Holy book woes

[Muslim-UK]

I believe Hadiths are not the word of God.

Correct they are what people recorded as being said or actions done by the Prophet pbuh. They are fallible and only considered when the person narrating them was of impeccable character, or their are multiple chains from different people all saying the same, or very similar things. For a Muslim, they are like the Gospels found in the NT, the sayings and actions of Jesus pbuh.

 

[Valjean]

They need the OT for background information and so they can twist the Hebrew text to justify worship of Jesus pbuh. They use the OT and proclaim there are over 300 Prophecies attributed to the coming of Jesus pbuh and his life. One example is, a Young woman who gave birth, becomes a virgin who will give birth in the future.

OK, I can see some sense in that, but it seems to me the supportive passages are greatly overshadowed by the passages advocating barbaric tribalism, injustice, and a bunch of really odd social rules that seem to make no sense and are generally ignored.
The brutal, tribal, judgemental God of the OT seems at odds with the compassionate, loving, inclusive teachings of Jesus.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I believe I very much doubt that is the case unless one wishes to say that the old covenant supersedes the new covenant.

I believe that is true. When the new supersedes the old then the refutation using the old is completely irrelevant.

Ok very good. Let's look at the New Covenant. Can you please quote Hebrews 8:9 and briefly explain what the New Covenant mentioned is about? In particular, what was the reason for needing a New Covenant according to that verse?

 

[Muslim-UK]

OK, I can see some sense in that, but it seems to me the supportive passages are greatly overshadowed by the passages advocating barbaric tribalism, injustice, and a bunch of really odd social rules that seem to make no sense and are generally ignored.
The brutal, tribal, judgemental God of the OT seems at odds with the compassionate, loving, inclusive teachings of Jesus.

I don't know how Christians attempt to explain it.

I can tell you Islam teaches, the Israelites changed the texts to justify their superiority over others. They misaligned Prophets, painting some as drunkards etc. They rebelled against God. This is why Jews don't take these stories very seriously, and have a much more measured attitude to their texts. Also Rabbinic Judaism, holds the discussions within the Talmud from the various Scholars over the ages, take priority over the Torah. For this reason, if the Torah says you must go right, and the Talmud says, you must go left. You go left, and that's the end of the matter.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I can tell you Islam teaches, the Israelites changed the texts to justify their superiority over others. They misaligned Prophets, painting some as drunkards etc. They rebelled against God. This is why Jews don't take these stories very seriously, and have a much more measured attitude to their texts. Also Rabbinic Judaism, holds the discussions within the Talmud from the various Scholars over the ages, take priority over the Torah. For this reason, if the Torah says you must go right, and the Talmud says, you must go left. You go left, and that's the end of the matter.

Leaving aside the outrageous antisemitic drivel, what evidence do you have that "the Israelites changed the texts"?

 

[Muslim-UK]

hadith book 52 verse 53, Al-Anfal 8:12

I need more information on the Hadith. Which collection is it from? Perhaps provide a direct link?

Qur'an 8:12 in context:

Following an attempt on the Prophet's life, he managed to escape and made it to Medina. The Muslims were told they stood no chance of entering Mecca to visit the House of God, and they responding, they would disrupt caravan trade routes to Syria. After 2 years and watching Muhammad's pbuh influence and acceptance growing in Medina, the Meccans sought to save a caravan from attack and to destroy the Prophet and his followers. More than 1,000 marched out against 300 Muslims. Chapter 8 was revealed after the events....

8:0 In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
8:1 They consult you about the spoils of war. Say, "The spoils of war belong to GOD and the messenger." You shall observe GOD, exhort one another to be righteous, and obey GOD and His messenger, if you are believers.
8:2 The true believers are those whose hearts tremble when GOD is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened, and they trust in their Lord.
8:3 They observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
8:4 Such are the true believers. They attain high ranks at their Lord, as well as forgiveness and a generous provision.
8:5 When your Lord willed that you leave your home, to fulfill a specific plan, some believers became exposed as reluctant believers.
8:6 They argued with you against the truth, even after everything was explained to them. They acted as if they were being driven to certain death.
8:7 Recall that GOD promised you victory over a certain group, but you still wanted to face the weaker group. It was GOD's plan to establish the truth with His words, and to defeat the disbelievers.
8:8 For He has decreed that the truth shall prevail, and the falsehood shall vanish, in spite of the evildoers.
8:9 Thus, when you implored your Lord to come to the rescue, He responded to you: "I am supporting you with one thousand angels in succession."
8:10 GOD gave you this good news to strengthen your hearts. Victory comes only from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
8:11 He caused peaceful slumber to overtake you and pacify you, and He sent down water from the sky to clean you therewith. He protected you from the devil's curse, reassured your hearts and strengthened your foothold.
8:12 Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."
8:13 This is what they have justly incurred by fighting GOD and His messenger. For those who fight against GOD and His messenger, GOD's retribution is severe.

