Holy book woes

[Muslim-UK]

So, I have this image of you sitting in front of your computer surrounded by faded post-its referencing tired old talking points. Oh, well, ...

First, as for the text, The NJPS Jewish Study Bible renders the verse as follows:

Jeremiah 8:8​

How can you say. "We are wise,
And we posses the Instructions of the Lord"?
Assuredly, for naught has the pen labored,
For naught the scribes!​

And NET Bible notes:

24 tn Heb “The lying pen of the scribes have made [it] into a lie.” The translation is an attempt to make the most common interpretation of this passage understandable for the average reader. This is, however, a difficult passage whose interpretation is greatly debated and whose syntax is capable of other interpretations. The interpretation of the NJPS, “Assuredly, for naught has the pen labored, for naught the scribes,” surely deserves consideration within the context; i.e. it hasn’t done any good for the scribes to produce a reliable copy of the law, which the people have refused to follow. That interpretation has the advantage of explaining the absence of an object for the verb “make” or “labored” but creates a very unbalanced poetic couplet.​

That is sufficient for us to go around and around in a merry circle.​

But let's recall that you wrote:

Can you offer an example showing both the original text and the redaction intended "to justify their superiority over others"? And can you tell us why these deceitful Jews failed to redact Jeremiah 8:8? Or should we simply assume that Jews (being Jews) were as incompetent as they were malicious?

Masha'Allah very good questions. The Jews could have kept Jeremiah because it was used by a certain sect within Judaism, or perhaps they didn't care what people thought. Who knows. The more important point you picked up on is where is this Jewish Superiority shown in the Torah. One of the most important events recorded in the Torah is the story of God's Covenant with Abraham pbuh. A careful reading of events shows the 'lying pen of the Scribes' changed the narrative.

I will be using the following Torah to examine the story: Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Berei****) are you happy with this version, or do you have an alternative preference?

 

[Muslim-UK]

btw it's silly to label Muslims as antisemitic given the Muslim Arabs are directly related to the Jewish Israelites. History shows intermarrying between Ishmaelites and Israelites.

 

[Rival]

A careful reading of events shows the 'lying pen of the Scribes' changed the narrative.

This isn't what 'lying pen of the scribes' means. It refers to the people's dislike of Jeremiah's prophecies and lead the false prophets to write their own. No-one wanted to believe Jeremiah and he was thrown in prison, nearly killed, then went to Egypt after the fall of Jerusalem.

Again, from the Jewish Encyclopaedia:

"Just as little justifiable is the theory, which has recently been suggested, that Jeremiah in his later years departed from the Deuteronomic law. "The false [lying] pen of the scribe," which, as Jeremiah says, "makes the Torah of Yhwh to falsehood" (Jer. viii. 8, Hebr.), could not have referred to the Deuteronomic law, nor to its falsification by copyists. Rather, Jeremiah is thinking here of another compilation of laws which was then in progress under the direction of his opponents, the priests of the central sanctuary at Jerusalem. Jeremiah probably expected from them no other conception of law than the narrow Levitical one, which actually is apparent in the legal portions of the so-called Priestly writings and results from the Priestly point of view."

JEREMIAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Muslim-UK]

This isn't what 'lying pen of the scribes' means. It refers to the people's dislike of Jeremiah's prophecies and lead the false prophets to write their own. No-one wanted to believe Jeremiah and he was thrown in prison, nearly killed, then went to Egypt after the fall of Jerusalem.

Again, from the Jewish Encyclopaedia:

"Just as little justifiable is the theory, which has recently been suggested, that Jeremiah in his later years departed from the Deuteronomic law. "The false [lying] pen of the scribe," which, as Jeremiah says, "makes the Torah of Yhwh to falsehood" (Jer. viii. 8, Hebr.), could not have referred to the Deuteronomic law, nor to its falsification by copyists. Rather, Jeremiah is thinking here of another compilation of laws which was then in progress under the direction of his opponents, the priests of the central sanctuary at Jerusalem. Jeremiah probably expected from them no other conception of law than the narrow Levitical one, which actually is apparent in the legal portions of the so-called Priestly writings and results from the Priestly point of view."

JEREMIAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Theories of later Theologians or based on Hadiths of Jeremiah pbuh? I'm guessing theologians, but correct me if I'm wrong. In any event, once our Jewish friend responds, we'll see if the Scribes were honest and reliable or stiff necked and corrupt as Moses pbuh alluded to.

