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Historical Accuracy in Scripture

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wasnt it a "peace keeper who
fired the fatal shot ? The rioters didnt have guns.
One does not need guns to be armed. And yes, a police officer was finally forced to shoot one of them. It was a female that was the first member of an armed mob breaking into to an area that was too close to the Congressmen that the mob was howling a bout that was shot and her death made them all realize that this was real. Just because she herself was not armed is not an excuse. When a mob attacks it has to be dealt with as one body.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is a good point. The videos for the insurrection narrative seems to have been done like that. Apparently the police begun to shoot people with rubber bullets, which caused violence outside the building. And video material after that was used to make the situation look bad. Luckily we have the video material from inside the house, which shows there was no insurrection. But, I don't deny that there was violence outside the house, it just was not some kind of insurrection by Trump supporters.
No, we don't have the video that you're suggesting. What we have is hours and hours of footage showing an obvious insurrection. That's why it's been adjudicated that way in courts of law across the country.

You want to focus on the one heavily edited video that Tucker Carlson (a known liar) produced for you, but ignore the hours and hours of footage showing it was not peaceful in any sense of the word.

I watched the entire thing unfold, live on television, from start to finish in absolute shock of what I was seeing unfold before my eyes. I never thought I'd ever see such a thing in the USA. How about you?
If that would be true, why police allowed Trump supporters in and why they just walk peacefully in the house and are friendly with the guards?
One guy did. You want to focus on that one guy as though that was representative of the entire thing. Why???
That there was some collusion between Russia and Trump.
"But while Mueller may not have found any evidence that Trump associates conspired with Russia to interfere in the election, they nonetheless had a lot of contact with Russians leading up to Election Day. In fact, investigators have found that Trump and at least 17 of his campaign officials and advisors had more than 100 contacts between Trump associates and Russians, belying the campaign’s November 2016 claim that “there was no communication between the campaign and any foreign entity during the campaign.” According to reporting, many others associated with Trump were told about contacts with Russian-linked individuals."


Does that sound normal to you? Nothing to see here?
What would you be thinking if say, Joe Biden had done this?

For example in Finland more people die to Covid now than before the vaccine. I don't see how that could be called normal, nor that the vaccine is useful.
So ... just Finland then. One single country is your big example to show that vaccines don't work?


I don't see any evidence for this claim anywhere. Where did you get it from?

These stats don't seem to back up your claim:

Yes, the Ray Epps who said “Tomorrow we need to go into the Capitol.” Why is he not treated the same way as Trump?
Didn't you bother to read the article I linked for you?
He is the only evidently inciting the violence.
Nonsense.
Sorry I am not a biologist. :D But, maybe that is true, sorry about the mistake.

There is no reason to believe his life was in danger really. For example because the guards let the Trump supporters in and they were peaceful in the house.
Yes, there is reason to believe her life was in danger. I just gave you a bunch of reasons. Why did you ignore everything I said?

You need to get off this "the guards let them in" stuff. I just showed you actual footage of a violent mob smashing in windows and doors with makeshift weapons.

Why is it that every time I put evidence directly in front of your face, you completely ignore it??
Why do you believe he was a Trump supporter?
Because that's what the facts indicate:

"DePape posted rants on a blog and an online forum about aliens, communists, religious minorities, and global elites. He questioned the results of the 2020 election and echoed the baseless, right-wing QAnon conspiracy theory that claims the U.S. government is run by a cabal of devil-worshipping pedophiles. The websites were taken down shortly after his arrest."


"The reason he acted had nothing to do with Nancy Pelosi [and her] official duties as a member of Congress," defence attorney Jodi Linker told the court.

Instead, Ms Linker said he was driven by right-wing conspiracies that blame the country's demise on corrupt elites who use their status to spread lies, including facilitating the sexual abuse of children."




All of those things listed above are characteristics of Trump supporters.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Don't you think all evidence should be noticed? I don't deny there is videos of angry people outside the house. I only say, the videos from inside the house proves that there was no real insurrection.
This was in response to, "It's bizarre to me that you're focusing entirely on the video snippet that Tucker Carlson posted as representative of what happened on January 6th, when there are literally hours and hours of footage showing the angry mobbing smashing in the windows with poles and other weapons; trapping and nearly squishing to death a security guard with a revolving door;"

Yes, this evidence was noticed!! It was presented at the January 6th Congressional hearings. You seem to be the only person who hasn't seen it yet. You have to open your eyes and look, if you want to see it.

Here is some more video footage from inside the building that you seriously, really need to watch. Plus, you can also watch them smash the doors and windows in and climb through them:


Only person killed that day was unarmed Ashli Babbitt, by police or guard. IF she would have been a black person, there would probably have been riots because of that, but because she was white, no one cares.
You know why? She and the mob were trying to smash in the door and window to the senate chamber where Senators were holed up hiding from the angry mob, with guards with their weapons drawn at the door, trying to hold off the mob.

