Holes in the trinity

[sojourner]

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

Since Jesus is God, I don't see that that text clashes with Trinitarianism.

 

[.kaleb]

Except in Philippians 2, where Paul gives Jesus the same name as God. The Greek word translated as "Lord" is the same Greek term used in the LXX to denote God. So, Paul does have some concept of the Father and the Son being coequal.

Can you pinpoint exactly what verse you are referring to? Vs 9-11 of Philippians 2?

 

[sojourner]

Can you pinpoint exactly what verse you are referring to? Vs 9-11 of Philippians 2?

Specifically vs. 11.

 

[truthofscripture]

Can you pinpoint exactly what verse you are referring to? Vs 9-11 of Philippians 2?

Are you asking me?

 

[.kaleb]

Specifically vs. 11.

Ok vs 11. Let's have a look.
King James Version Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What point is it you are trying to make with this verse, as lord is just a title not a name?

 

[sojourner]

Ok vs 11. Let's have a look.
King James Version Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What point is it you are trying to make with this verse, as lord is just a title not a name?

The point is that the name YHVH has historically been replaced with LORD, so as to prevent it from being pronounced. The LXX has substituted the Greek term translated as "Lord" for YHVH. It's interesting to note that in Phil. 2:11, Paul uses the same Greek term found in the LXX. What this tells us is that Paul had some concept of Jesus as God. The significance is that the "title" supplants the "name," and so becomes synonymous with it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

truthofscripture, in Isaiah 43:11 it says,'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.'
Am I to conclude that you not only don't believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship, but that he is not a saviour either?

Jesus says in Matthew 4:10 that you must worship God. Correct. Do you not see God in Jesus Christ? Again, this is YOUR faith that is under scrutiny here, just as it was with Thomas.
And tell me, does a Holy Spirit that is a FORCE guide people into all truth? John 16:13, 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.'

A force does not guide, or hear, or speak, or show you things to come! You are being duped by an organisation that reads the New Testament but lives under the law of the Old.

 

[truthofscripture]

truthofscripture, in Isaiah 43:11 it says,'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.'
Am I to conclude that you not only don't believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship, but that he is not a saviour either?

Jesus says in Matthew 4:10 that you must worship God. Correct. Do you not see God in Jesus Christ? Again, this is YOUR faith that is under scrutiny here, just as it was with Thomas.
And tell me, does a Holy Spirit that is a FORCE guide people into all truth? John 16:13, 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.'

A force does not guide, or hear, or speak, or show you things to come! You are being duped by an organisation that reads the New Testament but lives under the law of the Old.

More accurate quotations of the same scriptures:

John 16:. 13 However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come

Changes the whole meaning, doesn't it? Holy spirit is God's active force, and can do nothing unless it is used by God, His SON Jesus, and before the knowledge was stopped, those who were annointed and filled with the same holy spirit. It is inanimate. Just like electricity, wind, water and such. There IS NO TRINITY unless one is pagan, since it is and always has been a pagan tradition to worship triads or trinities of false gods. God is one God Jehovah with no beginning and no end, Jesus is His son, His only begotten son (being begotten means he had a beginning) and God is superior to Jesus who was created by God his father. Holy spirit is God's active force. Constantine melded the pagan belief and took elements of Christian writings and came up with the Roman Church (70 years later the Roman Catholic Church). Constantine was called "Pontificus Maximus" as head of all pagan religions, and to this day, all popes have the same title "Pontificus Maximus", and they wear a fish head hat. They use idols and worship aids, even though God sternly forbids such things. They say to pray to this "saint" and that "Saint" and to Mary, and to Jesus, even though God said to pray only to Him. Jesus said the same thing, offer sacred service ONLY TO GOD THE FATHER. Jesus and God both said that all sects of Christianity are false religion, and revelation to John says that they will all be destroyed with their participants in the final battle. But you continue in your false religion with it's false beliefs, and just moments before Jesus destroys you, he will let you know that Jehovah is his father, then you will be gone forever. The choice is, of course, yours. Choose religion, or choose the scriptures. Cannot choose both. You can only drink from one cup.