 

[Rival]

Theories of later Theologians or based on Hadiths of Jeremiah pbuh? I'm guessing theologians, but correct me if I'm wrong. In any event, once our Jewish friend responds, we'll see if the Scribes were honest and reliable or stiff necked and corrupt as Moses pbuh alluded to.

There are no narrations (ahadith) of Jeremiah. This is just common Jewish knowledge. If you are interested, Rabbi Singer made a video about it. There were fals prophets who wrote down their fals prophecies because no-one wanted to hear what Jeremiah was saying.

 

[Ponder This]

It is common pracice across many Abrahamic faiths (for the better in my opinion) to cherry pick selective verses or sections of the respective holy books (bible, qur'an, etc.) to profess as being the words of god as well as a set layout of beliefs, but I want to ask one thing: (mostly to hear the viewpoints) Does a holy book still hold up if beliefs come from nearly everywhere except some parts of the book?

Ok excellent, you've given some examples per your understanding.

A very brief understanding of the message of the Qur'an is as follows:
God is One, He created us to worship Him alone. As a God of Mercy and Compassion, He loves those who turn to Him, those who are patient, those who love their neighbour and those who are good to others.

He is at war with those who turn to idols, those who seek to cause mischief and those who attack the believers.

Now zone in on one of the examples you mentioned, bring the Hadith or Quranic quote and let's examine the context.

If we are going to cherry pick the Qur'an, shouldn't we consider the Hadith:
According to al-Bukhari, Abu Sa'id narrated that the Messenger of Allah said to his Companions...
"Is one of you not able to recite a third of the Qur'an in a single night?"
and they said, "Which of us is able to do that, O Messenger of Allah?"
To which he replied, "Allah al-Wahid as-Samad is a third of the Qur'an"
al-Ikhlās
bismillāh ir-rahmān ir-rahīm
Qul huwa Allāhu ahad
Allāh s-samad
Lam yalid wa lam yūlad
wa lam yakul-la-hū kufu-wan ahad

In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Say: He is God, the only One
God, the absolutely Eternal
He does not beget, nor is He begotten
And there is none comparable to Him.

So essentially one third of the Qur'an is a declaration of monotheism.
"Thou shalt have no others gods before me." - Exodus 20:3

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

btw it's silly to label Muslims as antisemitic given the Muslim Arabs are directly related to the Jewish Israelites.

<yawn>

ignore-list​

</yawn>

 

[Muslim-UK]

There are no narrations (ahadith) of Jeremiah. This is just common Jewish knowledge. If you are interested, Rabbi Singer made a video about it. There were fals prophets who wrote down their fals prophecies because no-one wanted to hear what Jeremiah was saying.

I loving Rabbi Tovia Singer, wonderful Rabbi, a truly blessed man. May Allah swt guide him. Common Jewish knowledge you say, please provide the source showing no one wanted to hear what Jeremiah pbuh had to say.

 

[Rival]

I loving Rabbi Tovia Singer, wonderful Rabbi, a truly blessed man. May Allah swt guide him. Common Jewish knowledge you say, please provide the source showing no one wanted to hear what Jeremiah pbuh had to say.

Here is the video he did about it. He can put it much better than I can and I might as well let him speak for himself. It's a little long but worth it.

 

[Kemosloby]

But, what of verses like Leviticus 16:15 Leviticus 18:14 & Leviticus 18:22 So, how well do you believe that the holy book holds up in the face of these verses

That IS cherry picking

You can't site the whole thing. To me, "Cherry picking' is citing a verse out of context. Cherry picking certain parts of the verse or chapter to do so.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Here is the video he did about it. He can put it much better than I can and I might as well let him speak for himself. It's a little long but worth it.

I'm watching and have great respect for the Rabbi. He says, there were false prophets who were telling people they could defeat Babylon for they had the Temple, and animal sacrifices on their side, but they were liars and didn't have God on their side. That's fine I accept that at face value, but am left wondering why the verse simply doesn't say,

"How can you say, 'They [The misguided Jews] are wise, and the law of the LORD is with them'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." Jeremiah 8:8

Clearly as well placed and admirable as the Rabbi is, this verse is hotly contested for clear reasons. I thank you for the video though.

Let's put the verse to one side for the time being and reserve judgement on the Scribes of the Torah. According to you, what significance does the Talmud have? Is it inspired?

