Holy Land and the Jews

[Aabraham ben Azar]

I know the genealogy of Abraham. But knowing the genealogy is not enough. You have to actually read the texts and understand them. (Clearly, you don't do that.)

If you have REALLY read the Genesis about Jacob and Esau, then you would know. You haven't, have you?

Did you read anywhere where God had a covenant with Esau? If you read Jacob and Esau, Esau already had move outside of Canaan, when Jacob returned from Harran with his family.

What you SERIOUSLY FAILED TO UNDERSTAND is who had covenant with god and who didn't. Ishmael didn't. Isaac's other half-brothers didn't. Lot didn't. Esau didn't.

Isaac's other half-brothers didn't. Lot didn't. Esau didn't.
For time being let us agree with you that Esau didn't , What about his descendants ?

 

[gnostic]

For time being let us agree with you that Esau didn't , What about his descendants ?

Esau's descendants have their own land, the Edom (the land of Seir), hence the Edomites. And when Moses and Joshua led the Israelites (out of Egypt and back to Canaan), the Edomites were still living in Seir or Edom. You do know the Edomites, don't you?

And if you've read all the references to Genesis, he traded his birthright to his younger twin, and then lost his blessing and inheritance to his brother, through Rebecca's manipulation. Instead of a blessing, Esau got this from his father:

36 Esau said, “Isn’t he rightly named Jacob[a]? He has deceived me these two times: He took my birthright, and now he’s taken my blessing!” Then he asked, “Haven’t you reserved any blessing for me?”
37 Isaac answered Esau, “I have made him lord over you and have made all his relatives his servants, and I have sustained him with grain and new wine. So what can I possibly do for you, my son?”
38 Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!” Then Esau wept aloud. 39 His father Isaac answered him,
“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.
40 You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck. ”

Hardly, what I call a blessing.

You really haven't read any quote I had put up earlier?

You didn't read the quote that about God's covenant to Jacob?

This is why I complained about your selective reading. You don't read all the relevant verses, just the ones you think you can win an argument. Hardly what I'd call "objective scholarship".

Ok, I'll try again.

When Isaac sent Jacob back to his father's old home in Haran, to find a wife, but when he had reached Bethel, he had a vision:

There above it[e] stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you. ”

Jacob returned with his whole family, about 20 years later. Just before Jacob met with Esau, at Peniel, he met an angel whom he wrestle with. The angel gave him a new name - Israel. (Genesis 32:22-33; I am not going to quote this whole episode, so read the relevant quote.) And the meeting with Esau went well for Jacob, and Esau returned to Seir, which was to be home for his descendants - the Edomites.

16 So that day Esau started on his way back to Seir.

Is that not clear enough for you, that Esau didn't belong in Canaan?

Later, Jacob go back to Bethel (Genesis 35:1-15), where he had 1st had his vision of God and God's covenant, so that Jacob could built altar there.

Then God said to Jacob, “Go up to Bethel and settle there, and build an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you were fleeing from your brother Esau.”

God not only confirmed that Jacob's name would be changed to "Israel" (Genesis 35:10), but confirmed that his descendants would have Canaan (Genesis 35:12):

9 After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram,[c] God appeared to him again and blessed him. 10 God said to him, “Your name is Jacob,[d] but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel.[e]” So he named him Israel.
11 And God said to him, “I am God Almighty[f]; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. 12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you. ” 13 Then God went up from him at the place where he had talked with him.

Do you see? God gave his promise to Abraham and to Isaac (about the land of Canaan), and now to Jacob/Israel.

Now if you have read the entire Genesis, I wouldn't even need to quote them. I am not Jewish or Christian, but even I can see it.

The land wasn't promised to the descendants of Ishmael or to the descendants of Esau.

And there are further references found in many places in the Exodus that the Israelites would eventually receive Canaan.

 

[Caladan]

For your information I am cousin of Bnei Yesrael and not the converted Jews ( I hope it's clear now ).

I want your proof that you are a descendent of Abraham, show us your genealogical documents and evidence. Your statement becomes even more absurd as you deny Jews the same 'credentials'.

 

[beerisit]

I want your proof that you are a descendent of Abraham, show us your genealogical documents and evidence. Your statement becomes even more absurd as you deny Jews the same 'credentials'.

