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Holy Land and the Jews

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
What it looks like is that you're trying to find a usage of the term "Jew" in the Torah. But that was a name that we took much later. At the time of the Torah, the names that we used for ourselves were primarily 'Ivrim ("Hebrews," which is what Abraham was called), and B'nai Yisrael or Am Yisrael ("Children of Israel" or "People Israel"). All of these are names we still use for ourselves today, in addition to "Jews."

And if you can't find verses in the Torah that describe God promising the land of Canaan, the land He showed to Abraham, to the descendants of Abraham, through Isaac, which are the children of Israel...then you're not looking very hard.
First of all neither Abraham,Isaac,nor Jacob were"Jews".They were not even "Israelites".They were "Hebrews", a word derived from Abraham's forefather "Eber" which is in Hebrew 3eber and in Arabic 3aber derived from the root 3BR.
Today's Jews are comprised of numerous and various peoples of all races and ethnicities e.g. Descendants of Abraham (Isaacs,Ishmaelis & other Semitics)+Other nations ( converted Jews). So you can not call yourselves descendants of Abraham or Bnei Israel .
Judaism like any other religions Christinaty or Islam as comprised various and numerous peoples from all over the world.
Can we call Muslims descendants of Abraham and seed of Yeshmael ????
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
The OP asks where in the Bible does it say the land is for the Jews, and several Jewish members have given answers. And the reality is that the Torah says the Land is for the descendants of Abraham through Isaac. God makes an eternal covenant with Abraham, and promises to eternally give him and his descendants the Land.

-Genesis 17:7-8 “I will maintain my covenant between me and you and your offspring to come as an everlasting covenant throughout the ages, to be God to you and your offspring to come. I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God."

And then in the following scripture, God specifically says He will maintain the covenant with Isaac, rather than Ishmael. He does indeed bless Ishmael, but He specifically says that the covenant shall be maintained through Isaac:

-Genesis 17: "And Abraham said to God, 'O that Ishmael might live by your favor!' God said, 'Nevertheless, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall name him Isaac, and I will maintain My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring to come. As for Ishmael, I have heeded you. I hearby bless him. I will make him fertile and exceedingly numerous. He shall be a father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation. BUT My covenant I will maintain with Isaac'"

He answers Abraham's wish to bless Ishmael BUT says the covenant will be maintained with Isaac. And Jews are descendants of Isaac. I also think its worth noting the fact that today Israel isnt a place for ONLY Jews, rather Christians, Muslims, and other religious people live there as well.
God never said the Land is for the Jews (descendants of Abraham and converted Jews)!!!! The Land is for the descendants of Abraham only
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
Re-read the scripture I gave you.. When God DEFINES the covenant with Abraham, He says 1)He will eternally be our God, 2) the entire land of Canaan will be an everlasting holding for us. Then God says He will "maintain" this covenant through Isaac - hence the promise of the land to Isaac.



This is a good question. Honestly, I know very little about the History of Israel from 1945 to the present day. Right now my main focus of study, besides school, is Torah, Talmud, Jewish Law, and other philosophical stuff. Sadly my knowledge of Israel in the past 70 years isn't that great, but it is definitely something I intend to learn more about. So as of right now, I can't really answer your question as to whether or not I think the Jews were justified in what they did in fighting for Israel, because honestly I dont really know exactly why/how/what happened.
Re-read the scripture I gave you.. When God DEFINES the covenant with Abraham, He says 1)He will eternally be our God, 2) the entire land of Canaan will be an everlasting holding for us. Then God says He will "maintain" this covenant through Isaac - hence the promise of the land to Isaac.
OK, fine , Where are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac today ???? ( some of them Jews and other converted to Christinaty and Islam), Who has more right in the land a Christian or Muslim descendant of Abraham or a converted non descendant of Abraham ??????
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
I don't see how having a single Jewish State is racist, but having dozens of countries in the world that identify themselves as Muslim states is somehow not racist. Or are you proposing that all such characterizations be eliminated from all states?

Jews are currently forbidden from entering settling in Saudi Arabia, or living outside of "foreign national" zones where non-Muslim aliens are relegated. Is that also not racist?

After the war of Israeli independence in 1948, virtually every Arab country in the Middle East drove out its Jewish population, whether they had been Zionists or not, whether they had even heard of Zionism or not. Was that also not racist?

Throwing base accusations is not particularly useful in discussions about Israel. We can all pull out occasions when the other side acted unfairly. Are we going to harp on them or move on?



