Holes in the trinity

[sojourner]

That's fine, but I think for myself.

I think you need to find some consensus of thought with recognized, peer-reviewed scholars.

The evidence is exactly the same for you and I sojourner, all that seems to differ is the conclusions of the evidence.

What differs is the way we each go about arriving at those conclusions.

I'm not sure what you are getting at sojourner.

What I'm getting at is, for Paul, the Son and the Father are the same God. You seem to want to address what Paul thinks by quoting John?? WTH?

What viewpoint of Paul's do YOU think I am ignoring?

That the Father and the Son are the same God.

perhaps it would be best to let Paul do the speaking for me...
1 Corinthians 8:5,6 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

What more can I say?

Besides the fact that Paul is addressing the eating of sacred meat and not giving us a christological treatise, notice the doublet he uses. The actions by which the Father and the Son are known are the same. There is one God.

As the very first thing created by Jehovah, Jesus would have to be like God. What most trinitarians fail to realize, IMO, is that Jesus was created.

That's not what the bible says.

Does it mean that Jesus is Gods only BEGOTTEN son?

Yes.

is Jesus Jehovah, or are they 2 separate beings?

The question is disingenuous. "Jehovah" beclouds who is being discussed and how that subject is viewed. Since "Jehovah" is a bastardization of YHVH and Adonai (which, BTW, are two different concepts), and since YHVH is conceptualized differently than the NT "God," I can only answer the question by saying that the Father and the Son are one God.
They are not "2 separate beings." They have one Being.

is Jesus equal to Jehovah?

Depends on if you're talking about Jesus antecedent to or subsequent to the resurrection. Pre- resurrection, not equal. Post- resurrection, equal.

 

[moorea944]

Look, I didn't write the bible. I'm not the one who called Jesus by the same name as God. I'm not the one who conceptualizes resurrection with divine status. I'm not the one who said that the word was God and that the word became flesh. I've been trained to read the bible by setting aside my own preferences, to read deeply, to to the exegetical and critical homework. There are two real good reasons why the doctrine of the Trinity was adopted: 1) the church, from very early on, had thought of Jesus as divine, and 2) his divinity is heavily implied in the texts.

I'm not saying that "everyone else is wrong." I didn't start this dog-and-pony show. Somebody else insisted that trinitarians are wrong, and I responded with solid exegetical reasons why they are not wrong. But you have to understand that the processes of theology, ecclesiology, christology, and soteriology all stem from this basic understanding of Jesus as, somehow, divine and one God. these are processes that are grounded in that understanding, and ones that have developed along a tangent toward that understanding. That understanding is no more "false" than anything else, because it's grounded in the earliest understanding of the first Anointed-believers. In fact, it is (to use a bad term) more orthodox than any other understanding. What I'm saying is that calling the trinity "wrong," is... wrong. You can certainly believe what you wish. But where you end up either twisting history or the texts, or torturing theological constructions in order to maintain your belief, and then calling other beliefs "wrong," I'm going to step in and defend the orthodoxy of the church.

The history is what it is. The texts say what they say. The church believes what it believes. The history supports the church's beliefs in Jesus as divine. It also supports that the earliest texts see Jesus as divine. And those texts do imply such. It just is what it is.

So the problem isn't with my reading the bible through some mistaken lens. The problem is with you insisting that the lens is mistaken.

You do know that "God" in Hebrew is written a few ways, right? It could be, EL, ELOAH, or Elohim. Can you tell me what verses you are having trouble with?......

 

[moorea944]

Actually, Sojourner is correct. Or mostly correct. Jesus is definitely G-d, part of the Godhead; even if we take your side, Jesus is still the 'son of god', so some sort of Deity. We don't have to be Xians, but I believe in recognizing Xianity for what it actually is.

Actually, he is not correct at all. Jesus is not definitely God. What is the Godhead for you? I read the Godhead in 1 Cor 11 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." That, my friend, IS the Godhead. No trinity there..... Like I said before, trinity is man made doctrines.

 

[sojourner]

Can you tell me what verses you are having trouble with?......

I'm not having trouble with any OT verse.

You do know that "God" in Hebrew is written a few ways, right?

I was referring the the Greek term in the LXX that is rendered as "Lord" whenever YHVH is encountered (this would be the case in any of the yahwist texts).

