"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[SkepticThinker]

Last time I checked, we were on a debate forum. We debate on a wide range of topics.

I find it very bizarre that on this topic, suddenly supporters of GAC don't want healthy debate

==

My view is that suddenly, everyone is interested in everyone else's psychological and medical issues?

When's the last time you debated the efficacy and practically of say, blood thinning medication?

It seems people only want to inject themselves into the most personal of psychiatric and medical decisions other people are making, like abortion and GAC. It's weird to me.

As for injecting ourselves, well we should have - collectively - raised a huge uproar while the opioid crisis was unfolding. The thing is, THIS topic has sadly become highly politicized and one side effect of that is that advocates spend a lot of time trying to obscure the facts and fight transparency.

My father fell victim to this, unfortunately. This is not the same discussion as the one about GAC.

European countries tend to have more centralized healthcare systems. This allows for a better distribution of true expertise. They are abandoning GAC.

Pretty much every country in the world has a more universal healthcare system. I live in Canada.

"Gender-affirming health care — an approach that affirms a trans person's gender identity instead of trying to change it — is endorsed by medical associations in Canada and around the world, including the Canadian Psychological Association and the Canadian Pediatric Society."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/gender-affirming-care-youth-1.7021529

One problem with the US system is that advocates often have an outsized voice in creating policies and protocols.

That's your claim, anyway.

It would be nice to think that every patient would be able to see top specialists, but the reality is far from that. So it's a lot more common that a non-specialist doctor is confronted with a new situation and they're bound to just fall back on established protocols - which again are often heavily distorted by activists and oligarchs.

That's why the protocols exist in the first place. So there's an available plan to follow, created by experts who know what they're talking about.

 

[icehorse]

When's the last time you debated the efficacy and practically of say, blood thinning medication?

Despite what my many detractors here on RF like to claim, I mostly only post on topics where I have some degree of understanding. I don't know anything about the pros and cons of blood thinners.

But - for example - I think that diet plays a HUGE role in good health and I think the government's take on diet, things like the "4 food groups" is horrific.

It seems people only want to inject themselves into the most personal of psychiatric and medical decisions other people are making, like abortion and GAC. It's weird to me.

Speaking only for myself, I'm extremely concerned about rights and personal freedoms. So I support a woman's right to choose. And I support preserving choices for children and youth, which imo, GAC does not. A very common side effect of GAC is that kids become sterile. So we have confused kids, who have never experienced sex or a grown up romantic relationship, and we're rushing them into interventions that will deny them those choices forever. And to boot, with only low quality evidence.

"Gender-affirming health care — an approach that affirms a trans person's gender identity instead of trying to change it — is endorsed by medical associations in Canada and around the world,

So let's circle back again: If a kid or youth is experiencing GD, what should be the number one goal of healthcare providers?

So there's an available plan to follow, created by experts who know what they're talking about.

While this is not unique, GAC is an example of a protocol developed and championed by advocates. WPATH is the driving force behind GAC, and WPATH is substantially motivated by advocacy, not purely the best healthcare outcomes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Before I respond in full, I have a related question for you. A lot of GAC advocates feel that teachers should NOT be required to disclose a kid's GD and/or gender identity to the parents. Where do you stand on this question?

I've taken no position yet.
Competing concerns are hard to balance.

 

[icehorse]

I've taken no position yet.
Competing concerns are hard to balance.

I'm not sure what competing concerns you're thinking about here?

So how do you feel about minimum age requirements for drinking and driving? If you think those make sense, why do you think GAC is different?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not sure what competing concerns you're thinking about here?

So how do you feel about minimum age requirements for drinking and driving? If you think those make sense, why do you think GAC is different?

Your questions appear to be fishing
for something to argue over, even
unrelated issues. I'm not playing.

 

[icehorse]

Your questions appear to be fishing
for something to argue over, even
unrelated issues. I'm not playing.

I don't think it's too tricky. Most of us appear to agree that young people aren't mature enough to drink alcohol or drive.

But advocates for GAC are arguing that somehow young people are mature enough to make irreversible, life altering decisions about extremely complex topics concerning sex, relationships, parenthood, and signing up for a lifetime of medical dependency.

So, you're willing to throw jabs, but when your logic is being questioned "you're not playing", sigh.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think it's too tricky.

Oh, but I know you are.
So I'm not playing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I find it very bizarre that on this topic, suddenly supporters of GAC don't want healthy debate

No, what you're doing is akin to someone warning about the toxins and dangers of Western Medicine while promoting stones and mystic energies. That's why you get the the rejection and opposition and *shock* debate against your dangerous and unethical ideas.

European countries tend to have more centralized healthcare systems. This allows for a better distribution of true expertise. They are abandoning GAC.

This is entirely false.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

European countries tend to have more centralized healthcare systems. This allows for a better distribution of true expertise. They are abandoning GAC.