"Hebrew" is an identity: it is the identity of being a Jew. Jews are Hebrews. No one else are Hebrews. The identity is at one with the religion. Abraham was the original Hebrew. Everything that God promised him, the covenant that they made together, the blessing of inheriting the land of Canaan-- all those things were passed from Abraham to his son Isaac, and by Isaac to Jacob, and by Jacob to his twelve sons, from whose households the Jewish People descend.



No. Ishmael was disinherited. God agreed, for Abraham's sake, to bless Ishmael with prosperity, and to make of him a great nation. But the covenant went to Isaac, as did the name of Hebrew.



The Jewish People never gave up their claim to the land. They were driven into exile, and were mostly unable to return until the European emancipations of the 19th century. But there was always a Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, even if small, and Jews worldwide prayed daily for over 1500 years that the day would come when we would be free to go back to our ancestral land.

The Zionists attempted to seek for Great Britain to divide the land between Jews and Arabs, as the British government had promised to do in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The British dragged their heels. The Zionists went to the newly formed UN, and asked to establish both a Jewish State and an Arab state in the territory that had been British Palestine. This partition would have greatly favored the Arabs. The Arabs rejected it. All of the attempts to divide the land peacefully had failed, the British were not allowing in enough refugees from the aftermath of the Shoah. We couldn't wait any longer. The State of Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948. On May 15, 1948, all five of the surrounding Arab nations attacked, and sought to crush the new Jewish State from existence.

Israel should not have to apologize for its existence, or for defending itself. If the Arab nations had sought a peaceful solution at the start, this could have been avoided. If they had not kept attacking Israel-- in 1948, in 1952, in 1956, in 1959, in 1962, in 1967, in 1973-- this might have been solvable earlier. If they had not turned to terrorism in the 1970s and 1980s, and again at the start of the millennium, this might have been over and done with. If the Palestinians hadn't refused a peace deal in 1999 that offered them 98.5% of all their land demands, as well as monetary reparations and aid, and instead started another intifada, this could have been over and done with. If the nations of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt had absorbed Palestinian refugees into their population, instead of forcing them to live in squalid refugee camps permanently, as an anti-Israel political and media showpiece, this could have been resolved with far less suffering.

Israel is here. It's not going anywhere. Jews have every right to live in their ancestral homeland. Arabs, who control the entire Middle East, surrounding Israel with far larger and richer Muslim nations, are going to end up carving off half of Israel to create yet another country. That's also a fait accompli. Now are we going to move forward, or stay stuck in a pointless grudge match?
The Jewish People never gave up their claim to the land
If you mean by the Jewish : descendants of Abraham , I agree with you but if you mean converted Jews from all over the world ,I will say sorry Sir, You are wrong and try to read HaTorah again .
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
Which part of what you posted earlier didn't you understand?

Just wondering? Since it's your beliefs, it's actually meaningless to the rest of the world.

I did not invent or create stories from my own imagination , if you read the Torah you will know what does the term DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM mean :( offspring)

-Genesis 17:7-8 “I will maintain my covenant between me and you and your offspring to come as an everlasting covenant throughout the ages, to be God to you and your offspring to come. I assign the land you sojourn in to you and your offspring to come, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting holding. I will be their God."



-Genesis 17: "And Abraham said to God, 'O that Ishmael might live by your favor!' God said, 'Nevertheless, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall name him Isaac, and I will maintain My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring to come. As for Ishmael, I have heeded you. I hearby bless him. I will make him fertile and exceedingly numerous. He shall be a father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation. BUT My covenant I will maintain with Isaac'"
 

beerisit

Active Member
The Jewish People never gave up their claim to the land
If you mean by the Jewish : descendants of Abraham , I agree with you but if you mean converted Jews from all over the world ,I will say sorry Sir, You are wrong and try to read HaTorah again .
Wow no muslims other than Arabs from Arabia are entitled to perform the hajj, by your reasoning. But of course that is what bigotry engenders.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Please you answer my question : Are the present Jews descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac ???

Yes, either by blood or by virtue of adoption. Both are valid.

First of all neither Abraham,Isaac,nor Jacob were"Jews".They were not even "Israelites".They were "Hebrews", a word derived from Abraham's forefather "Eber" which is in Hebrew 3eber and in Arabic 3aber derived from the root 3BR.

How many times do I have to say that Abraham was the original Hebrew, but Isaac and his household continued that name: none of Abraham's other descendants did? Jews have always been Hebrews or Israelites or Children of Israel or the People Israel, or several other Biblical names as well.

And that is a false derivation of the word 'Ivri. I have already said more than once that it doesn't stem from the name of Abraham's forefather, but from the verb 'avar, referring to Abraham's crossing of the river to leave Mesopotamia on his way to Canaan.

