[Hindus Only] Question for Hindus

[Aupmanyav]

.. but right to us Gaudiyas.

You are not 'gaudiya', you are 'nitai gaudiya', like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Rastafarians are to Christianity and Ahmadiyyas, Bahais are to Islam. Let us get this clear.

 

[atanu]

My three cents. Ymmv.

1. A Bhakti such as of Chaitanya is without a peer. It does not require any theorising. I bow down to that.

2. Understanding the raasleela story of Shri Krishna with Gopis can remove lust from individual egos. This story reflects upanishadic teaching that through senses of Jiva-s, it is paramatman alone who experiences. The consciousness is vested in the root. We mental beings, like fools, think inert organs are conscious of their own. And materialistic fools even think that inert materials interact to generate awareness.

3. In mental plane only we theorise "My God of such and such form is the greatest.....". In yoga with aatma (nirvikalpa samadhi) no such identity is to be seen, found, and experienced. What is experienced is only the sat chit ananda Self that Vedas call as flow of Soma.

YMMV.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Terese ji

I'm interested in whether Kalyan or Nitai dasa is wrong, and who is right.

I will of course say that Nitai Dasa ji is correct not just because our sampradayas are very close but because the attitude is open it is one of devotion , ..if one reads the Gita which is common to both Sri and Gaudiya Vaisnavas the Gita it self will tell you what is correct , ....

as far as l am concerned it is never right to try to discredit anothers sampradaya , ...please considder carefuly what Krsna says in these two verses , ...

advesta sarva-bhutanam
maitrah karuna eva ca
nirmamo nirahankarah
sama-duhkha-sukhah ksami
santustah satatam yogi
yatatma drdha-niscayah
mayy arpita-mano-buddhir
yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah

One who is not envious but who is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor, who is free from false ego and equal both in happiness and distress, who is always satisfied and engaged in devotional service with determination and whose mind and intelligence are in agreement with Me-he is very dear to Me.
........Bhagavad Gita Ch ..12 V ..13-14​

yasman nodvijate loko
lokan nodvijate ca yah
harsamarsa-bhayodvegair
mukto yah sa ca me priyah

He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not dirturbed by anxiety, who is steady in happiness and distress, is very dear to Me. .....Ch ..12 v ..15​

what ever Sampradaya we have fortune to belong to we should not hurt , insult or disrupt another Devotee , ...this would not be pleasing to Sri Krsna

 

[atanu]

My three cents. Ymmv.

1. A Bhakti such as of Chaitanya is without a peer. It does not require any theorising. I bow down to that.

2. Understanding the raasleela story of Shri Krishna with Gopis can remove lust from individual egos. This story reflects upanishadic teaching that through senses of Jiva-s, it is paramatman alone who experiences. The consciousness is vested in the root. We mental beings, like fools, think inert organs are conscious of their own. And materialistic fools even think that inert materials interact to generate awareness.

3. In mental plane only we theorise "My God of such and such form is the greatest.....". In yoga with aatma (nirvikalpa samadhi) no such identity is to be seen, found, and experienced. What is experienced is only the sat chit ananda Self that Vedas call as flow of Soma.

YMMV.

I do not think that in one-pointed-devotion, there is any scope of intellectual vomiting as to who worships the higher God.

When a person repeatedly claims superiority of one's deity (actually one's preference), it IMO is a pointer to ego.

 

[kalyan]

namaskaram Kalyan ji



Prabhu ji what ever l say , you will not listen , prehaps you will listen to Sri Krsna himself , .....

​

​

advesta sarva-bhutanam
maitrah karuna eva ca
nirmamo nirahankarah
sama-duhkha-sukhah ksami
santustah satatam yogi
yatatma drdha-niscayah
mayy arpita-mano-buddhir
yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah​

One who is not envious but who is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor, who is free from false ego and equal both in happiness and distress, who is always satisfied and engaged in devotional service with determination and whose mind and intelligence are in agreement with Me-he is very dear to Me.
........Bhagavad Gita Ch ..12 V ..13-14​

No , I will not like to argue , ...I hope also that you wear Tilak as mark of respect to Visnu and that You do not eat meat out of Kindness to other living entities , ....