 

[Redemptionsong]

truthofscripture, it's you that's having to twist scripture to fit it to your erroneous teaching. Can you not see that God's plan of redemption involved entering into human affairs to save the lost? According to your understanding, mankind remain estranged from God. I don't follow religion, pagan or otherwise, because as a born-again believer l am brought into a new relationship with God in Christ.
Your understanding of scripture keeps you in the dark and forces you to seek salvation through works. How is that different from any other religion, pagan or non-pagan?

 

[truthofscripture]

truthofscripture, it's you that's having to twist scripture to fit it to your erroneous teaching. Can you not see that God's plan of redemption involved entering into human affairs to save the lost? According to your understanding, mankind remain estranged from God. I don't follow religion, pagan or otherwise, because as a born-again believer l am brought into a new relationship with God in Christ.
Your understanding of scripture keeps you in the dark and forces you to seek salvation through works. How is that different from any other religion, pagan or non-pagan?

Never in my life have I "twisted" scripture, or anything else. Your baseless claim is an affront, and I don't appreciate it. I teach only what is in the scriptures, and there is nothing erroneous in the scriptures. Your claim that God Himself is erroneous I am sure isn't pleasing to Him. Your claim of not following religion is funny as in the same sentence you say you are "born again" and that is a teaching of religion. You misunderstand what Jesus meant by saying to be born again. You aren't of the annointed so it wasn't addressed to you. You shouldn't twist the meaning of God's word to fit your religion's version of things. You shouldn't interpret scripture either. The bible itself says to never interpret any word of it. You must have missed that one.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I agree that there is nothing erroneous in the word of God, but that does not mean that you, or I, are not capable of misunderstanding.

I believe you have misunderstood John 16:13. Look at the passage in context and you will see that Jesus is talking about the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. In John 16:7 he makes this plain. Nowhere in the whole passage is there reference to Jesus sending a FORCE. The Comforter is described as the 'Spirit of truth' (v.13). How can a force 'glorify' Jesus?

You say you believe in one God, but by claiming that God sends a spirit that is not of himself you DIVIDE God. If the spirit he sends is not his own, it cannot be the spirit of truth.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It's also rather odd that you should desribe being 'born again' as a teaching of religion. In John 3:7 Jesus says to Nicodemus, 'Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.'

Have I misread this passage, and is it another 'baseless claim'?

 

[sojourner]

Never in my life have I "twisted" scripture, or anything else.

Yes -- you're twisting it to fit your context -- not the context in which it was written.

 

[truthofscripture]

I agree that there is nothing erroneous in the word of God, but that does not mean that you, or I, are not capable of misunderstanding.

I believe you have misunderstood John 16:13. Look at the passage in context and you will see that Jesus is talking about the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. In John 16:7 he makes this plain. Nowhere in the whole passage is there reference to Jesus sending a FORCE. The Comforter is described as the 'Spirit of truth' (v.13). How can a force 'glorify' Jesus?

You say you believe in one God, but by claiming that God sends a spirit that is not of himself you DIVIDE God. If the spirit he sends is not his own, it cannot be the spirit of truth.

 

[truthofscripture]

I agree that there is nothing erroneous in the word of God, but that does not mean that you, or I, are not capable of misunderstanding.

I believe you have misunderstood John 16:13. Look at the passage in context and you will see that Jesus is talking about the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. In John 16:7 he makes this plain. Nowhere in the whole passage is there reference to Jesus sending a FORCE. The Comforter is described as the 'Spirit of truth' (v.13). How can a force 'glorify' Jesus?

You say you believe in one God, but by claiming that God sends a spirit that is not of himself you DIVIDE God. If the spirit he sends is not his own, it cannot be the spirit of truth.

Using comforter is a figure of speech, a type of personification. Death is personified, grave is personified, wind is personified and many other things. That by no means tells us that death is a person, or wind, the grave or wind either. I've not misunderstood it. Holy spirit is nothing more than the force that Jehovah God uses to make things happen, create, teach, strengthen, etc. It is not a person. One must be careful about saying holy spirit is part of a trinity, as God will forgive including Him or His son Jesus, but to greive the holy spirit, He said, is an unforgiveable sin. Since the trinity is a pagan concept and tradition, one must never believe in or teach that God or His son or holy spirit is part of a trinity, as anything pagan is "unclean" and God has a big problem with ANYTHING pagan.