Today's Jews are comprised of numerous and various peoples of all races and ethnicities e.g. Descendants of Abraham (Isaacs,Ishmaelis & other Semitics)+Other nations ( converted Jews). So you can not call yourselves descendants of Abraham or Bnei Israel .

We can and we do. Perhaps you do not consider people in who convert to your religion to be adopted into the Abrahamic bloodline, but we do, and always have. You don't get to judge other religions by your own rules. That's just not how the world works.

Can we call Muslims descendants of Abraham and seed of Yeshmael ????

We have always called Arabs b'nai Yishmael (Children of Ishmael). Many of us use that term to refer to all Muslims, by grace. I see nothing wrong with it. Whether by blood or by adoption, Muslims are inheritors of Ishmael son of Abraham. It is a fine and noble lineage. It just isn't the one we believe inherited any part of God's covenant with Abraham.

If you mean by the Jewish : descendants of Abraham , I agree with you but if you mean converted Jews from all over the world ,I will say sorry Sir, You are wrong and try to read HaTorah again .

No, you are deliberately misunderstanding how Judaism and the Jewish People work. And no number of your misreadings of Torah make your reading correct, or even acceptable in any way to Jews: you are not a Jew, you have no right to interpret Torah. And putting your error into boldface doesn't make it any more correct.
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
Yes, either by blood or by virtue of adoption. Both are valid.



How many times do I have to say that Abraham was the original Hebrew, but Isaac and his household continued that name: none of Abraham's other descendants did? Jews have always been Hebrews or Israelites or Children of Israel or the People Israel, or several other Biblical names as well.

And that is a false derivation of the word 'Ivri. I have already said more than once that it doesn't stem from the name of Abraham's forefather, but from the verb 'avar, referring to Abraham's crossing of the river to leave Mesopotamia on his way to Canaan.



We can and we do. Perhaps you do not consider people in who convert to your religion to be adopted into the Abrahamic bloodline, but we do, and always have. You don't get to judge other religions by your own rules. That's just not how the world works.



We have always called Arabs b'nai Yishmael (Children of Ishmael). Many of us use that term to refer to all Muslims, by grace. I see nothing wrong with it. Whether by blood or by adoption, Muslims are inheritors of Ishmael son of Abraham. It is a fine and noble lineage. It just isn't the one we believe inherited any part of God's covenant with Abraham.



No, you are deliberately misunderstanding how Judaism and the Jewish People work. And no number of your misreadings of Torah make your reading correct, or even acceptable in any way to Jews: you are not a Jew, you have no right to interpret Torah. And putting your error into boldface doesn't make it any more correct.
Yes, either by blood or by virtue of adoption. Both are valid.
No, both of them are not valid it's against God's law , please read Genesis 15:15

Genesis 15

15After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, ‘Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.’ 2But Abram said, ‘O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?’* 3And Abram said, ‘You have given me no offspring, and so a slave born in my house is to be my heir.’ 4But the word of the Lord came to him, ‘This man shall not be your heir; no one but your very own issue shall be your heir

How many times do I have to say that Abraham was the original Hebrew

Then all his descendants were Hebrews ( Ishmael,Isaac,Zimran,Jokshan,Medan,Midian,Ishbak and Shuah)

Jews have always been Hebrews or Israelites or Children of Israel or the People Israel, or several other Biblical names as well.
Even converted Jews like Arabs"Ishmaelis" , "Berbers","African Slaves" , "Kurdish" and "Persians".!!!!!

We have always called Arabs b'nai Yishmael (Children of Ishmael). Many of us use that term to refer to all Muslims, by grace. I see nothing wrong with it. Whether by blood or by adoption, Muslims are inheritors of Ishmael son of Abraham. It is a fine and noble lineage

It's totally wrong , Islam is a religion like Judaism and Christianity comprised of various and numerous peoples and ethnicities from all over the world e.g Berbers,Malaysians,Indians,Turkish,Russians,Germen,Mongolians and Arabs.So Muslims are not descendants of Abraham and neither seed of Ishmael therefore same rule apply on Judaism and Christianity.

We can and we do. Perhaps you do not consider people in who convert to your religion to be adopted into the Abrahamic bloodline, but we do, and always have. You don't get to judge other religions by your own rules. That's just not how the world works.

Did you obtain an approval from God or Abraham to do so??
I am saying what God is saying in your holy book HaTorah , Am I wrong ??? ( If I am wrong then your God is wrong !! )...I don't invent or create rules but that what the God says in HaTorah in Genesis 15:15 (God's words)..reply to Almighty if you have better rules !!