Yeah I asked him that from the get go.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

Esau's descendants have their own land, the Edom (the land of Seir), hence the Edomites. And when Moses and Joshua led the Israelites (out of Egypt and back to Canaan), the Edomites were still living in Seir or Edom. You do know the Edomites, don't you?

And if you've read all the references to Genesis, he traded his birthright to his younger twin, and then lost his blessing and inheritance to his brother, through Rebecca's manipulation. Instead of a blessing, Esau got this from his father:



Hardly, what I call a blessing.

You really haven't read any quote I had put up earlier?

You didn't read the quote that about God's covenant to Jacob?

This is why I complained about your selective reading. You don't read all the relevant verses, just the ones you think you can win an argument. Hardly what I'd call "objective scholarship".

Ok, I'll try again.

When Isaac sent Jacob back to his father's old home in Haran, to find a wife, but when he had reached Bethel, he had a vision:



Jacob returned with his whole family, about 20 years later. Just before Jacob met with Esau, at Peniel, he met an angel whom he wrestle with. The angel gave him a new name - Israel. (Genesis 32:22-33; I am not going to quote this whole episode, so read the relevant quote.) And the meeting with Esau went well for Jacob, and Esau returned to Seir, which was to be home for his descendants - the Edomites.



Is that not clear enough for you, that Esau didn't belong in Canaan?

Later, Jacob go back to Bethel (Genesis 35, where he had 1st had his vision of God and God's covenant, so that Jacob could built altar there.



God not only confirmed that Jacob's name would be changed to "Israel" (Genesis 35:10), but confirmed that his descendants would have Canaan (Genesis 35:12):



Do you see? God gave his promise to Abraham and to Isaac (about the land of Canaan), and now to Jacob/Israel.

Now if you have read the entire Genesis, I wouldn't even need to quote them. I am not Jewish or Christian, but even I can see it.

The land wasn't promised to the descendants of Ishmael or to the descendants of Esau.

And there are further references found in many places in the Exodus that the Israelites would eventually receive Canaan.

I have read several times ( Are you happy ? ).
I have a question : If an Edomite converts to Judaism , do you consider him as an Israelite ( Bnei Yesrael ) or seed of Ya'aquv ???!!!

 

[gnostic]

I have a question : If an Edomite converts to Judaism , do you consider him as an Israelite ( Bnei Yesrael ) or seed of Ya'aquv ???!!!

Like I've said previously to you, I'm not a Jew...or even an Israeli....So that's question is best left for those who are Jews.

I know for a fact, unlike the Christians and Muslims, don't (normally) seek out people for conversion to their religion. People are born Jewish, hence bloodline.

I think that people can become Jewish by marriage, eg. a child from a Jewish/non-Jewish couple, would make that child "Jewish"; whether the child grow up to become "Jewish" religiously, is the choose of that individual. I'm just generalising here with this example, because I really don't know, so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

My main interest in the Abrahamic religions is their creation myth. So that would include the literary side of religious faith - the stories or the narratives. My interest doesn't pertain to belief, so I'm not really interested in the faith or worship side of the scriptures.

If you visited my website Timeless Myths, you will see that I am interested in Greek and Norse myths, because I enjoy the stories or narratives. It doesn't pertain to my belief in these myths or pagan religions.

Judging from many of the posts about Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, I can see that you have the tendency to overlook the covenant that relate to the Isaac-Jacob line.

That's lazy and dishonest show of scholarship. That's why I keep bugging you about reading whole chapter(s) or all related verses, and not just one or two verses you believe in. If you only just read just one or two verse, without considering the whole passage, then the context of passage is lost, and you can twist the whole thing to your liking. Your problem and failing is that you don't want to know the whole message, just part of it. That's why know one have been successful in showing your errors, because you refuses to see, listen and understand.

I may not know customs or the fundamental of faith, belief and worship (like you or any other believers), but I do know how to read stories, and you're not reading them properly. Even if I don't believe in the stories, I still know how to read them, analyze them and form conclusion, without the excess baggage of religious preconceptions. You're trying to put Islamic interpretation into Hebrew literature, and it doesn't work (it also doesn't work using Christian interpretations too).

 

[Levite]

Like I've said previously to you, I'm not a Jew...or even an Israeli....So that's question is best left for those who are Jews.

I know for a fact, unlike the Christians and Muslims, don't (normally) seek out people for conversion to their religion. People are born Jewish, hence bloodline.