​

yasman nodvijate loko
lokan nodvijate ca yah
harsamarsa-bhayodvegair
mukto yah sa ca me priyah​

He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not dirturbed by anxiety, who is steady in happiness and distress, is very dear to Me. .....Ch ..12 v ..15
​

Why, ....out of love and deep gratitude , .....were it not for Sri Krsna Chaitanya and his movement of congregational chanting which has spread allover the world , ....I as a poor Britisher would have no oppertunity to become aquainted with Sanatana Dharma so what little Knowledge and devotion I have is entirely due to the mercy of Sri Chaitanya as it is he who inspired and instructed his own decilples to take this Congergational chanting to every country and every town , ....




My most humble appologies if I offend you , ...I did not understand that Sri Ramanujaacharya Sampradaya has exclusive right to use saranagathi ??? .......to sanve confusion I shall in future use Saranam , .....as Saranam is particularly dear to me

"Sriman Narayana charanau saranam prapadye" ....''Sri Krsna saranam mama''...I do not see that there is difference , ....

ok i understand that chaitanya got you into Krushna bhakti, but as human beings we constantly evolve, and our knowledge expands day by day, so instead of trusting controversial stories, why can't you hold on to the established authoritative ones? Like you can always approach the feet of Sri Maha Lakshmi/Bhoo devi/Neela devi instead of Radha and when you have every chance to worship the feet of an acharya like Ramanuja why go to the others who have all sorts of fake stories around them ? Its like resorting to begging when you have millions in the bank already there for you

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Kalyan Ji

ok i understand that chaitanya got you into Krushna bhakti, but as human beings we constantly evolve, and our knowledge expands day by day, so instead of trusting controversial stories, why can't you hold on to the established authoritative ones? Like you can always approach the feet of Sri Maha Lakshmi/Bhoo devi/Neela devi instead of Radha and when you have every chance to worship the feet of an acharya like Ramanuja why go to the others who have all sorts of fake stories around them ? Its like resorting to begging when you have millions in the bank already there for you

Such a nice Question , ..I will answer fully this evening my time is very limited this morning , ...

 

[निताइ dasa]

so instead of trusting controversial stories, why can't you hold on to the established authoritative ones? Like you can always approach the feet of Sri Maha Lakshmi/Bhoo devi/Neela devi instead of Radha and when you have every chance to worship the feet of an acharya like Ramanuja why go to the others who have all sorts of fake stories around them ?

But you see prabhuji, it is only to you that these stories are controversial, because they differ from what your acharyas have taught. For us, it makes sense in accordance with what has been taught to me by my Gurudeva. Having surrendered to my Gurudeva and my Guru Varga I must consider their Vani and authoritative first and foremost, everything else is secondary. Vedic Authority ultimately depends on Gurudeva and the Guru Parampara. I highly respect Maha Lakshmi Maa because I concider Her non-different from Radharani. Still because our Istha-Deva is Sri Krsna, our heart is attracted to the Lotus Feet of Radharani. We simply want to be the servants of the servants of Radhika. In the words of our dear Raghunatha das Goswami:

anāradhya rādhā-padāmbhoja-reṇum
anāśritya vṛndāṭavīḿ tat-padāńkam
asambhāṣya tad-bhāva-gambhīra-cittān
kutaḥ śyāma-sindho rasa-syāva-gāhaḥ

"Without worshiping the pollen of Srimati Radha's lotus feet, without taking shelter of Sri Vrndavana, which bears Her footprints, and without respectfully greeting the great souls whose hearts are filled with deep love for Her, how will one be able to plunge into the nectar ocean of love for Lord Krsna?"