 

[sojourner]

Jesus is not definitely God.

The bible disagrees with you.

 

[.kaleb]

Sojourner,
You are obviously devout, and I have no intention of telling you what you should think. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, as I try not to assume I know what people are thinking. So again, I'm going to quote a few scriptures, could you give your explanation of each scripture?

•(King James Version)1 Corrinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
-If Christ is God, why does he have a head over him? Please explain.

•(King James Version) Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
-Jesus has a God and father, how then is he God almighty? Please explain

•(King James Version) John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
-How can the one sent be equal to the one that sends? If Jesus is God, how is it he is doing his fathers will and not his own? Please explain

•(Byington) Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, ‘Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation:
-Who is the amen, the faithful and true witness? Who is the beginning of Gods creation? Please explain

 

[.kaleb]

I'm probably in a different time zone to you guys, so I'll throw in a little titbit while I have the time.

Titus 3:3-7; 'For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'

So who is our Saviour?

Again I'll let the scriptures do the talking, and then give some of my conclusions.
Throughout history, Jehovah has used judges, kings, & mighty warriors as saviours, as well as personally being a saviour. (American Standard Version)Isaiah 43:3 For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour; I have given Egypt as thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in thy stead.

But you have specifically asked, who is OUR saviour?
What does the bible teach?
(King James Version) 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Yet at 1Timothy 1:1 (King James Version) it says: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ,which is our hope;

At Jude 25 (American Standard Version) to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, beglory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen.

And speaking of our future salvation, Revelation 7:9,10 (King James Version) says: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

A saviour is one who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials, as we can read at (King James Version) Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared....

So to answer your question, Jehovah is my saviour. Also Christ is my salvation. Jesus is as we discussed earlier, Jehovah's arm, his means for salvation.
Acts 5:31 sums it up in this way: God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Redemptionsong]

.kaleb, I'II answer you plainly, giving my understanding of scripture, supported by experience.

Did Jesus have a pre-human existence? No. Jesus is the name given by Mary to her baby. Mary gave this name in obedience to the command to do so; "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'' (Matthew 1:21) Jesus is also called Emmanuel, meaning God with us. I understand this to mean that the baby was miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit, not inheriting the sins of a human father. I also believe it's a title that looks forward to the time that God sends his Spirit ie baptism.

From the point that Jesus is born, he is under law. He is a sinless human being living righteously under the law of God. He lives in this manner until his baptism, when his status changes. This means that a significant change is about to take place in relationship. For his God is about to become his Father. Jesus is already the son of God in body/soul, but now Jesus becomes the son of God in body/soul and spirit. The Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ, the spirit of true sonship, enters Jesus and leads him in accordance with the will of his Father.

Throughout his ministry, Jesus is 'one with the Father' in SPIRIT. God is truly in Jesus, demonstrating his will and power to the world. It's a time when people are being challenged to work out for themselves just who he is. Some think he is a fraud, others a prophet, others the Christ. The gradual revelation that he is the Christ strikes his disciples first, and doesn't receive public acknowledgement until it is written in three languages above his head at crucifixion.

What happened next made the waverers appreciate that God had been present IN JESUS CHRIST since his baptism. Waverers, like Thomas, saw for themselves that the body and soul of Jesus had been raised from the grave by the power of God. This power of resurrection is the spirit that left Jesus at crucifixion, and after three days and nights returned to raise Jesus from the dead.

Following resurrection, Jesus' body undergoes change, from corruption to incorruption. He then ascends to heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father. From here, the Father, and the Son, send the Holy Spirit to form the body of Christ on Earth.

In what sense, therefore, does Christ have pre-existence? Christ is the Word of God. The Word exists as potential until spoken, and then becomes the force of creation. Christ is the Word of God, and entered Jesus at his baptism.

The Father, the Word or Son (raised), and the Holy Spirit are ONE - GOD.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner,
You are obviously devout, and I have no intention of telling you what you should think. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, as I try not to assume I know what people are thinking. So again, I'm going to quote a few scriptures, could you give your explanation of each scripture?

•(King James Version)1 Corrinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
-If Christ is God, why does he have a head over him? Please explain.