Now you can see, over 1,000 soldiers sought to kill the small number of Muslims. God sent down angels to assist the Muslims, granting them victory by casting terror into the hearts of the enemy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It is common pracice across many Abrahamic faiths (for the better in my opinion) to cherry pick selective verses or sections of the respective holy books (bible, qur'an, etc.) to profess as being the words of god as well as a set layout of beliefs, but I want to ask one thing: (mostly to hear the viewpoints) Does a holy book still hold up if beliefs come from nearly everywhere except some parts of the book?

I disagree. It is NOT common to "cherry pick" for beliefs. It IS common to take a book with thousands and thousands of verses and cite only a few in defense of a statement of faith. For example, over 150 verses have some version of "Trust Jesus for salvation!" in the New Testament. Surely it is unneeded to post more than one or two verses when posting a statement of faith in Christ as Savior?

Not speaking for other religious texts, the Holy Bible insists that doctrines that are correct be rooted in the book itself, not in personal experience. Even the apostles, eyewitnesses of and for Jesus Christ, said to pay attention to the way the NT fulfills the OT and prophecy as more important than their personal experience.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Leaving aside the outrageous antisemitic drivel, what evidence do you have that "the Israelites changed the texts"?

Your Scribes write:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Moses pbuh foretold as much:

"27 For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the Lord; how much more, then, after my death? 28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. 29 For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands.” Deuteronomy 31:27-29

 

[Tonstad39]

I need more information on the Hadith. Which collection is it from? Perhaps provide a direct link?

Qur'an 8:12 in context:

Following an attempt on the Prophet's life, he managed to escape and made it to Medina. The Muslims were told they stood no chance of entering Mecca to visit the House of God, and they responding, they would disrupt caravan trade routes to Syria. After 2 years and watching Muhammad's pbuh influence and acceptance growing in Medina, the Meccans sought to save a caravan from attack and to destroy the Prophet and his followers. More than 1,000 marched out against 300 Muslims. Chapter 8 was revealed after the events....

8:0 In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
8:1 They consult you about the spoils of war. Say, "The spoils of war belong to GOD and the messenger." You shall observe GOD, exhort one another to be righteous, and obey GOD and His messenger, if you are believers.
8:2 The true believers are those whose hearts tremble when GOD is mentioned, and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened, and they trust in their Lord.
8:3 They observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
8:4 Such are the true believers. They attain high ranks at their Lord, as well as forgiveness and a generous provision.
8:5 When your Lord willed that you leave your home, to fulfill a specific plan, some believers became exposed as reluctant believers.
8:6 They argued with you against the truth, even after everything was explained to them. They acted as if they were being driven to certain death.
8:7 Recall that GOD promised you victory over a certain group, but you still wanted to face the weaker group. It was GOD's plan to establish the truth with His words, and to defeat the disbelievers.
8:8 For He has decreed that the truth shall prevail, and the falsehood shall vanish, in spite of the evildoers.
8:9 Thus, when you implored your Lord to come to the rescue, He responded to you: "I am supporting you with one thousand angels in succession."
8:10 GOD gave you this good news to strengthen your hearts. Victory comes only from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
8:11 He caused peaceful slumber to overtake you and pacify you, and He sent down water from the sky to clean you therewith. He protected you from the devil's curse, reassured your hearts and strengthened your foothold.
8:12 Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."
8:13 This is what they have justly incurred by fighting GOD and His messenger. For those who fight against GOD and His messenger, GOD's retribution is severe.

Now you can see, over 1,000 soldiers sought to kill the small number of Muslims. God sent down angels to assist the Muslims, granting them victory by casting terror into the hearts of the enemy.

52. Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books

 

[Kemosloby]

Possibly. God in his wisdom may have created several ways for things to be. For instance John the Baptist was forbidden to drink any alcohol. Jesus drank a lot. For the very purpose of covering both sides of the coin. That someone could not deny the faith because someone was drinking or not drinking.

 

[Muslim-UK]

52. Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that Hadith. To fight in self defence is better than living under oppression. Islam is not a pacifist religion, we seek terms of peace based on justice or we fight until there's no more oppression.

 

[Muslim-UK]

For instance John the Baptist was forbidden to drink any alcohol. Jesus drank a lot.

Can you show me where Jesus pbuh drank lots of alcohol?

 

[Tonstad39]

Possibly. God in his wisdom may have created several ways for things to be. For instance John the Baptist was forbidden to drink any alcohol. Jesus drank a lot. For the very purpose of covering both sides of the coin. That someone could not deny the faith because someone was drinking or not drinking.

But, what of verses like Leviticus 16:15 Leviticus 18:14 & Leviticus 18:22 So, how well do you believe that the holy book holds up in the face of these verses

It IS common to take a book with thousands and thousands of verses and cite only a few in defense of a statement of faith.

