Historical Accuracy in Scripture

[PureX]

Just for clarity-
you are stating that nobody actually believes
that Genesis is literally true?
No flood, none of it?

Some believe that. But it's not why they read it, nor is it the history that they are believing in. It's the mythological ideal.

 

[Audie]

Some believe that. But it's not why they read it, nor is it the history that they are believing in. It's the mythological ideal.

Some believe that. But it's not why they read it, nor is it the history that they are believing in. It's the mythological ideal.

Start a thread with these unique claims.

I will let the Believers disabuse you of your delusion.

 

[PureX]

Start a thread with these unique claims.

I will let the Believers disabuse you of your delusion.

That both you and they are too willfully ignorant to differentiate between history and mythological idealism is why you and they (and others) argue and debate this nonsense endlessly.

 

[Valjean]

That reminds me of Covid and how world leaders acted against Nuremberg code with forcing people to get vaccinated. Bible tells we should love others as ourselves. Anyone who lives by that, lives without being atrocious.

Please give one example of what is wrong in the Bible, preferably the thing that you think is the worst wrong thing.

I don't see the connection. What does factually incorrect history and clear violations of human rights have to do with covid restrictions?

What do you think the purpose of law is? Are any of them legitimate? Can certain harmful actions not be legitimately outlawed, or are consequences irrelevant to law?

I don't recall vaccination being forced on people, though there were various restrictions in place, to preserve lives and health, which inconvenienced the refuseniks considerably.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/13/1098071284/this-is-how-many-lives-could-have-been-saved-with-covid-vaccinations-in-each-sta

 

[Subduction Zone]

True Christians are educated by Christ (which is why they bear his name), not by the world.

Mark 8:38 For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

Denying the Flood as a real event is denying Jesus in order to side with the world and the false knowledge of it.

Matt. 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

That attitude is very common in Christendom: to negate Jesus and posing as Christians.

Claiming that the Flood was a real event is to call God a liar. You do not understand the use of literary tools. You also do not understand the concept of evidence. Nor are you willing to learn because you have demonstrated a thick barrier of indoctrination. That allows people to refuse to even discuss the ideas that show them to be wrong.

 

[Audie]

That both you and they are too willfully ignorant to differentiate between history and mythological idealism is why you and they (and others) argue and debate this nonsense endlessly.

Utterly false charge against me.
The resemblance is there, though, for
you and the fundys- you both just make
things up, for, yes, a lack of anything real to say.

Theology and philosophy, it's supposed to be.

 

[Windwalker]

No. This is like asking for evidence, so we can sort the truth from the falsehood before we decide what to believe.
This seems a reasonable request.

His question was, "How could "lessons" be learned from some information that is not accurate?" What does evidence have to do with that? My response was to say that even if there are errors in the material you may been looking at, there may be truths in there as well, so why immediately toss everything out and not consider anything if you find a few errors in there as well? That's a highly irrational action.

So I really don't know how what you are saying fits in with that.

No, most atheists don't throw anything out. Most have nothing to discard.

Yeah, bull. I do not define people who don't know anything about beliefs in God as atheists. That's a dumb position to take. It's as obviously self-serving as theists who claim babies are born theists. Babies are not atheists anymore than they are theists. They are simply unaware, or ignorant of the question and have no views for or against either way.

We start with a blank slate, and accept various facts, as evidence for them appears. There are "so many atheists" because we're still waiting for evidence for many of the various religious claims.

And yet they know more than enough about religious claims to say those don't meet the criteria of good evidence for them. They are anything but blank slates.

Best to sort through each claim individually, and consider the evidence, then accept the well evidenced claims, and defer belief in the unevidenced or poorly evidenced ones.

Deferred belief is agnosticism, not atheism. But I know, you'll want to say they mean the same thing. I wholly reject that argument.

That's what reasonable people do, not just "atheists."

Agnosticism is what reasonable people do when they don't have sufficient evidence either way. Choosing a position as for or against is what the persuaded do. Theism and atheism are positions of the persuaded. And that's perfectly fine too.

What's not fine is saying you don't believe something, and then claim you don't have sufficient evidence to decide if you believe or don't believe. That's just contradictory. That's just something else altogether. That's just an expression of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Eli G]

It's laughable how atheists think they can force believers to see the Bible the way they want they to see it!!!
To Jews they want to take away the historicity of the Hebrew Scriptures, and to Christians they want to change the story of Jesus and Christianism.

And it's not that they haven't already led some believers away from their trust in the Bible... but to believe that they can remove God from human consciousness is truly arrogant! You don't have that power no matter all your forums' conspirations (so obvious everywhere) ... or crowd control techniques you want to apply, or propaganda you try to use. You are not in control; God is watching and he laugh at you.

Psal. 2: 3 They say: “Let us tear off their shackles
And throw off their ropes!”
4 The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh;
Jehovah will scoff at them.
5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger
And terrify them in his burning anger,
6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king
On Zion, my holy mountain.”

Don't you see that you cann't deceive everybody?

 

[Audie]

It's laughable how atheists think they can force believers to see the Bible the way they want they to see it!!!
To Jews they want to take away the historicity of the Hebrew Scriptures, and to Christians they want to change the story of Jesus and Christianism.

And it's not that they haven't already led some believers away from their trust in the Bible... but to believe that they can remove God from human consciousness is truly arrogant! You don't have that power no matter all your forums' conspirations (so obvious everywhere) ... or crowd control techniques you want to apply, or propaganda you try to use. You are not in control; God is watching and he laugh at you.