•(King James Version) Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
-Jesus has a God and father, how then is he God almighty? Please explain

•(King James Version) John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
-How can the one sent be equal to the one that sends? If Jesus is God, how is it he is doing his fathers will and not his own? Please explain

•(Byington) Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, ‘Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation:
-Who is the amen, the faithful and true witness? Who is the beginning of Gods creation? Please explain

With regard to the first three: Jesus has a dual nature. Jesus is both fully God and fully human (human beings have a God, do we not?).
With regard to the last: A better translation is "origin," rather than "beginning."

 

[moorea944]

I'm not having trouble with any OT verse.

I was referring the the Greek term in the LXX that is rendered as "Lord" whenever YHVH is encountered (this would be the case in any of the yahwist texts).

Can you give me some verses?

 

[moorea944]

The bible disagrees with you.

Actually it doesnt. Never does the bible tell us that Jesus it God and I can prove that.

 

[Redemptionsong]

.kaleb, it seems to me that you are being blinded by appearance. The flesh of Jesus Christ is no more than a covering. It's the temple in which the Holy Spirit (God immanently) dwelt.

When I read what Jesus Christ said and did, I see the work of God. Jesus, as body and soul, did have a human personality, born of experience, but it was brought into complete submission under the will of God. Jesus walked by the spirit of God, a spirit that was both immanent and transcendent.

Now, let's look at Hebrews 5:7-9:

Who in the days of his flesh, [specifically from the baptism to resurrection]
when he [Jesus - body/soul] had offered up prayers and supplications [as in Gethsemane]
with strong crying and tears unto him [God - immanent and transcendent] that was able to save him [Jesus - body/soul]
from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Though he were a Son [Flesh and Spirit], yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect [in resurrection],
he became the author of eternal salvation [the baptism of Jesus Christ] unto all them that obey him;

.kaleb, by refusing to accept that God was in Jesus, reconciling the world to himself, you are also denying the possibility of receiving that same spirit in baptism YOURSELF.

'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.' (Ephesians 2:8)

 

[sojourner]

Can you give me some verses?

I've just told you. But you're going to have to use a version of the bible that's based on the LXX, because it's the Greek we're concerned with here.

 

[sojourner]

Actually it doesnt. Never does the bible tell us that Jesus it God and I can prove that.

Fine. Ignore the cultural and socio-historical evidence. Ignore the textual evidence. Ignore the linguistic markers.

 

[sojourner]

The flesh of Jesus Christ is no more than a covering. It's the temple in which the Holy Spirit (God immanently) dwelt.

Hmm. I'm not sure that's congruent with what the biblical writers believed -- especially Paul.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Isaiah 43:11, 'I ,even I, am the LORD (Yahweh); and beside me there is no saviour.'

Hosea 13:4, 'Yet I am the LORD (Yahweh) thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

These references are to JEHOVAH.

Now look at 1 John 1:13,14. 'Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.'

THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOUR. No amount of wriggling and squirming can take away from this truth. It follows logically that for Jesus Christ to be Saviour of the world, the SPIRIT of JEHOVAH must have been in him!!

As it says in 2 Corinthians 5:19, 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sojourner, I may well have been a bit hasty in describing the flesh of Jesus as 'a covering' and corruptible. Prior to crucifixion, his flesh may have been like that of Adam before the fall. In other words, Jesus may not have gone on to die a natural death although he was born a human being.

From the words of Jonah, 2:6, we can assume that Jesus was also able to say, 'yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.' But this was the corruption of death itself. I don't think that there's any doubt that Jesus died (although most Muslims think otherwise).

 

[Redemptionsong]

There is another point about which I admit some discomfort. At age 12, Jesus was in the Temple, and when discovered by his parents he said, 'How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? (Luke 2:49) He is here using the relationship of son to father, suggesting that the spirit of sonship be present. Even without baptism in the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God may have been upon him and as it was with the prophets.

 

[moorea944]

Fine. Ignore the cultural and socio-historical evidence. Ignore the textual evidence. Ignore the linguistic markers.

Do you think maybe your just reading it wrong because you just believe in something different?

 

[.kaleb]

.kaleb, I'II answer you plainly, giving my understanding of scripture, supported by experience.

