Holy book woes

[BilliardsBall]

But, what of verses like Leviticus 16:15 Leviticus 18:14 & Leviticus 18:22 So, how well do you believe that the holy book holds up in the face of these verses

That IS cherry picking

You mean like you just did above?

 

[MJFlores]

It is common pracice across many Abrahamic faiths (for the better in my opinion) to cherry pick selective verses or sections of the respective holy books (bible, qur'an, etc.) to profess as being the words of god as well as a set layout of beliefs, but I want to ask one thing: (mostly to hear the viewpoints) Does a holy book still hold up if beliefs come from nearly everywhere except some parts of the book?

What do you mean by cherry pick? What is and what is not cherry picking?

View attachment 18195

Could you give us an example that these people cherry pick selective verses? Could they reasonably explain these cherry picked verses?

Maybe If it is spiritually edible then we should eat them.
I love cherries with ice cream

 

[Tonstad39]

What do you mean by cherry pick? What is and what is not cherry picking?

View attachment 18195

Could you give us an example that these people cherry pick selective verses? Could they reasonably explain these cherry picked verses?

Maybe If it is spiritually edible then we should eat them.
I love cherries with ice cream

View attachment 18196

In all honesty, the only example I have to bring forth are my own experiences with preachers of church services that I was dragged into by my more religious relatives. My own personal conjecture is that preachers tend to avoid backward parts of the holy book *hangs head in shame*

 

[Thief]

It is common pracice across many Abrahamic faiths (for the better in my opinion) to cherry pick selective verses or sections of the respective holy books (bible, qur'an, etc.) to profess as being the words of god as well as a set layout of beliefs, but I want to ask one thing: (mostly to hear the viewpoints) Does a holy book still hold up if beliefs come from nearly everywhere except some parts of the book?

and the Carpenter can be quoted....
...if you keep My sayings.....they will keep yours.....

I get it
I keep to the scheme and method laid down by His example
and then perform and speak in the same way

then my sayings are kept as they are in the scheme of the Master

 

[Tonstad39]

and the Carpenter can be quoted....
...if you keep My sayings.....they will keep yours.....

I get it
I keep to the scheme and method laid down by His example
and then perform and speak in the same way

then my sayings are kept as they are in the scheme of the Master

Neat proverbs, but how does a (or your) holy book withstand amid modern science and human rights.

 

[Thief]

Neat proverbs, but how does a (or your) holy book withstand amid modern science and human rights.

I have reconciled Genesis with science

and to do unto others as I would have them do unto me....
is all the law I need

 

[MJFlores]

In all honesty, the only example I have to bring forth are my own experiences with preachers of church services that I was dragged into by my more religious relatives. My own personal conjecture is that preachers tend to avoid backward parts of the holy book *hangs head in shame*

Well if I have a relative who would drag me into a religion.
I would listen to what is being preached.
After listening, I would ask questions followed by more questions.
Its up to the listener if he is going to believe what is being said.
It is really an option - to believe or not to believe.
Is it the truth? Then believe or not.
No one should force the truth, it should be freely accepted.

Unless if your relatives are ISIS who will really force you to their religion. Religion is a matter of choice - to believe or not to believe - it should not be a "convert or die" thing.

ISIS Video Warns U.S.: 'Convert to Islam' or 'You Will Have to Pay the Jizya Tax'

 

[Tonstad39]

Unless if your relatives are ISIS who will really force you to their religion. Religion is a matter of choice

They never did want to force me into Christianity, but they did care about familial respect towards one another. I was usually disengaged from what the priest said and the times I was actively listening, I notice that they tend to do the following: Read the Bible followed by his own comments and/or Give a sermon constructed of anecdotes & rhetorical questions to the congregation.

 

[MJFlores]

They never did want to force me into Christianity, but they did care about familial respect towards one another. I was usually disengaged from what the priest said and the times I was actively listening, I notice that they tend to do the following: Read the Bible followed by his own comments and/or Give a sermon constructed of anecdotes & rhetorical questions to the congregation.

There you go - they are totally harmless.

A religion of force conversion is a desperate religion. No one can force faith over others, the result would be fake faith.

Let them believe what they want to believe.
I'm sure "the priest" would have a ton of stories than bible verses - those are the things which I personally hate [private interpretations].

There are 30,000-40,000 different denominations of Christianity - each have different interpretations of the bible, each do not agree on the details of what is and what is not. It is healthy to examine the doctrines, to find the not. If there is one not, then it is not.

It is like a Sesame Street song:

Finding that unique belief which is really based on the Bible.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Correct Murder is forbidden. There is no compulsion in religion, and people are free to come and go as they please, though to do so is making a mockery of God.

Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way. Qur'an 4:137

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Qur'an 18:29

I do not believe the actions of a person reflects or makes a mockery of God.
God exists independently of man and we exist because of God, not the other way around.
Human beings believe according to their hearts. Man is perfect in the fallen flesh. God knows what we are and how we think. He is above the human train of thought. Yeshua said:-


Mark 3:28-29Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
28 Yes! I tell you that people will be forgiven all sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 however, someone who blasphemes against the Ruach HaKodesh never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin.”