I think that people can become Jewish by marriage, eg. a child from a Jewish/non-Jewish couple, would make that child "Jewish"; whether the child grow up to become "Jewish" religiously, is the choose of that individual. I'm just generalising here with this example, because I really don't know, so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

My main interest in the Abrahamic religions is their creation myth. So that would include the literary side of religious faith - the stories or the narratives. My interest doesn't pertain to belief, so I'm not really interested in the faith or worship side of the scriptures.

If you visited my website Timeless Myths, you will see that I am interested in Greek and Norse myths, because I enjoy the stories or narratives. It doesn't pertain to my belief in these myths or pagan religions.

Judging from many of the posts about Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, I can see that you have the tendency to overlook the covenant that relate to the Isaac-Jacob line.

That's lazy and dishonest show of scholarship. That's why I keep bugging you about reading whole chapter(s) or all related verses, and not just one or two verses you believe in. If you only just read just one or two verse, without considering the whole passage, then the context of passage is lost, and you can twist the whole thing to your liking. Your problem and failing is that you don't want to know the whole message, just part of it. That's why know one have been successful in showing your errors, because you refuses to see, listen and understand.

I may not know customs or the fundamental of faith, belief and worship (like you or any other believers), but I do know how to read stories, and you're not reading them properly. Even if I don't believe in the stories, I still know how to read them, analyze them and form conclusion, without the excess baggage of religious preconceptions. You're trying to put Islamic interpretation into Hebrew literature, and it doesn't work (it also doesn't work using Christian interpretations too).

Thank you. I would frubal this if I could.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

Like I've said previously to you, I'm not a Jew...or even an Israeli....So that's question is best left for those who are Jews.

I know for a fact, unlike the Christians and Muslims, don't (normally) seek out people for conversion to their religion. People are born Jewish, hence bloodline.

I think that people can become Jewish by marriage, eg. a child from a Jewish/non-Jewish couple, would make that child "Jewish"; whether the child grow up to become "Jewish" religiously, is the choose of that individual. I'm just generalising here with this example, because I really don't know, so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

My main interest in the Abrahamic religions is their creation myth. So that would include the literary side of religious faith - the stories or the narratives. My interest doesn't pertain to belief, so I'm not really interested in the faith or worship side of the scriptures.

If you visited my website Timeless Myths, you will see that I am interested in Greek and Norse myths, because I enjoy the stories or narratives. It doesn't pertain to my belief in these myths or pagan religions.

Judging from many of the posts about Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, I can see that you have the tendency to overlook the covenant that relate to the Isaac-Jacob line.

That's lazy and dishonest show of scholarship. That's why I keep bugging you about reading whole chapter(s) or all related verses, and not just one or two verses you believe in. If you only just read just one or two verse, without considering the whole passage, then the context of passage is lost, and you can twist the whole thing to your liking. Your problem and failing is that you don't want to know the whole message, just part of it. That's why know one have been successful in showing your errors, because you refuses to see, listen and understand.

I may not know customs or the fundamental of faith, belief and worship (like you or any other believers), but I do know how to read stories, and you're not reading them properly. Even if I don't believe in the stories, I still know how to read them, analyze them and form conclusion, without the excess baggage of religious preconceptions. You're trying to put Islamic interpretation into Hebrew literature, and it doesn't work (it also doesn't work using Christian interpretations too).

I respect your way of presenting your view and I respect your politeness in responding to my comments ( not important whether I agree with you or not ).
There is a saying in Arabic I will do my best to translate it :
(( When you argue with an ignorant you will be defeated but when you argue with a wise man /educated you will defeat him )).

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

Thank you. I would frubal this if I could.

I think you are the best one who can give good answer to my question as follow:

I have a question : If an Edomite converts to Judaism , do you consider him as an Israelite ( Bnei Yesrael ) or seed of Ya'aquv ???!!!

 

[gnostic]

I have a question : If an Edomite converts to Judaism , do you consider him as an Israelite ( Bnei Yesrael ) or seed of Ya'aquv ???!!!

The way you raise the question seem to annoy the hell out of me.

I supposed if you look at it certain way, the Edomite would only be "Jewish" religiously, and not by blood. So I would suppose he would be Edomite Jew, as oppose to Israelite Jew?

The Edomite is certainly not Israelite, because he didn't come from one of the 12 tribes or the Levites.

But I don't know. You definitely would need to ask someone else about it, because I am not interested in conversion of any religion. And I don't really understand conversion in Judaism.

