren't consider feminine or pretty enough, so do you propose genital inspectors stand guard outside public restrooms? Again, trans people been using the restrooms that correspond with how they identify for decades and most people have been none the wiser.

 

[icehorse]

There have been girls and women who were harassed and falsely accused of being trans because they weren't consider feminine or pretty enough, so do you propose genital inspectors stand guard outside public restrooms? Again, trans people been using the restrooms that correspond with how they identify for decades and most people have been none the wiser.

Self-id laws are relatively new, and bad men ARE taking advantage of them. We're not living in the past decades you so fondly remember, it's now 2024.

 

[Father Heathen]

Self-id laws are relatively new, and bad men ARE taking advantage of them. We're not living in the past decades you so fondly remember, it's now 2024.

Nah, just political fearmongering and culture war witch hunt nonsense.

Cis Woman Mistaken as Transgender Records Being Berated in Bathroom

She stayed cool, calm, and collected as she recorded a stranger's demand that she identify her gender.

www.advocate.com

Grandparent shuts down school sport event falsely accusing girl of being trans

Athletics competition was disrupted in Canadian town of Kelowna, British Columbia

www.independent.co.uk

 

[icehorse]

Nah, just political fearmongering and culture war witch hunt nonsense.

Cis Woman Mistaken as Transgender Records Being Berated in Bathroom

She stayed cool, calm, and collected as she recorded a stranger's demand that she identify her gender.

www.advocate.com

Grandparent shuts down school sport event falsely accusing girl of being trans

Athletics competition was disrupted in Canadian town of Kelowna, British Columbia

www.independent.co.uk

Sorry, there ARE new self-id laws, and I give your individual anecdotes the weight they deserve, which is very little.

We can swap individual anecdotes back and forth all day, waste of time wouldn't you say?

 

[Tamino]

No, your scenario is far removed from what a kid experiencing GD is going through.

Is it? Strange, because this is exactly the type of thing I heard from trans people in my group...

And importantly, to call a kid with GD a "trans teen" is to dangerously jump the gun psychologically. Many teens with GD grow out of it and do not end up trans. Some kids end up trans, some do not.

I am not disputing that. We were in exactly that discussion with @Brian2 : it was proposed to postpone all treatment till after puberty because kids might have some symptoms of GD but not end up wanting to transition.
My counter-argument was that if you postpone treatment for all, you're causing suffering to those who ARE trans.

So what's your goal for kids experiencing GD? It sounds like your goal is to help them transition?

Your putting words in my mouth. As I said before: I 'm in favor of offering treatment to the best of the medical standard. Which means:
- acknowledge their desired identity, but don't push them into any conclusion. (Again: breaking gender stereotypes helps. They need to know that it's fine to wear a dress sometimes, even if you still identify as a boy. And that it's okay to be confused and explore different options)
- Offer counseling, help a social transition if desired (wearing other clothes, using a different name in public etc.)
- be open about medical options and their consequences
- include parents and medical professionals in any decisions, but give the teens a final say

For kids with GD, THE ONLY ETHICAL MEDICAL GOAL, is to help them feel better emotionally.

Yes. And if they need hormone therapy to feel better, then that's what they should get.

 

[Father Heathen]

Sorry, there ARE new self-id laws, and I give your individual anecdotes the weight they deserve, which is very little.

We can swap individual anecdotes back and forth all day, waste of time wouldn't you say?

Sorry, decades of transwomen using women's restrooms simply hasn't resulted in them erupting into the rapefests that you claim they should.

 

[icehorse]

Sorry, decades of transwomen using women's restrooms simply hasn't resulted in them erupting into the rapefests that you claim they should.

strawman - on steroids

 

[icehorse]

Your putting words in my mouth. As I said before: I 'm in favor of offering treatment to the best of the medical standard. Which means:
- acknowledge their desired identity, but don't push them into any conclusion. (Again: breaking gender stereotypes helps. They need to know that it's fine to wear a dress sometimes, even if you still identify as a boy. And that it's okay to be confused and explore different options)
- Offer counseling, help a social transition if desired (wearing other clothes, using a different name in public etc.)
- be open about medical options and their consequences
- include parents and medical professionals in any decisions, but give the teens a final say

fwiw, I prefaced by saying "it sounds like", because I didn't want to put words in your mouth.

==

Let's say we had a crystal ball, and we knew which GD kids would have their GD resolved naturally. Do you think that the non-medical interventions you describe above are without negative side effects for these non-trans kids?

Yes. And if they need hormone therapy to feel better, then that's what they should get.

Hormone therapy is dangerous and irreversible and it's efficacy is unproven.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry, there ARE new self-id laws, and I give your individual anecdotes the weight they deserve, which is very little.

We can swap individual anecdotes back and forth all day, waste of time wouldn't you say?

I'm not surprised you so easily dismiss real problems faced by women. And it is a result of the rhetoric you push. Women aren't getting sexually attacked more, they're getting physically attacked more because people like you who believe "you must be this feminine to pass" and believe they are protecting women who have brought this on.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hormone therapy is dangerous and irreversible and it's efficacy is unproven.

Note that some effects are reversible,
& others aren't.

Gender-affirming hormone therapy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But for kids who are trans, there are deleterious
effects from not having hormone therapy.
Balancing risks when choosing a course of
treatment cannot be a one size fits all standard.
Careful evaluation of the patient by qualified
professionals should guide choices.

 

[SkepticThinker]

strawman - on steroids

This was your claim:
"Self-id laws are relatively new, and bad men ARE taking advantage of them. We're not living in the past decades you so fondly remember, it's now 2024."

The response you received:
"Sorry, decades of transwomen using women's restrooms simply hasn't resulted in them erupting into the rapefests that you claim they should."

You've now claimed "strawman on steroids."

Where???

 

[SkepticThinker]

fwiw, I prefaced by saying "it sounds like", because I didn't want to put words in your mouth.

==

Let's say we had a crystal ball, and we knew which GD kids would have their GD resolved naturally. Do you think that the non-medical interventions you describe above are without negative side effects for these non-trans kids?



Hormone therapy is dangerous and irreversible and it's efficacy is unproven.

This doesn't address what was said though, which was, "Yes. And if they need hormone therapy to feel better, then that's what they should get."

 

[icehorse]

This doesn't address what was said though, which was, "Yes. And if they need hormone therapy to feel better, then that's what they should get."

The problem with that approach is that hormone therapy is dangerous and irreversible and is NOT proven to make them feel better.

Would you agree that - as a general approach to healthcare - we should not pursue dangerous interventions until we know they help?

 

[icehorse]

This was your claim:
"Self-id laws are relatively new, and bad men ARE taking advantage of them. We're not living in the past decades you so fondly remember, it's now 2024."

The response you received:
"Sorry, decades of transwomen using women's restrooms simply hasn't resulted in them erupting into the rapefests that you claim they should."

You've now claimed "strawman on steroids."

Where???

Three reasons (at least):

1 - I'm not talking about transwomen, I'm talking about bad men taking advantage of the situation.
2 - I'm talking about ALL safe spaces for women, not just rest rooms
3 - I never claimed there would be a "rapefest".

So heathen's post misrepresented my arguments in at least these three ways. If that's not strawmanning, then can you define strawman?