That's why one should study and be sure they are onto the truth before committing to any particular faith. If after doing that, you have doubts in the following days, weeks, months, ears etc, then fine go ahead and leave, keeping the matter between you, your family and God.

God never let's go of anyone who comes to him.
In the Jewish bible the Messiah Yeshua shows that when someone goes astray God the Father is always waiting to welcome them back.

17 “At last he came to his senses and said, ‘Any number of my father’s hired workers have food to spare; and here I am, starving to death! 18 I’m going to get up and go back to my father and say to him, “Father, I have sinned against Heaven and against you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me like one of your hired workers.” ’ 20 So he got up and started back to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was moved with pity. He ran and threw his arms around him and kissed him warmly. 21 His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against Heaven and against you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son — ’ 22 but his father said to his slaves, ‘Quick, bring out a robe, the best one, and put it on him; and put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet; 23 and bring the calf that has been fattened up, and kill it. Let’s eat and have a celebration! 24 For this son of mine was dead, but now he’s alive again! He was lost, but now he has been found!’ And they began celebrating.

Everyone believes from their own faith. But God is a loving Father who wants always for his children to return and
live with him in their lives.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. Qur'an 2:256

Under a Islamic State run with proper Shariah Law, (God's Law) people are free to leave their religion if they choose to do so.
In early Islam after the Prophet's death, there was a mass exodus of people who didn't really believe, and they sought to destroy Islam in its infancy. The decision was taken by the Caliph to fight these people and stem the exodus. Unique situation, unique time in History.

Elsewhere there were people who left freely, but then went over to the enemies of God and actively fought against the believers, either directly on the battlefield or indirectly by planting doubts in the minds of those weak in faith. Under Shariah Law this was classed as Treason, and such people could repent or refuse to do so and be killed.

Today Treason is still punishable by death even in some non Muslim Countries. America will kill its own citizens under Political Treason grounds without a trial or even arrest. Anwar al-Awlaki - Wikipedia

The Word of God was given to Moses and the Prophets. We differ for many reasons but the Words Christ spoke has to be heeded. If not, then as written in Dueteronomy man will have to give an account of himself. 15 “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested Adonai your God, ‘Don’t let me hear the voice of Adonai my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!’ 17 On that occasion Adonai said to me, ‘They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. 19 Whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.


From the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came that descendant. Yeshua has spoken and all men must heed.
But this is about Holy Book woes. It has nothing to do with any Countries own laws and actions. Treason has no place in religion.

 

[RESOLUTION]

#We don't see that. It's just a 4,000 year old story.

Whose WE?

If religious then we know it is not just a story the millions and billions of Jews and Christians show
that God kept his promises so you cannot dismiss it with such an answer.

So morality is malleable; situational? I thought Christians believed in a morality writ in stone.

Are you talking about Judaism or the New Covenant.
As far as I am aware they were not Christians when Moses took them to the promised Land.
All Christians are Jews today for they are joined in the Spirit by Christ in the New Covenant.
So your answer is not relevant.

OK, I think I understand. What's moral is what's convenient; what benefits you or yours.
So genocide is OK. It would have been OK simply to liquidate the entire population of Native Americans in fulfillment of our manifest destiny and exceptionalism. Deuteronomy 20 makes this clear:
"16However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17Completely destroy them"

So war breaks out do you defend your family or leave them to die?
Your reasoning doesn't work does it.
Genocide... you mean it was okay for the Egyptians to murder all the Children of the descendants of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob but God forbid they kill to survive? Were the Americans in the Desert with Moses?
So not applicable then?
As they advanced they had to kill those who would kill them and turn them from the path they were to
follow with God. But that was nothing new. Romans, Vikings, anglo saxons, and the Normans all invaded
other Countries. It was no different, it was the way of life. But in this case it was the survival of life.
Not really a good argument you make it sound as if it was the only incident. Ok for man but for a just God.

So a rebellious son or promiscuous woman should not be stoned to death?

As Christ said, if you have no sin yourself then cast the first stone.
All have sinned. Do you think that Christ was wrong when said:-King James Bible
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you,
let him first cast a stone at her. Are you without wrong in your life?

No one is innocent and no one but God has the right to take a life.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I look at the whole Bible and look at views of Christians on the subject across the centuries
Looking at the whole picture and emphasize it as the writers tend to emphasize things seems more reasonable

 

[RESOLUTION]

Because an omnipotent Being Who can make humans out of dirt can't just make a Messiah?


It's all over the bible, actually.


We also have to remember that God regrets killing nearly everyone in the OT. He's happy to do it with a loophole in the NT.

I guess you need to read up before you make assertions without facts or understanding.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Where was I wrong exactly?

1. God can do anything. With Him, nothing is impossible.
1a. Unless your opponents use iron.
1b. Unless you're beheaded.
1c. Unless you're not the focus of the plot.

2. God doesn't condone killing.
2a. Unless your prophet made a pretty metal cow.
2b. Unless you actually wanted to keep your home safe from incoming religious terrorists.
2c. Unless you short Him on that money He doesn't need.
2d. Unless you break even the pettiest of over 600 rules.