HSE to establish new gender-affirming healthcare service in Ireland

While welcoming the plans for gender-affirming healthcare services, TENI highlighted the need for more immediate action from the HSE.

gcn.ie

Healthcare for Trans*gender People in Germany: Gaps, Challenges, and Perspectives - PMC

People whose gender does not correspond to the binary gender system, i.e., trans∗gender people, face two main problems when it comes to healthcare in Germany: (1) They often suffer from general psychiatric comorbidities as well as specific and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Meet the people making healthcare more accessible for trans kids

From Ireland to Spain, access to trans healthcare varies dramatically for young people, depending on where in the European Union they live. In some countries, it is virtually impossible. #EuropeNews

www.euronews.com

 

[icehorse]

This is entirely false.

On the topic of abandoning GAC - I should have been more specific, they are abandoning the Dutch Protocol which is what many of the GAC protocols is based upon. Of course they're still helping kids with GD.

 

[icehorse]

That's why you get the the rejection and opposition and *shock* debate against your dangerous and unethical ideas.

GAC has been politicized, and is not good medicine. Ask any doctor - in general - whether it's good medicine to administer dangerous interventions without good evidence of efficacy.

I await your citation of a meta-study that provides high quality evidence supporting GAC.

 

[Father Heathen]

Despite what my many detractors here on RF like to claim, I mostly only post on topics where I have some degree of understanding.

How and why did you become an expert on the topic of Transgenderism vs. other medical topics?

 

[Father Heathen]

Here's another example of a student of being harassed after being falsely accused of being trans:

Utah school board promises ‘prompt action’ against Natalie Cline — the Legislature eyes impeachment

Leaders of the Utah State Board of Education promised to take “prompt action” against member Natalie Cline after her controversial post where she shared photos of a high school athlete to raise questions about the minor’s gender.

www.sltrib.com

 

[Father Heathen]

Here's another example of a student of being harassed after being falsely accused of being trans:

Utah school board promises ‘prompt action’ against Natalie Cline — the Legislature eyes impeachment

Leaders of the Utah State Board of Education promised to take “prompt action” against member Natalie Cline after her controversial post where she shared photos of a high school athlete to raise questions about the minor’s gender.

www.sltrib.com

Republicans really aught to keep their noses away from the genitals of children.

 

[icehorse]

How and why did you become an expert on the topic of Transgenderism vs. other medical topics?

Why: because GAC is a scandal, and because much of what trans activists do is needlessly zero-sum and tramples on others' rights.

how: as you do

(and I never claimed expertise, sigh. so what is it with you, does every post have to include a strawman? sincerely, you might find it an interesting challenge to debate without using strawman arguments.)

 

[icehorse]

Here's another example of a student of being harassed after being falsely accused of being trans:

Utah school board promises ‘prompt action’ against Natalie Cline — the Legislature eyes impeachment

Leaders of the Utah State Board of Education promised to take “prompt action” against member Natalie Cline after her controversial post where she shared photos of a high school athlete to raise questions about the minor’s gender.

www.sltrib.com

I'm in no way condoning what Cline did.

That said, what's your take on trans women competing against women in sports?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Despite what my many detractors here on RF like to claim, I mostly only post on topics where I have some degree of understanding.

Then why are you so frequently wrong? Why is what you say on par with Young Earth Creationist saying evolution is just a theory?

On the topic of abandoning GAC - I should have been more specific, they are abandoning the Dutch Protocol which is what many of the GAC protocols is based upon. Of course they're still helping kids with GD.

No, you just don't know what you're talking about. And just so you know, some European countries do let minors have access to hormones. Access to care may not be the best, but it's pretty crappy in America overall as well.

GAC has been politicized, and is not good medicine. Ask any doctor - in general - whether it's good medicine to administer dangerous interventions without good evidence of efficacy.

It's been politicized by people like you.

I await your citation of a meta-study that provides high quality evidence supporting GAC.

I gave that long ago. "It's from activists" is how you dismissed it.

 

[icehorse]

Then why are you so frequently wrong? Why is what you say on par with Young Earth Creationist saying evolution is just a theory?

No, you just don't know what you're talking about. And just so you know, some European countries do let minors have access to hormones. Access to care may not be the best, but it's pretty crappy in America overall as well.

It's been politicized by people like you.

I gave that long ago. "It's from activists" is how you dismissed it.

As I said earlier today in a related thread, I will not respond further to any poster who makes personal attacks.

have a fine day.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm in no way condoning what Cline did.

That said, what's your take on trans women competing against women in sports?

Depends on the sport. If there's a clear unfair advantage, then alternative arrangements should be made.

 

[icehorse]

Depends on the sport. If there's a clear unfair advantage, then alternative arrangements should be made.

Hey! It seems we're of a mind - mostly - on this topic!