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

You are not 'gaudiya', you are 'nitai gaudiya', like Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Rastafarians are to Christianity and Ahmadiyyas, Bahais are to Islam. Let us get this clear.

are you being just a little Mischevious ????

as Chaitanya and Nityananda are one there can be very little difference between devotees of Chaitanya and Devotees of Nityananda as both came from the same bengali movement we are both Gaudiya

 

[kalyan]

But you see prabhuji, it is only to you that these stories are controversial, because they differ from what your acharyas have taught. For us, it makes sense in accordance with what has been taught to me by my Gurudeva. Having surrendered to my Gurudeva and my Guru Varga I must consider their Vani and authoritative first and foremost, everything else is secondary. Vedic Authority ultimately depends on Gurudeva and the Guru Parampara. I highly respect Maha Lakshmi Maa because I concider Her non-different from Radharani. Still because our Istha-Deva is Sri Krsna, our heart is attracted to the Lotus Feet of Radharani. We simply want to be the servants of the servants of Radhika. In the words of our dear Raghunatha das Goswami:

anāradhya rādhā-padāmbhoja-reṇum
anāśritya vṛndāṭavīḿ tat-padāńkam
asambhāṣya tad-bhāva-gambhīra-cittān
kutaḥ śyāma-sindho rasa-syāva-gāhaḥ

"Without worshiping the pollen of Srimati Radha's lotus feet, without taking shelter of Sri Vrndavana, which bears Her footprints, and without respectfully greeting the great souls whose hearts are filled with deep love for Her, how will one be able to plunge into the nectar ocean of love for Lord Krsna?"

If this is the case, how can you even claim that your sampradaya has roots in madhva lineage ? madhva sampradaya completely differs from yours and is diametrically opposite considering Vishnu as the highest supreme and no stuff of radha...... you are hijacking madhva sampradaya to establish this newly found faith ?

 

[निताइ dasa]

If this is the case, how can you even claim that your sampradaya has roots in madhva lineage ? madhva sampradaya completely differs from yours and is diametrically opposite considering Vishnu as the highest supreme and no stuff of radha...... you are hijacking madhva sampradaya to establish this newly found faith ?

Yes we may philosophically differ (and hence why we say that we are Gaudiyas not Tattvavadis), but still our Diksha line from Madhavacharaya's parampara is intact (and hence the mantras received are also authoritative). This diksha line comes through Madhav, but as we Gaudiya's understand, when Lord Chaitanya descended he revealed these concepts (like Radharani and Sri Krsna, again this is our view, you don't have to agree), which Madhavacharya did not reveal. The way we understand it, Madhavacharya preached according to the time and situation (his Dvaita philosphy was directly a refutation and counter to Srila Sankarcharya's Adwaita philosophy).. However our philosophy was established by Lord Chaitanya (whom be believe as Sri Hari Himself), and hence we accept His word as final. In-fact from the letters Ratikala ji posted, even the Madhavs accept us as an authoritative sampradaya though we may have minor disagreements.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Kalyan noticed that Nitai guru has saloon-cut hair. Is your acharya married, Nitai Das?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Kalyan noticed that Nitai guru has saloon-cut hair. Is your acharya married, Nitai Das?

No, Sannayasis do not marry.The reason for haircut I also explained in the post after Kalyanji's.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm interested in whether Kalyan or Nitai dasa is wrong, and who is right.

Depends on whom you ask. If you ask me, both are wrong.

 

[kalyan]

but still our Diksha line from Madhavacharaya's parampara is intact

how can this happen? how can there can be a diksha line from madhvas to your faith? are you saying madhvas deviated from their path into this ? madhvas is not philosophically different but completely opposite, i have no trouble with your faith but it has no pramana except for your guru lineage which can be created by anyone like the fake kanchi kamakoti lineage for advaitins. Your faith has no basis in veda, so if somebody at a later point comes and establishes some other philosophy , all the sheep again follow it, then it is complete chaos. In sanatana dharma, vedas are supreme authority, you are indirectly denying the vedas and that paramounts that you are ascribing to nAstika vAda....

 

[kalyan]

Kalyan noticed that Nitai guru has saloon-cut hair. Is your acharya married, Nitai Das?