No, you are deliberately misunderstanding how Judaism and the Jewish People work. And no number of your misreadings of Torah make your reading correct, or even acceptable in any way to Jews: you are not a Jew, you have no right to interpret Torah. And putting your error into boldface doesn't make it any more correct

I have full right to express my view as I am an Ishmaeli Arab and a descendant of Abraham so Abraham's history is mine as Isaacs and Bnei Yesrael are my real cousins , we share same forefather / history and language and so many Ishmaelis converted to Judaism and so many Isaacs converted to Christianity and Islam therefore descendants of Abraham could be found in all three religions and the Holy Land is only for them regardless of their religion or faith . Any non Abrahamic or descendants of Ishmael or Isaac have no right to speak on behave of the real heirs of Abraham.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Did you obtain an approval from God or Abraham to do so??
I am saying what God is saying in your holy book HaTorah , Am I wrong ??? ( If I am wrong then your God is wrong !! )...I don't invent or create rules but that what the God says in HaTorah in Genesis 15:15 (God's words)..reply to Almighty if you have better rules !!

Consider the possibility that you don't understand this issue as well as you think you do, and that you could be wrong while God and His Torah are still right.
 

Aabraham ben Azar

Active Member
Consider the possibility that you don't understand this issue as well as you think you do, and that you could be wrong while God and His Torah are still right.
I am with God and His Torah , Did I say something not in HaTorah ? or Did I say something differ than what God says ? ( pls. show me where ? )
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
No, both of them are not valid it's against God's law , please read Genesis 15:15

Genesis 15

15After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, ‘Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.’ 2But Abram said, ‘O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?’* 3And Abram said, ‘You have given me no offspring, and so a slave born in my house is to be my heir.’ 4But the word of the Lord came to him, ‘This man shall not be your heir; no one but your very own issue shall be your heir

A crappy English translation makes it hard for you to understand.

Here's a better one.

And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one will not inherit you, but the one who will spring from your innards-he will inherit you."


In other words, God was assuring Abraham that he would have a child, and that his child would inherit him. (and it happened that way. Issac inherited the covenant.)

It is NOT a statement saying that converts in future generations could not also be a part of the covenant.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
No, both of them are not valid it's against God's law , please read Genesis 15:15

That is simply not how we read Genesis 15. God refuses to let Abraham make Eliezer his chief heir, because Isaac is yet to come. However, there are no single chief heirs of Abraham anymore: all the Jewish people are the heirs of Abraham. And they are permitted to adopt into the bloodline.

The Rabbis of the Talmud gave us instructions on how to do this, and clarified that it made a person as Jewish as if by birth. And they had complete authority from Heaven to interpret the Torah.

Then all his descendants were Hebrews (Ishmael,Isaac,Zimran,Jokshan,Medan,Midian,Ishbak and Shuah)

Just because you think so doesn't make it so.

Even converted Jews like Arabs"Ishmaelis" , "Berbers","African Slaves" , "Kurdish" and "Persians".!!!!!

Once one converts to Judaism, it doesn't matter what one's previous affiliation or heritage was. That is superseded by one's adoption into the Jewish People.

It's totally wrong , Islam is a religion like Judaism and Christianity comprised of various and numerous peoples and ethnicities from all over the world e.g

So Muslims are not inheritors of Abraham? Is that what you're saying?


Did you obtain an approval from God or Abraham to do so??
I am saying what God is saying in your holy book HaTorah , Am I wrong ??? ( If I am wrong then your God is wrong !! )...I don't invent or create rules but that what the God says in HaTorah in Genesis 15:15 (God's words)..reply to Almighty if you have better rules !!

Of course we have the God-given authority to do so. God gave us the Torah-- both Written and Oral-- and the right to interpret it. If you knew anything about Judaism, you would know this. The fact that you, a non-Jew, want to read our Written Torah in the absence of the Oral Torah, and glean your own misunderstandings from it, doesn't lend those readings any credence at all.

I have full right to express my view as I am an Ishmaeli Arab and a descendant of Abraham...Any non Abrahamic or descendants of Ishmael or Isaac have no right to speak on behave of the real heirs of Abraham.

You have the right to express your view, because everyone should have free speech. That doesn't make your view any more correct. You know nothing about Judaism or Torah. You clearly care nothing for either. Your only interest is in your own peculiar set of beliefs. So why bother pretending that you either know or care anything about what you know nothing about? Just be honest, and say that you don't know anything about Judaism or Torah, and you don't care, because nothing it said could ever change your mind about what you believe.
 
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