I'll read with interest

Did Jesus have a pre-human existence? No.

perhaps you can reconcile this statement with what Jesus himself says:
(King James Version) John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
- Jesus came down from heaven, so how is it you say he had no pre-human existence?
(King James Version)John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
-Again, out of Jesus own mouth, does he not explain his origin?
(NWT) John 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.
- what is Jesus here saying?
(Byington) John 16:28 I came out of the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father’s presence.”
- if you still maintain Jesus had NO pre-human existence, then you'll have to show me some scriptures I've never come across!

Jesus is the name given by Mary to her baby. Mary gave this name in obedience to the command to do so; "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'' (Matthew 1:21) Jesus is also called Emmanuel, meaning God with us. I understand this to mean that the baby was miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit, not inheriting the sins of a human father. I also believe it's a title that looks forward to the time that God sends his Spirit ie baptism.

as for Jesus name, which means Jehovah is salvation, this was the name Joseph in a dream was instructed to call the child. (King James Version) Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

From the point that Jesus is born, he is under law. He is a sinless human being living righteously under the law of God. He lives in this manner until his baptism, when his status changes. This means that a significant change is about to take place in relationship. For his God is about to become his Father. Jesus is already the son of God in body/soul, but now Jesus becomes the son of God in body/soul and spirit. The Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ, the spirit of true sonship, enters Jesus and leads him in accordance with the will of his Father.

by in large I agree. However Jesus already knew of his relationship with his Heavenly Father. When visiting the temple in Jerusalem as a 12 yo, Jesus stayed behind whilst his family returned home. Upon realising Jesus was not with them, they frantically searched for him. After 3 days searching they found Jesus in the temple and explained the mental anguish he had caused them. Jesus replied: (American Standard Version) Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father’s house?

Throughout his ministry, Jesus is 'one with the Father' in SPIRIT. God is truly in Jesus, demonstrating his will and power to the world. It's a time when people are being challenged to work out for themselves just who he is. Some think he is a fraud, others a prophet, others the Christ. The gradual revelation that he is the Christ strikes his disciples first, and doesn't receive public acknowledgement until it is written in three languages above his head at crucifixion.

God is TRUELY in Jesus... Now I would agree that Gods spirit was in Jesus, but if God himself was in Jesus, how could he say: (King James Version) John1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

What happened next made the waverers appreciate that God had been present IN JESUS CHRIST since his baptism. Waverers, like Thomas, saw for themselves that the body and soul of Jesus had been raised from the grave by the power of God. This power of resurrection is the spirit that left Jesus at crucifixion, and after three days and nights returned to raise Jesus from the dead.

Here is where I think the confusion lies. Power of God had been present in Jesus, as it was in Paul when he became full of spirit and caused temporary blindness to happen to bar-Jesus, a sorcerer on the island of Cyprus. But does this mean that God himself was in Jesus or Paul?

Following resurrection, Jesus' body undergoes change, from corruption to incorruption. He then ascends to heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father. From here, the Father, and the Son, send the Holy Spirit to form the body of Christ on Earth.

what do you mean by "send Holy Spirit to form the body of Christ?"

In what sense, therefore, does Christ have pre-existence? Christ is the Word of God. The Word exists as potential until spoken, and then becomes the force of creation. Christ is the Word of God, and entered Jesus at his baptism.

can you see tho how what you have said here seems to contradict what you said earlier, as well as what Jesus himself says?
How do you reconcile... (Byington) John 5:19 So Jesus replied “Verily, verily I tell you, the Son cannot do anything from himself unless he sees the Father do a thing; for what he does, that the Son likewise does.
- yet no man ever saw God. So unless Jesus had a pre-human existence in heaven as a spirit creature, how could he make this statement?

The Father, the Word or Son (raised), and the Holy Spirit are ONE - GOD.

that may be the conclusion you reach, however, I certainly see no scriptual evidence, that would be able to reconcile that conclusion, with the overwhelming evidence that Jesus himself said about his nature.

Paul himself explains the relationship between the resurrected Jesus, and Jehovah. (Byington) Hebrews 1:9 You loved rectitude and hated wickedness; for this reason God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your fellows,”... I don't see how it can get any more conclusive. How can Jesus be almighty God when he has a God over him?

I know these type of discussions can turn combative, and I really don't want that. I'm not asking you questions, and replying to your posts to be antagonistic. I genuinely want to know the why people believe what they do. How else does one learn.