Holes in the trinity

[moorea944]

You could just as well have said, 'Xianity is wrong'. Because, that's really all you're proving. Xian beliefs were aound before they compiled the texts, and Jesus is deific either in totality, or even for very trinitarian groups, is part of the godhead that is considered monotheistic. So, the beliefs come before the verses, essentially, and in the beliefs, there is a Godhead.
The problem, really, is that you seem to be trying to use the very texts of a religion, to disprove said religion... it doesn't work.

LOL What? I"m using scripture by Paul. He is explaining what the Godhead is. Are you saying Paul is wrong or the bible is wrong? And yes, I do believe "most" christianity IS wrong. Most is man-made beliefs. And actually, it does work. Paul's letters prove it.

 

[Desert Snake]

LOL What? I"m using scripture by Paul. He is explaining what the Godhead is. Are you saying Paul is wrong or the bible is wrong? And yes, I do believe "most" christianity IS wrong. Most is man-made beliefs. And actually, it does work. Paul's letters prove it.

Since you don't have a religion listed, not sure where you're coming from. I'm wondering exactly how much import the NT could have if you don't subscribe to the idea of a trinity? Is there some reason you would use the nT if you don't believe that Jesus is deific?
I don't adhere to the NT at all, /was for a while/, so this is not really that ''important'' to me; my point was, don't you think that people are entitled to define their own religious beliefs? Xianity has always defined itself by these ideas, ie trinity, a divine Jesus, I really don't know how you aim to prove that the scriptures are actually stating something different; or if this is merely your 'opinion', and as such, it doesn't seem very well supported, imo.

 

[moorea944]

Since you don't have a religion listed, not sure where you're coming from. I'm wondering exactly how much import the NT could have if you don't subscribe to the idea of a trinity? Is there some reason you would use the nT if you don't believe that Jesus is deific?
I don't adhere to the NT at all, /was for a while/, so this is not really that ''important'' to me; my point was, don't you think that people are entitled to define their own religious beliefs? Xianity has always defined itself by these ideas, ie trinity, a divine Jesus, I really don't know how you aim to prove that the scriptures are actually stating something different; or if this is merely your 'opinion', and as such, it doesn't seem very well supported, imo.

Actually, I can easily prove it. Trinity wasnt around in the OT or Jesus's time. Trinity is man-made. Just because something is believed in Christianity, doesnt make it correct. Alot of other beliefs were put into it through out the years. The trinity totally degrades our Creator in all parts. If Jesus is God, the atonement goes right out the window. It had to be someone like us to conquer sin in the flesh or sin nature. A God cant be tempted or die. Scripture also tells us that Jesus was a man. He was also the son of David. Also the Son of God. From the tribe of Judah. He was the son of God and the son of man. Not God the Son.

 

[truthofscripture]

Actually, I can easily prove it. Trinity wasnt around in the OT or Jesus's time. Trinity is man-made. Just because something is believed in Christianity, doesnt make it correct. Alot of other beliefs were put into it through out the years. The trinity totally degrades our Creator in all parts. If Jesus is God, the atonement goes right out the window. It had to be someone like us to conquer sin in the flesh or sin nature. A God cant be tempted or die. Scripture also tells us that Jesus was a man. He was also the son of David. Also the Son of God. From the tribe of Judah. He was the son of God and the son of man. Not God the Son.

Correct. Jesis is NOT God. Such a belief is antichrist AND pagan.

 

[Muffled]

Trinity doesn't mean anything in and of itself, since it's not an original term. It means whatever the fleeting mind (individually and socially) attach to it any given time.

I believe Sojourner's assessment to be correct that it refers to the Father, Son and Paraclete. Since it is a collection of three it is a trinity and because it is God it is The Trinity.

 

[Muffled]

I don't understand. Would you please elaborate?

Thank you.

If Protestants used to think of the Pope as the antichrist that does not mean that he is. The poor concept developed by early Protestants can't change the reality of what a Pope is.