 

[Flankerl]

A jew is someone who was born by a jewish mother or underwent a proper giyur.

This answer wont help in any way because the person asking the question lives in an own reality.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

The way you raise the question seem to annoy the hell out of me.

I supposed if you look at it certain way, the Edomite would only be "Jewish" religiously, and not by blood. So I would suppose he would be Edomite Jew, as oppose to Israelite Jew?

The Edomite is certainly not Israelite, because he didn't come from one of the 12 tribes or the Levites.

But I don't know. You definitely would need to ask someone else about it, because I am not interested in conversion of any religion. And I don't really understand conversion in Judaism.

I like your strive , so you mean Jews are divided into three categories :
1)-Israelites : Descendants of Israel "Jacob" called : Bnei Yesrael / Children of Israel from 12 tribes (Isaacs+Israelites ).
2)-Non-Israelites : Descendants of Edomites or from other Abrahamic branches ( Isaacs or Ishmaelis but not Israelites ).
3)-Non-Israelites/Non-Isaacs / Non-Abrahamics : Descendants of Other Nations "Goyim" ( converted to Judaism forcibly or freely ).

 

[Harmonious]

I like your strive , so you mean Jews are divided into three categories :
1)-Israelites : Descendants of Israel "Jacob" called : Bnei Yesrael / Children of Israel from 12 tribes (Isaacs+Israelites ).
2)-Non-Israelites : Descendants of Edomites or from other Abrahamic branches ( Isaacs or Ishmaelis but not Israelites ).
3)-Non-Israelites/Non-Isaacs / Non-Abrahamics : Descendants of Other Nations "Goyim" ( converted to Judaism forcibly or freely ).

It sounds like YOU divided Jews into those three categories.

Jews divide ourselves thus:

If we know what tribe we are from, usually that pertains to Cohanim and Levi'im (who are definitively from the tribe of Levi) or various people who are descended from King David (who are definitively from the tribe of Judah), well and good. Although except for the Cohanim and Levi'im, who have a few different laws than other Jews, this doesn't make too much of a difference.

All other Jews, whether we know their tribe, or they don't have a tribe, they are all beloved Jews, who all share in the inheritance of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as was reaffirmed at Mount Sinai. And we are all considered equally beloved by God, no matter whether we know which tribe we're from, whether we don't know what tribe we're from, or whether we are from converts and have no particular tribe.

You know, the Book of Ruth is wonderful in describing how that might be.

And in answer to your question, if a descendant from Ishmael or Esav converted to Judaism, they would be considered as if they were actually descended from Isaac and Jacob.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aabraham ben Azar
Where and when did I say that large group of Jews not "Middle Eastern" ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aabraham ben Azar
I think 90% of present Jews are not Semitics or Isaacs or Children of Israel ( Israelites)
Why are you lying to us?
Yes 90% 0f them not descendants of Abraham .let me explain it to you :
1)- Descendants of Abraham means they are real and true children of Abraham from his own offspring ( not adopted or salved or converted Jews ).
2)-Descendants Middle Eastern Jews are not Abrahamic /not Bnei Yesshaq /not Semitic / not Bnei Yesrael , they are descendants of Ancient Egyptians,Berbers,Slaved Africans,Kurdish,Persians,Greeks,Turkic and other nations.
Please don't mix up between Bnei Avraham and Goyim converted Jews.( God blessed descendants of Abraham only )

You name every non-Semitic group and associate them with the Jewish people

But the genetic evidence absolutely proves that most Jews both from Europe and Asia are in fact..Semites. Yet you state contrary to the hard genetic evidence that they are anything but...where is your evidence?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I really don't think the OP is here to debate what is true or not.

He is solely here to propagate his racism and that is all.

Or am I being Captain Obvious?

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

A jew is someone who was born by a jewish mother or underwent a proper giyur.

This answer wont help in any way because the person asking the question lives in an own reality.

Do you consider a person who converted to Judaism forcibly or under subjection a real believer ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you feed it it will grow ...

 

[CynthiaCypher]

If you feed it it will grow ...

Maybe if we guess it's real name it will disappear...

 

[Harmonious]

Do you consider a person who converted to Judaism forcibly or under subjection a real believer ?

Hasn't happened since Herod's time, and the answer then, as now, is NO.

 

[Harmonious]

If you feed it it will grow ...

I know...