I thought he has sikha at the back ? is my previous observation about the salon cut hair correct then? (subjective to materialistic world)

 

[निताइ dasa]

how can there can be a diksha line from madhvas to your faith? are you saying madhvas deviated from their path into this ?

Srila Lakshmi-pati tirtha (in Madhava's Sampradaya) gave Diksha to Srila Madhvendra Puri who in turn gave mantra diksha to Srila Iswara Puri who gave Diksha Mantra to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. That is our Diksha link.

Your faith has no basis in veda,

Of course we do, everything I have claimed by have supported by Vedic quotes. This includes Lord Chaitanya's prediction (from Bhagavatam). Think we are going in circles again...hahaha

 

[kalyan]

Srila Lakshmi-pati tirtha (in Madhava's Sampradaya) gave Diksha to Srila Madhvendra Puri who in turn gave mantra diksha to Srila Iswara Puri who gave Diksha Mantra to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. That is our Diksha link.

so when did the madhva philosophy broke to accomodate the new faith? at madhvendra/iswara/chaitanya?...if they broke it, why did they break it and what faults they found with madhva sampradaya and on whose authority they established this new faith...I am asking all pertinent questions

 

[निताइ dasa]

so when did the madhva philosophy broke to accomodate the new faith? at madhvendra/iswara/chaitanya?...why did they break it and what faults they found with madhva sampradaya and on whose authority they established this new faith...I am asking all pertinent questions

It didn't break, Diksha line (and hence Mantra authencity is still there), only siddhanta changed, for reasons I have described above. Lord Chaitanya being the Sri Krsna Himself (according to us), was the Yuga Avatar in Kaliyuga, and hence descended to establish Sankirtan Yagna. (as per "yajnaih sankirtana prayair" of Bhagavatam). Being Lord Hari, He gave Vraja Bhakti (unnatojjvala-rasāṁrasam) and established Yuga Dharma (which only a Yuga Avatar can do) hence why there is this branch in Sampradayas. I do not want to speak further about this here because it might hurt our Madhava brothers/sisters. I would be happy to discuss this with you thoroughly in private message.Anyway these are minor contradictions. We completley agree with Madhava that Visnu Tattva is supreme and only when it comes to Rasa-Vicara there is some difference (which Madhav as I am aware did not even discuss). Even the presence of Radharani does not contradict Madhavacharya as he remained silent on the issue.

 

[kalyan]

It didn't break, Diksha line (and hence Mantra authencity is still there), only siddhanta changed, for reasons I have described above. Lord Chaitanya being the Sri Krsna Himself, was the Yuga Avatar in Kaliyuga, and hence descended to establish Sankirtan Yagna. (as per "yajnaih sankirtana prayair" of Bhagavatam). Being Lord Hari, He gave Vraja Bhakti (unnatojjvala-rasāṁrasam) and established Yuga Dharma (which only a Yuga Avatar can do) hence why there is this branch in Sampradayas.

Lord Chaitanya being the Sri Krsna Himself--This is b.s, stop generalizing or putting your new faith meanings into other stuff. Any kid could spot this drama
Sri Krushna last avatara in Kali Yuga was of Sri Venkateswara, you are now again posting things which have no basis! Blasphemy.

You clearly escaped the question, who broke the madhva siddhanta to establish the new faith ? was it chaitanya? If so why did he break it and whose authority did he establish this faith? I now get the idea why you have to make chaitanya as god, because you have ZERO basis on the new faith, you even dont know!
Sri Krushna even when he comes does not cross a word of vedam! Only things that are in vedam is IN the bhagawadgita,

 

[निताइ dasa]

Sri Krushna last avatara in Kali Yuga was of Sri Venkateswar

Hmm....Okay where is your proof for this from Shastra? Why are you rejecting the verses I am giving from Bhagavatam?

Only things that are in vedam is IN the bhagawadgita,

Whomever said this? There are some schools in hinduism that don't accept Bhagavad Gita as pramana.

I now get the idea why you have to make chaitanya as god, because you have ZERO basis on the new faith,

I have given you our Bhasya on the Vedanta Sutras to read, clarifying our position in accordance with Shastra.