3. God promises He'll never destroy the world again.
3a. With water. Fire isn't water. Yay God!

 

[Muslim-UK]

I do not believe the actions of a person reflects or makes a mockery of God.
God exists independently of man and we exist because of God, not the other way around.
Human beings believe according to their hearts. Man is perfect in the fallen flesh. God knows what we are and how we think. He is above the human train of thought. Yeshua said:-


Mark 3:28-29Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
28 Yes! I tell you that people will be forgiven all sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 however, someone who blasphemes against the Ruach HaKodesh never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin.”




God never let's go of anyone who comes to him.
In the Jewish bible the Messiah Yeshua shows that when someone goes astray God the Father is always waiting to welcome them back.

17 “At last he came to his senses and said, ‘Any number of my father’s hired workers have food to spare; and here I am, starving to death! 18 I’m going to get up and go back to my father and say to him, “Father, I have sinned against Heaven and against you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me like one of your hired workers.” ’ 20 So he got up and started back to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was moved with pity. He ran and threw his arms around him and kissed him warmly. 21 His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against Heaven and against you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son — ’ 22 but his father said to his slaves, ‘Quick, bring out a robe, the best one, and put it on him; and put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet; 23 and bring the calf that has been fattened up, and kill it. Let’s eat and have a celebration! 24 For this son of mine was dead, but now he’s alive again! He was lost, but now he has been found!’ And they began celebrating.

Everyone believes from their own faith. But God is a loving Father who wants always for his children to return and
live with him in their lives.




The Word of God was given to Moses and the Prophets. We differ for many reasons but the Words Christ spoke has to be heeded. If not, then as written in Dueteronomy man will have to give an account of himself. 15 “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested Adonai your God, ‘Don’t let me hear the voice of Adonai my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!’ 17 On that occasion Adonai said to me, ‘They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. 19 Whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.


From the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came that descendant. Yeshua has spoken and all men must heed.
But this is about Holy Book woes. It has nothing to do with any Countries own laws and actions. Treason has no place in religion.

Salam,
Before I can address your post, could you please tell me what sort of Christian you are?

 

[gnostic]

That is vague.

Also, christianity, doesn't profess any of the bible to be 'non-divine', except for the apocrypha. Some churches use the apocrypha.

There have been individuals who held opinions about various books; however, after the main canon was compiled, it is all considered 'divine'.

Being inspired by the divine, doesn't mean they (scriptures) were written by the divine.

A man can be inspired by the woman whom he love, that he will write a song, a poem or a book about her.

The woman may be his source of inspiration, but it doesn't make her the lyricist, poet or author.

Likewise, the authors to the scriptures were written by men, not written by god - inspired or not.

I know that Christians would claim that the Holy Spirit made them write the New Testament gospels, or the archangel dictated to Muhammad, who transmitted to his disciples to write the Qur'an, but neither of these claims can be in any way verified.

Both claims are cannot be substantiated, so they are just as bogus, Joseph Smith's claim of the (nonexistent) gold plates of writing.

So your claim that the bible were divinely written are just merely your "faith" talking.

 

[gnostic]

Using the OT one is able to refute the Christians on just about any issue, which is why the awaited response will be something along the lines of ... "But but we live under the New Covenant now."

True, but I can also use the OT and NT to debunk every claims about Muhammad's Qur'an.

 

[gnostic]

It is common pracice across many Abrahamic faiths (for the better in my opinion) to cherry pick selective verses or sections of the respective holy books (bible, qur'an, etc.) to profess as being the words of god as well as a set layout of beliefs, but I want to ask one thing: (mostly to hear the viewpoints) Does a holy book still hold up if beliefs come from nearly everywhere except some parts of the book?

Cherry picking often take the verse out-of-context, because you are ignoring the surrounding texts of the quoted passage.

2nd, it is worse form of scholarship, because the ones who do the cherry picking, always have agenda. And the method of using this tactics often being to light their biases and dishonesty.

 

[Muslim-UK]

True, but I can also use the OT and NT to debunk every claims about Muhammad's Qur'an.

Pick the strongest point you can debunk and let's see.

 

[Desert Snake]

Being inspired by the divine, doesn't mean they (scriptures) were written by the divine.

A man can be inspired by the woman whom he love, that he will write a song, a poem or a book about her.

The woman may be his source of inspiration, but it doesn't make her the lyricist, poet or author.

Likewise, the authors to the scriptures were written by men, not written by god - inspired or not.

I know that Christians would claim that the Holy Spirit made them write the New Testament gospels, or the archangel dictated to Muhammad, who transmitted to his disciples to write the Qur'an, but neither of these claims can be in any way verified.

Both claims are cannot be substantiated, so they are just as bogus, Joseph Smith's claim of the (nonexistent) gold plates of writing.

So your claim that the bible were divinely written are just merely your "faith" talking.

I don't know what all this nonsense has to do with what I wrote. Who cares, you clearly didn't understand the post