 

[truthofscripture]

It's also rather odd that you should desribe being 'born again' as a teaching of religion. In John 3:7 Jesus says to Nicodemus, 'Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.'

Have I misread this passage, and is it another 'baseless claim'?

When Jesus said one must be born again, it is figurative, meaning to symbolically wash away your old personality, and be "reborn" with the new Christian personality, which is imitating Jesus and his Father. It is doing God's will 24/7. It is eliminating all false worship, all idols and icons, and being no part of the world, including politically and militarily. One must not engage in the desires of the world, because the world is ruled by Satan. To engage in the desires of the world is to oppose Jehovah God. Realize that God said that the only prayers He will ever listen to are those made by ones who do His will always and in all things. That means not speeding, buying lottery tickets, voting, learning war, engaging in false religion, engaging in non scriptural sex, and a thousand other things.

 

[sojourner]

When Jesus said one must be born again, it is figurative, meaning to symbolically wash away your old personality, and be "reborn" with the new Christian personality, which is imitating Jesus and his Father. It is doing God's will 24/7. It is eliminating all false worship, all idols and icons, and being no part of the world, including politically and militarily. One must not engage in the desires of the world, because the world is ruled by Satan. To engage in the desires of the world is to oppose Jehovah God. Realize that God said that the only prayers He will ever listen to are those made by ones who do His will always and in all things. That means not speeding, buying lottery tickets, voting, learning war, engaging in false religion, engaging in non scriptural sex, and a thousand other things.

That's not what it means. The true faith is never legalistic as you're presenting it here.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Exactly, sojourner. This legalism is Old covenant. And that's not to say that the law of God is bad, but simply that the way of love is better. Love allows you the freedom to make mistakes and be forgiven.

 

[Redemptionsong]

truthofscripture, even the language you use suggests that God is far away. Where is the reality of Christ? If the Holy Spirit is purely figurative, and being born again is only symbolic, why have a New Testament at all?

 

[truthofscripture]

truthofscripture, even the language you use suggests that God is far away. Where is the reality of Christ? If the Holy Spirit is purely figurative, and being born again is only symbolic, why have a New Testament at all?

It is for the sanctification of Jehovah God's name, and for the coming Kingdom government of the Earth after the final battle. It is to prepare mankind and separate the sheep from the goats. God is close to those who do His will 24/7. Not so much to those who stick to sects of Christianity and all the other false religions. Not so much to those who love the world. John 2:15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.
THE Bible says of Jehovah God: “O Hearer of prayer, even to you people of all flesh will come.” (Psalm 65:2 [64:3, Dy]) Yes, God does hear prayers. And persons in all the earth who love the truth, who long to do his will, and who approach him in the way he approves, can enjoy this precious privilege. (Acts 10:34, 35) Really, what a marvelous privilege it is to be able to talk to the glorious Ruler of all the universe and know that he hears you!—Psalm 8:1, 3, 4 [8:2, 4, 5, Dy]; Isaiah 45:22.
Encouragingly, his written Word promises: “Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let your petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 4:6, 7) However, some may personally feel uncertain about the matter of prayer because many of their prayers seem to have gone unanswered. Why is this? It is important for us to know. In his Word, God makes clear what his will is regarding prayer.
The Bible tells us that “he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) Notice that this scripture says we are to ‘approach God.’ As the true and living God, Jehovah wants us to pray to him, not to someone else. Prayer is part of our worship and for this reason should be directed only to the Creator, Jehovah. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray to his “Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 6:9) Jesus did not teach them to pray to himself, nor to his human mother Mary, nor to any other person. Jehovah is all-powerful, all-wise, perfect in justice and in love. So, why should we go to any lesser person? Further, the inspired apostle Paul assures us that God “is not far off from each one of us,” if we seek him in the right way.—Acts 17:27.
SO, as you can see from this that God isn't distant. He is a loving God who wants us to be close to Him, but there are requirements we must fulfill before He will draw close to us, and He won't listen to prayers offered unrighteously. I know these things differ from what the religions of the world teach, because they all stem from pagandom in small or large ways. Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, SDA, LDS, religions not recognizing God the Almighty, and atheistic religions all teach things different from what God teaches through His written word, and they all teach things differing from eachother. That being said, how can they all be correct, or how can even one be correct? How can we get close to God with faulty information?