The Torah has never been altered according to the Rabbi, it was promised to be preserved by Hashem, Holy and blessed be His name. I would never expect a Rabbi to ever say otherwise. You appealed to the Jewish Encyclopedia earlier, what about Grolier's Encyclopedia, (Academic American encyclopedia), Is it reliable?

 

[Rival]

Let's put the verse to one side for the time being and reserve judgement on the Scribes of the Torah. According to you, what significance does the Talmud have? Is it inspired?

Yes, but I am not very familiar with Talmud at all. As I'm not Jewish, it's never really been my business.

The Torah has never been altered according to the Rabbi, it was promised to be preserved by Hashem, Holy and blessed be His name. I would never expect a Rabbi to ever say otherwise. You appealed to the Jewish Encyclopedia earlier, what about Grolier's Encyclopedia, (Academic American encyclopedia), Is it reliable?

I'm not familiar with it.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Yes, but I am not very familiar with Talmud at all. As I'm not Jewish, it's never really been my business.

I'm not familiar with it.

You're tricky to pin down. Ok you do think the Torah has not been changed, so we can work on that angle:

In the books II Kings and II Chronicles we get two different ages for Ahaziah when he began to reign in Jerusalem.

Is it

22 years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel. II Kings 8:26

or

42 years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. II Chronicles 8:26

 

[Rival]

You're tricky to pin down. Ok you do think the Torah has not been changed, so we can work on that angle:

In the books II Kings and II Chronicles we get two different ages for Ahaziah when he began to reign in Jerusalem.

Is it

22 years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel. II Kings 8:26

or

42 years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. II Chronicles 8:26

G-d knows! I'll research it tomorrow. I'm too sleepy now.

 

[danieldemol]

Islam is a complete religion. No reformation will be allowed and besides any Islamic State of the future will be in lands already inhabited by majority Muslim, who will elect to be ruled under Shariah. That will be good and most Muslims will leave the West for such a State.

If Muslims were capable of electing a caliph to lead them in Shariah without reformation they have had since 1924 to do it, what are they waiting for?

 

[Confucian Mormon Buddhist]

Of course they do. If you want examples:

Jews = Don't know a particular one, but they have a terrible reputation for being legalistic and trying to lawyer their way out of things.

Christians = People who basically just ignore the Old Testament because they don't personally like it.

Islam = People who quote Muhammad's nice quotes but ignore his wars of aggression and other atrocities.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We see that this was because of Gods promise to Abraham and to ensure the line of the Messiah
was protected.

Because an omnipotent Being Who can make humans out of dirt can't just make a Messiah?

God has not told anyone to murder another for their disbelief.

It's all over the bible, actually.

The brutal, tribal, judgemental God of the OT seems at odds with the compassionate, loving, inclusive teachings of Jesus.

We also have to remember that God regrets killing nearly everyone in the OT. He's happy to do it with a loophole in the NT.

 

[Confucian Mormon Buddhist]

Because an omnipotent Being Who can make humans out of dirt can't just make a Messiah?


It's all over the bible, actually.


We also have to remember that God regrets killing nearly everyone in the OT. He's happy to do it with a loophole in the NT.

I once heard an interesting sermon which argued that Jesus also has a much more strict moral standard than "OT God." He doesn't just ban certain behaviors, but addresses attitudes to. The whole "if you want to kill your brother, it's like you killed him IRL" thing.

 

[arthra]

I want to ask one thing: (mostly to hear the viewpoints) Does a holy book still hold up if beliefs come from nearly everywhere except some parts of the book?

In my opinion there is what could be called the "spirit of the age".. meaning aside from a given scripture there are or could be similar implications found in other materials aside from an actual text in a given scripture... so through inspiration philosophers, poets and others could be conveying similar messages in the period in question.

It's also possible that widely held beliefs or legends of the period could appear in symbolic terms in a scripture.

 

[Muslim-UK]

If Muslims were capable of electing a caliph to lead them in Shariah without reformation they have had since 1924 to do it, what are they waiting for?

Because after the Ottoman Empire was carved up between Britain, France, Spain, Italy Russia and Greece the Muslims were left weak and without leadership. The Western powers allowed despots and dictators to rule with iron fists, turning on them if they started to bite the hand that fed them. It's pretty much been like that ever since and will remain so for the foreseeable future.