Psal. 2: 3 They say: “Let us tear off their shackles
And throw off their ropes!”
4 The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh;
Jehovah will scoff at them.
5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger
And terrify them in his burning anger,
6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king
On Zion, my holy mountain.”

Don't you see that you cann't deceive everybody?

Now that you mention it, it WAS them
dirty atheists who devised such as
theciron maiden, burning at stake,
" room of little rest", pulling arms and legs
off, etc, to force people to disbelieve the bible.

Good reminder.

 

[Eli G]

Yeah, but they have failed.

You can not make God disappear ... He will make them disappear, but before they will meet Him.

 

[Windwalker]

It's laughable how atheists think they can force believers to see the Bible the way they want they to see it!!!
To Jews they want to take away the historicity of the Hebrew Scriptures, and to Christians they want to change the story of Jesus and Christianism.

Christians change their understanding of the story of Jesus and Christianity all the time. This is normal. Why do you think you have 40,000 plus denominations out there? Besides, that is also a matter of maturing in faith. People change how they believe about God when they mature. Otherwise they'd still be thinking as a child when they are supposed to be adults. That's not a good thing.

And it's not that they haven't already led some believers away from their trust in the Bible...

I've never got this "trust in the Bible" thing, as if the Bible were an equal to God. I can easily recognize the flaws in the Bible, and not see that as diminishing my belief in God one single bit. I consider the Bible as God theology to be a form of idolatry. It's highly misguided.

 

[Eli G]

There are a lot of factors that prove the Bible is the word of God. You just don't want to see them.

But evidently if you don't even believe God exists, what can I show you to prove He got any word at all .

All dialogue with indoctrinated people is useless, and irrational atheists are already indoctrinated.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There are a lot of factors that prove the Bible is the word of God. ]

No, there really is no evidence. It is an article of religious faith.

 

[Eli G]

When the faith is based on true knowledge, it becomes something more than just credulity.

We, JWs, worship what we know.

John 4:23 " (...) the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

 

[Audie]

When the faith is based on true knowledge, it becomes something more than just credulity.

We, JWs, worship what we know.

John 4:23 " (...) the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Chanting the doctrine. Tsk.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When the faith is based on true knowledge, it becomes something more than just credulity.

We, JWs, worship what we know.

John 4:23 " (...) the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Sorry Eli, but the fact that you say this many many times doesn't make it true. JW's have religious faith in things they cannot true, no different than people in any other religion.

 

[Eli G]

Chanting the doctrine. Tsk.

Isn't that what you've been doing all along?

 

[Windwalker]

There are a lot of factors that prove the Bible is the word of God. You just don't want to see them.

Why would you assume I wouldn't want to see them? Do I sound closed-minded to you, just because I disagree with you? Do you believe that those who disagree with you are only doing so because they want to hide from the truth? Isn't that a mighty high opinion of your own points of view, and a rather unfair judgement of all those who don't agree with you? How far do you think that attitude can get you in life?

But evidently if you don't even believe God exists, what can I show you to prove He got any word at all .

I believe in God. But I don't equate a belief in God with the view that Bible is without error. Why do you make faith in the Bible equal to faith in God? Someone doesn't even need the Bible at all in order to have faith that God exists. Or don't you believe that?

All dialogue with indoctrinated people is useless, and irrational atheists are already indoctrinated.

Do you consider yourself not indoctrinated? Where did your beliefs come from then exactly?

 

[Eli G]

Of course, I am indoctrinated in Jesus teachings:

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

1 Tim. 1:3 (...) command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, 4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again (...)

So are you ... but not in Christ's doctrine.

I don't see anything wrong on being "indoctrinated", you do. But "doctrine" is the same as teaching. We are educated in diferent teachings than you are. And evidently our teachings are superior ... because of our fruits as international community ... I am talking about JWs, not about Christendom in general.

Jesus said "wisdom is proved righteous by its works" (Matt. 11:19).

 

[Windwalker]

Of course, I am indoctrinated in Jesus teachings:

Knowing Jesus' teachings, is not the same thing as being indoctrinated in the beliefs of a religious group. The definition of indoctrination is this:
each (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"

So what if anything you are saying, is you have uncritically accepting a teaching about Jesus's teachings. I would agree with that. Do you ever question your church's teachings about the teachings of Jesus? No? Then that is indoctrination, which is accepting them uncritically, never questioning, never thinking on your own, etc. That's not a good thing. That's nothing to boast of.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Has nothing to do with indoctrination.

1 Tim. 1:3 (...) command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, 4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.

Does this to you mean uncritically accept everything that is being taught to you?

Heb. 6:1 Therefore, now that we have moved beyond the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again (...)

yes indeed. In order to move to maturity, you have to think critically, and not just blindly accept what you have been indoctrinated with by your church. To not to so, leaves you a spiritual infant and vulnerable to exploitation and manipulation.

So are you ... but not in Christ's doctrine.

I believe what Jesus teaches. I've critically looked at his teachings, and have rejected the indoctrinations that don't measure up to the truths I hear in them. I'm not indoctrinated. I wouldn't boast that you are, as that's not a badge of honor.

I don't see anything wrong on being "indoctrinated", you are.

You see uncritically just accepting what you are told is a good thing? I don't.

But "doctrine" is the same as teaching. We are educated in diferent teachings than you are. And evidently our teachings are superior ... because of our fruits as international community ... I am talking about JWs, not about Christendom in general.

I would very much disagree your teachings are superior. I find them desperately wanting in many ways.