Other people did die as as result of that day. And hundreds were injured, most of them being police officers:


"Criminal charges:

  • More than 284 defendants have been charged with assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers or employees, including approximately 99 individuals who have been charged with using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer.
    • Approximately 140 police officers were assaulted January 6 at the Capitol, including about 80 from the U.S. Capitol Police and about 60 from the Metropolitan Police Department.
  • Approximately 11 individuals have been arrested on a series of charges that relate to assaulting a member of the media, or destroying their equipment, on January 6.
  • Approximately 860 defendants have been charged with entering or remaining in a restricted federal building or grounds. Of those, 91 defendants have been charged with entering a restricted area with a dangerous or deadly weapon.
  • Approximately 59 defendants have been charged with destruction of government property, and approximately 36 defendants have been charged with theft of government property.
  • More than 295 defendants have been charged with corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding, or attempting to do so.
  • Approximately 50 defendants have been charged with conspiracy, either: (a) conspiracy to obstruct a congressional proceeding, (b) conspiracy to obstruct law enforcement during a civil disorder, (c) conspiracy to injure an officer, (d) seditious conspiracy, or some combination of the four. "

I have no idea what news sources you get your information from, but they seem awfully poor to me, if you aren't aware of any of this stuff.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
One does not need guns to be armed. And yes, a police officer was finally forced to shoot one of them. It was a female that was the first member of an armed mob breaking into to an area that was too close to the Congressmen that the mob was howling a bout that was shot and her death made them all realize that this was real. Just because she herself was not armed is not an excuse. When a mob attacks it has to be dealt with as one body.
"Armed" "forced" and " proportionate"
all need very liberal interpretation.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"Armed" "forced" and " proportionate"
all need very liberal interpretation.
Does it? I would disagree with that. When a door is shut and locked and yet a mob breaks the door down wouldn't you call that "forced"? I would Haven't you seen the videos of that event? And armed is easy. Talk to a police officer on what an armed threat is and why. The human body is a fragile thing at times. And I was amazed at the restraint of the police during this whole thing. It was not until the mob tried to cross a line that could not be crossed where gunfire was used.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So, they say "they attempted insurrection, because Trump ordered it"? If that is true, I would like to see in what way Trump ordered it, at this point the claim seems to be based on pure imagination.
Their testimonies were public during the House committee investigation results. I think if you go to YouTube and search for "house committee hearings day 1" through day 7, you will be able to watch.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I never stated nor implied we should have open borders, but I did, and I will restate, that some seem to have no compassion for those who are suffering that have been fleeing some of the Latin American countries. Didn't Jesus and his family flee?
I have nothing against fleeing and escaping into another country. I just think it should be done legally. I wouldn't want to go to another country without them allowing it. However, if they are allowed to go without any control, it is also ok for me, I just think then the whole idea of borders and governments is useless, we could remove them entirely. And I think it would be good to do so.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
No, we don't have the video that you're suggesting. What we have is hours and hours of footage showing an obvious insurrection. That's why it's been adjudicated that way in courts of law across the country.
In that case, is some convicted for insurrection? Why not?
"...nonetheless had a lot of contact with Russians leading up to Election Day..."
...
Does that sound normal to you? Nothing to see here?
What would you be thinking if say, Joe Biden had done this?
I think there is more evidence for Chinese collusion with Biden than Russian collusion with Trump.


Should Biden be impeached?
I don't see any evidence for this claim anywhere. Where did you get it from?
Also the link you gave shows that the number of deaths were much smaller before the vaccines.
Why is it that every time I put evidence directly in front of your face, you completely ignore it??
Sorry, I just don't think that is evidence for insurrection.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Here is some more video footage from inside the building that you seriously, really need to watch. Plus, you can also watch them smash the doors and windows in and climb through them:
Don't you see a contradiction in that there were Trump supporters peacefully walking after they were let in and then some "glass mashed many hours"?
Other people did die as as result of that day.
Who?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
In that case, is some convicted for insurrection? Why not?
I believe the exact charge that these folks were convicted of was seditious conspiracy. "Generally, sedition is conduct or speech that incites individuals to violently rebel against the authority of the government. Insurrection includes the actual acts of violence and rebellion. " IOW the proud boys etc. were found guilty of inciting an insurrection. There is no doubt an insurrection occurred. There are hours and hours of film footage of the violence.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have nothing against fleeing and escaping into another country. I just think it should be done legally. I wouldn't want to go to another country without them allowing it. However, if they are allowed to go without any control, it is also ok for me, I just think then the whole idea of borders and governments is useless, we could remove them entirely. And I think it would be good to do so.
I don't take any extreme position, plus I believe people are more important than borders.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Does it matter if if the stories in religious scripture actually took place?

What is more important in scripture, historical accuracy or the lessons that can be learned from it?

Discuss.
Myth is what never was but always is. It shows higher truths, so we can learn about human nature. Taking the Bible literally and as inerrant destroys any context and doesn't teach us how to be like Jesus; it teaches people to hate those who don't believe the same way they do.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
In that case, is some convicted for insurrection? Why not?
Yes, some were. There are a variety of different charges, which you'd know about if you'd bother to read the links I provided.