That IS cherry picking

 

[Tonstad39]

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that Hadith. To fight in self defence is better than living under oppression. Islam is not a pacifist religion, we seek terms of peace based on justice or we fight until there's no more oppression.

Now, this is very interesting especially given current events in Europe that Hadith 53 and Hadith 43 would still hold up given how the more toxic interperatations radicalize people into being martyrs. The reformation of Islam is a very hot topic right now so if your faith was prophessed in a way similiar to Christianity and Judaism where the Imam would go through select books while odemoting some of the more backward parts of the Qu'ran, would the Qu'ran in your opinion start to lose its holiness.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Now, this is very interesting especially given current events in Europe that Hadith 53 and Hadith 43 would still hold up given how the more toxic interperatations radicalize people into being martyrs. The reformation of Islam is a very hot topic right now so if your faith was prophessed in a way similiar to Christianity and Judaism where the Imam would go through select books while odemoting some of the more backward parts of the Qu'ran, would the Qu'ran in your opinion start to lose its holiness.

You didn't provide a link for Hadith 43, unless I missed it. Please do so and then I'll respond to your statement.

 

[Tonstad39]

You didn't provide a link for Hadith 43, unless I missed it. Please do so and then I'll respond to your statement.

43. Oppressions from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books

 

[Muslim-UK]

43. Oppressions from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books

The link took me to several Hadiths, 640-649 which one would you like me to look at?

 

[Tonstad39]

The link took me to several Hadiths, 640-649 which one would you like me to look at?

644

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your Scribes write:

"How can you say, 'We [The Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

So, I have this image of you sitting in front of your computer surrounded by faded post-its referencing tired old talking points. Oh, well, ...

First, as for the text, The NJPS Jewish Study Bible renders the verse as follows:

Jeremiah 8:8​

How can you say. "We are wise,
And we posses the Instructions of the Lord"?
Assuredly, for naught has the pen labored,
For naught the scribes!​

And NET Bible notes:

24 tn Heb “The lying pen of the scribes have made [it] into a lie.” The translation is an attempt to make the most common interpretation of this passage understandable for the average reader. This is, however, a difficult passage whose interpretation is greatly debated and whose syntax is capable of other interpretations. The interpretation of the NJPS, “Assuredly, for naught has the pen labored, for naught the scribes,” surely deserves consideration within the context; i.e. it hasn’t done any good for the scribes to produce a reliable copy of the law, which the people have refused to follow. That interpretation has the advantage of explaining the absence of an object for the verb “make” or “labored” but creates a very unbalanced poetic couplet.​

But let's recall that you wrote:

the Israelites changed the texts to justify their superiority over others.

Can you offer an example showing both the original text and the redaction intended "to justify their superiority over others"? And can you tell us why these deceitful Jews failed to redact Jeremiah 8:8? Or should we simply assume that Jews (being Jews) were as incompetent as they were malicious?

 

[Muslim-UK]

644

644 : Narrated Anas: I was the butler of the people in the house of Abu Talha, and in those days drinks were prepared from dates. Allah's Apostle ordered somebody to announce that alcoholic drinks had been prohibited. Abu Talha ordered me to go out and spill the wine. I went out and spilled it, and it flowed in the streets of Medina. Some people said, "Some people were killed and wine was still in their stomachs." On that the Divine revelation came:-- "On those who believe And do good deeds There is no blame For what they ate (in the past)." (5.93)

I'm not sure what you think this means? People had died before the prohibition of alcohol, so what will happen to them hen they return to God? The answer is given in the red.

Earlier, I said, "Yes, there's nothing wrong with that Hadith. To fight in self defence is better than living under oppression. Islam is not a pacifist religion, we seek terms of peace based on justice or we fight until there's no more oppression."

This was in response to the other Hadith related to fighting and martyrdom. Your response was:

Now, this is very interesting especially given current events in Europe that Hadith 53 and Hadith 43 would still hold up given how the more toxic interperatations radicalize people into being martyrs.

How would those Hadiths and verse from the Qur'an be relevant to what's happening in Europe. The events in Europe have nothing to do with religion. Isis have declared a state, well after the next few days, it will be former state on land they seized. They tried to use religion and appealed to the Muslims, but the Ulema, (Scholars of knowledge) branded them unislamic, and so very few people went to join them. Most joining didn't even know the basics of Islam.

If it had been about establishing a proper Caliphate, then Millions would have joined them.

Your original post was about cherry picking verses. I've shown the message of the Qur'an is consistent throughout and any verse you cite, when looked at in context supports this claim.

The reformation of Islam is a very hot topic right now so if your faith was prophessed in a way similiar to Christianity and Judaism where the Imam would go through select books while odemoting some of the more backward parts of the Qu'ran, would the Qu'ran in your opinion start to lose its holiness.

Islam is a complete religion. No reformation will be allowed and besides any Islamic State of the future will be in lands already inhabited by majority Muslim, who will elect to be ruled under Shariah. That will be good and most Muslims will leave the West for such a State.