 

[Muffled]

The trinity doctrine is not scriptural, in fact the scriptures eliminate any possibility of such. The trinity doctrine is solely a pagan belief, adopted in the early 4th century by a pagan Emperor, and injected into his new state religion, the Roman Church, later called the Roman Catholic church. All other sects adopted it after that. Realize that Galations chapter 5 says all sects are works of the flesh.

I beleve this bit of misinformation has been bandied about repeatedly on this site without anyone ever bothering to provide an iota of evidence since there isn't any.

I believe there is more than one Trinity doctrine but I find the one espoused in the Nicene Creed to be the most representative of scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The revelation of God's will and purpose, through the medium of scripture, took hundreds of years to unfold. The idea that God is not just a transcendent and distant creator, but is a loving Father whose desire it is to enter personally into the human arena, and finally into the heart of every believer, only became truly apparent after Pentecost.
It says in Ephesians, 'There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.'

Living in Old Testament times meant God was only known through nature and through prophets. When Jesus came as the only begotten son of God, he demonstrated sinlessness, firstly under the Law and then as the anointed Christ. His promise was to baptise every believer with the Holy Spirit - with the same Spirit that had descended on him at his baptism by John in the river Jordan.

For Christians, the trinity is not some grand intellectual or theological puzzle. It's a reality of faith. It's the knowledge that God has sent his Holy Spirit, through Christ, to dwell within you.

 

[truthofscripture]

The revelation of God's will and purpose, through the medium of scripture, took hundreds of years to unfold. The idea that God is not just a transcendent and distant creator, but is a loving Father whose desire it is to enter personally into the human arena, and finally into the heart of every believer, only became truly apparent after Pentecost.
It says in Ephesians, 'There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.'

Living in Old Testament times meant God was only known through nature and through prophets. When Jesus came as the only begotten son of God, he demonstrated sinlessness, firstly under the Law and then as the anointed Christ. His promise was to baptise every believer with the Holy Spirit - with the same Spirit that had descended on him at his baptism by John in the river Jordan.

For Christians, the trinity is not some grand intellectual or theological puzzle. It's a reality of faith. It's the knowledge that God has sent his Holy Spirit, through Christ, to dwell within you.

The scriptures do not teach a trinity. It is a pagan belief only.

 

[sojourner]

What is the Godhead anyhow? Most people say it's God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I dont see that at all. So how can we know what the Godhead is? Well, it's simple, we find it in 1 Cor 11 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." And that is the Godhead. But people dont want to believe in that, because it doesnt put Jesus co-equal with our Creator. God is over Jesus. Now and always.

Except in Philippians 2, where Paul gives Jesus the same name as God. The Greek word translated as "Lord" is the same Greek term used in the LXX to denote God. So, Paul does have some concept of the Father and the Son being coequal.

 

[sojourner]

The scriptures do not teach a trinity. It is a pagan belief only.

I beg to differ. You choose to not see a trinity in them.

 

[sojourner]

The trinity doctrine is not scriptural, in fact the scriptures eliminate any possibility of such. The trinity doctrine is solely a pagan belief, adopted in the early 4th century by a pagan Emperor, and injected into his new state religion, the Roman Church, later called the Roman Catholic church. All other sects adopted it after that. Realize that Galations chapter 5 says all sects are works of the flesh.

The doctrine, itself, isn't explicitly scriptural, but, like all doctrine, it is scripturally-grounded. It cannot be solely Pagan," because Paul isn't a Pagan, and Paul uses such language in his letters. Additionally, it was the bishops -- not Constantine -- who developed the Trinitarian formula in the Nicene Creed in 325, specifically to combat heretical teachings about the nature of Jesus. All Constantine did was to direct them to come to some consensus. The fact that he ratified Xy as legal didn't magically change any of the church's beliefs.

 

[sojourner]

But what was decided to be canon was decided in the 300s.

Not entirely. The process began long before that, and the bible, as we have it, didn't appear until about the year 450.

The catholic church did not decide to go by Bible only at that time, but there was good reason to.