But you don't seem to be interested in the truth. You seem to just want to believe what you want to believe, and you've constructed a wall so that you don't have to take in any evidence that contradicts your a prior belief about this.
I think there is more evidence for Chinese collusion with Biden than Russian collusion with Trump.
Comer hasn't shown a damn thing. Republicans are starting to admit that they (so far) have zero evidence against Biden of any corruption.

But if they do find evidence? Prosecute him. I don't care. I'm interested in the truth, whatever that may be. So far though, not a lick of evidence.

Should Biden be impeached?
For what?
Also the link you gave shows that the number of deaths were much smaller before the vaccines.
What? The link was about deaths related to the January 6th insurrection.
Sorry, I just don't think that is evidence for insurrection.
That's because you've utterly refused to look at any evidence that contradicts what you already believe.
You do not appear to be a person who is interested in getting to the truth of the matter.

You're just flat out denying reality in favour of a fairy tale concocted by a known and admitted liar.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Don't you see a contradiction in that there were Trump supporters peacefully walking after they were let in and then some "glass mashed many hours"?
The one and only piece of footage you keep mentioning about peacefully walking about is a heavily edited piece of footage that comes from Tucker Carlson. As I've pointed out several times now, that's where the problem lies.

There are hours and hours of footage showing exactly what I've described. You have utterly and totally failed to watch it or even address it. Instead you lean on a heavily edited piece of footage from a known liar. Why is that?
I gave you a link with a list of names.

Try actually reading links provided to you. You'll actually learn something that way. You'll have to remove your head from the sand first though.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yes, some were. There are a variety of different charges, which you'd know about if you'd bother to read the links I provided.

But you don't seem to be interested in the truth. You seem to just want to believe what you want to believe, and you've constructed a wall so that you don't have to take in any evidence that contradicts your a prior belief about this.

Comer hasn't shown a damn thing. Republicans are starting to admit that they (so far) have zero evidence against Biden of any corruption.

But if they do find evidence? Prosecute him. I don't care. I'm interested in the truth, whatever that may be. So far though, not a lick of evidence.

For what?

What? The link was about deaths related to the January 6th insurrection.

That's because you've utterly refused to look at any evidence that contradicts what you already believe.
You do not appear to be a person who is interested in getting to the truth of the matter.

You're just flat out denying reality in favour of a fairy tale concocted by a known and admitted liar.
Its a prob for those who think the
Boss whispers Truth unto their itchin' ears
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It doesn’t though. Finland didn’t finish it’s two-dose mass vaccination campaign until around the end of February of 2023 (which covered about 76-79% of the Finnish population).



Meanwhile, what studies actually show:

“This study examined the association of COVID-19 deaths per 1000 cases with a fully vaccinated population. The global median deaths per 1000 cases were 15.68 (IQR 9.84, 25.87) after 6 months of vaccinations and 11.96 (IQR 6.08, 20.63) after 12 months. Across 164 countries, we found significant variations in vaccination levels of populations, booster doses, and mortality, with higher vaccine coverage and lower mortality in high-income countries. Several regression models were performed to test the association between vaccination and COVID-19 mortality. Control variables were used to account for confounding variables. A 10-percentage-point increase in vaccination was associated with an 18.1% decrease in mortality after 6 months (95%CI, 7.4–28.8%) and a 16.8% decrease after 12 months (95%CI, 6.9–26.7%). A 10-percentage-point increase in booster vaccination rates was associated with a 33.1% decrease in COVID-19 mortality (95%CI, 16.0–50.2%). This relationship is present in most analyses by country income groups with variations in the effect size. Efforts are needed to reduce vaccine hesitancy while ensuring suitable infrastructure and supply to enable all countries to increase their vaccination rates.”
Higher COVID-19 Vaccination Rates Are Associated with Lower COVID-19 Mortality: A Global Analysis



"Thus, slow vaccination and booster administration was a major factor contributing to an order of magnitude higher excess mortality in “slower” European countries compared to more rapidly immunized countries.”

Comparison of vaccination and booster rates and their impact on excess mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic in European countries
 

1213

Well-Known Member
It doesn’t though. Finland didn’t finish it’s two-dose mass vaccination campaign until around the end of February of 2023 (which covered about 76-79% of the Finnish population).
...
It tells that the number of covid deaths has risen after people began to use the vaccines. Before vaccines were used, there were less covid deaths. If the vaccine would help in reducing deaths, the number of deaths should decrease. And there is two ways how it should happen, if the vaccine would work as it should:
1) reducing infections of non-vaccinated.
2) reducing severity of the disease on vaccinated.

The information that we have shows the vaccines have not helped in Finland.
 

ChieftheCef

Active Member
Does it matter if if the stories in religious scripture actually took place?

What is more important in scripture, historical accuracy or the lessons that can be learned from it?

Discuss.
Historical accuracy only begins to matter when you literally believe the propaganda spliced with truth is real and really happened. The more important thing, at least I would think, is the morals of what they are trying to convey as I suspect the reports are riddled with splediforic fabrications to teach that we are the best. There's no better best than us.

Partly discussed.
 
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