Right. And that reason was because the Tradition had never done that. The bible was part of the Tradition -- not the progenitor of the Tradition.

I don't say that we shouldn't follow good commentaries, which are based on the Bible and give great examples on how to apply the scriptures. But once they contradict the Bible, they've gone too far.

I'm unaware of any critical, scholastic commentaries that contradict the bible. That's because they're commentaries on ... the bible.

When people use non-Biblical phrases, they often take on a life of their own and create concepts contradictory to scripture,

Language develops and changes -- even within the bible, itself. There really is no such thing as "bible language," unless, of course, one is speaking Hebrew and Greek. There aren't always good equivalents in English or other languages.

The first century church devoted themselves to the apostles teachings Acts 2:42. This is what we do through their writings.

The first century church largely didn't have writings -- or a NT. What they had was the LXX -- if even that on a large scale.

 

[sojourner]

These are tricky waters to navigate and cannot be nailed down with a great degree of certainty.

Nothing in the realm of Xy can be...

When Jesus was telling the people to give to Caesar's what is Caesar's and to God what is God's, I get the impression he was almost putting down the measly taxes Caesar would get, in comparison to what we owe God. But I cannot confirm he meant it that way. I can only call it a guess. Many false doctrines are created because people state their guesses as facts.

First of all, we need to figure out why the gospel writer -- who never knew Jesus, and was writing on heresy (at best) at least 40 years after the fact -- had Jesus say that particular thing, and what the writer was trying to get across. Even the best biblical scholars can only guess. One fact that leads to false doctrine, is that there is anything as clear cut as orthodoxy. Theology, doctrine, and interpretations shift all the time.

 

[sojourner]

Actually, I can easily prove it. Trinity wasnt around in the OT or Jesus's time.

That's because for Paul, Jesus became the Son of God when he was resurrected. Which, technically, was "after his time."

Trinity is man-made.

All doctrine -- as well as the bible -- is "man-made."

Just because something is believed in Christianity, doesnt make it correct.

Unfortunately for you, it is the church authorities who determine what is correct.

The trinity totally degrades our Creator in all parts.

No it doesn't.

If Jesus is God, the atonement goes right out the window.

Atonement isn't a real good interpretation of the biblical concept of salvation.

It had to be someone like us to conquer sin in the flesh or sin nature.

Jesus was fully human.

A God cant be tempted or die.

Jesus was fully human.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus was a man.

Jesus was fully human.

He was the son of God and the son of man. Not God the Son.

He was, as Paul asserted, also fully God.

 

[sojourner]

Correct. Jesis is NOT God. Such a belief is antichrist AND pagan.

Paul and the church disagree with you.

 

[Redemptionsong]

truthofscripture, answer me honestly.
Do you believe that the God of the Bible is worthy of worship?
Do you also believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship?
And do you believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide believers into 'ALL TRUTH'?

 

[truthofscripture]

truthofscripture, answer me honestly.
Do you believe that the God of the Bible is worthy of worship?
Do you also believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship?
And do you believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide believers into 'ALL TRUTH'?

I believe what the scriptures teach us, that yes, we MUST worship Jehovah God, and to worship Jesus is contrary to what the scriptures tell us. It say that it is to Jehovah God alone you must provide sacred service. Holy spirit is Jehovah's active force, through which he creates, performs miracles, annoints, resurrects. Anything else is what religions teach, not what God teaches. If God didn't teach it in the scriptures, and it comes only from a religion, it is false.

 

[sojourner]

to worship Jesus is contrary to what the scriptures tell us. It say that it is to Jehovah God alone you must provide sacred service.

Yet, the bible says that everyone shall pay homage to Jesus and confess that he is Lord (same term as that used in the LXX for YHWH). So your statement is false.

 

[truthofscripture]

truthofscripture, answer me honestly.
Do you believe that the God of the Bible is worthy of worship?
Do you also believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship?
And do you believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide believers into 'ALL TRUTH'?

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.