Holy Land and the Jews

[Aabraham ben Azar]

A crappy English translation makes it hard for you to understand.

Here's a better one.

And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one will not inherit you, but the one who will spring from your innards-he will inherit you."

In other words, God was assuring Abraham that he would have a child, and that his child would inherit him. (and it happened that way. Issac inherited the covenant.)

It is NOT a statement saying that converts in future generations could not also be a part of the covenant.

Better to write the word offspring in Hebrew : Zer3
Descendants of Abraham means : his children and great children till judgement day ( no Slaves or Adopted child or converted Jews ), from his own body in Hebrew : meMe3ekha ( I hope it's clear by now )
If you are a descendant of Abraham from any branch, you are most well come in the Holy land but if you are not please stay in your own ancestors land and you have no one inch right in our land , land of our father Abraham/ Avraham Avinu /Abuna Ebrahim.

 

[beerisit]

Better to write the word offspring in Hebrew : Zer3
Descendants of Abraham means : his children and great children till judgement day ( no Slaves or Adopted child or converted Jews ), from his own body in Hebrew : meMe3ekha ( I hope it's clear by now )
If you are a descendant of Abraham from any branch, you are most well come in the Holy land but if you are not please stay in your own ancestors land and you have no one inch right in our land , land of our father Abraham/ Avraham Avinu /Abuna Ebrahim.

Well how funny is that in a modern world?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I recall this movie ... something about trolls playing baseball in a corn field ... and "if you feed it it will grow" or something similar.

It's not "HaTorah" but it conveys its own peculiar wisdom nonetheless.​

 

[Harmonious]

I recall this movie ... something about trolls playing baseball in a corn field ... and "if you feed it it will grow" or something similar.

It's not "HaTorah" but it conveys its own peculiar wisdom nonetheless.​

Well said.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Better to write the word offspring in Hebrew : Zer3
Descendants of Abraham means : his children and great children till judgement day ( no Slaves or Adopted child or converted Jews ), from his own body in Hebrew : meMe3ekha ( I hope it's clear by now )
If you are a descendant of Abraham from any branch, you are most well come in the Holy land but if you are not please stay in your own ancestors land and you have no one inch right in our land , land of our father Abraham/ Avraham Avinu /Abuna Ebrahim.

The verse we're talking about was very specifically talking about his own son. It wasn't a statement about future generations.

Context is important.

 

[OfniOfni]

Re-read the scripture I gave you.. When God DEFINES the covenant with Abraham, He says 1)He will eternally be our God, 2) the entire land of Canaan will be an everlasting holding for us. Then God says He will "maintain" this covenant through Isaac - hence the promise of the land to Isaac.
OK, fine , Where are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac today ???? ( some of them Jews and other converted to Christinaty and Islam), Who has more right in the land a Christian or Muslim descendant of Abraham or a converted non descendant of Abraham ??????

How can you determine who converted and who immigrated?

People convert and immigrate all the time.

People are who they choose to be.

There are millions of muslims who choose to be americans.

What is your real intent with this thread?

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

That is simply not how we read Genesis 15. God refuses to let Abraham make Eliezer his chief heir, because Isaac is yet to come. However, there are no single chief heirs of Abraham anymore: all the Jewish people are the heirs of Abraham. And they are permitted to adopt into the bloodline.

The Rabbis of the Talmud gave us instructions on how to do this, and clarified that it made a person as Jewish as if by birth. And they had complete authority from Heaven to interpret the Torah.



Just because you think so doesn't make it so.



Once one converts to Judaism, it doesn't matter what one's previous affiliation or heritage was. That is superseded by one's adoption into the Jewish People.



So Muslims are not inheritors of Abraham? Is that what you're saying?




Of course we have the God-given authority to do so. God gave us the Torah-- both Written and Oral-- and the right to interpret it. If you knew anything about Judaism, you would know this. The fact that you, a non-Jew, want to read our Written Torah in the absence of the Oral Torah, and glean your own misunderstandings from it, doesn't lend those readings any credence at all.



You have the right to express your view, because everyone should have free speech. That doesn't make your view any more correct. You know nothing about Judaism or Torah. You clearly care nothing for either. Your only interest is in your own peculiar set of beliefs. So why bother pretending that you either know or care anything about what you know nothing about? Just be honest, and say that you don't know anything about Judaism or Torah, and you don't care, because nothing it said could ever change your mind about what you believe.

That is simply not how we read Genesis 15. God refuses to let Abraham make Eliezer his chief heir, because Isaac is yet to come. However, there are no single chief heirs of Abraham anymore: all the Jewish people are the heirs of Abraham. And they are permitted to adopt into the bloodline.

It's not about how you would like to read but how God wants you to apply His rules and teachings and follow his Prophets teachings.
God showed you clearly who are the heirs (HaYorshim) ,read Genesis 15:15
Now tell me : Where did God say that all Jews are the heirs ? ( In Abraham time there were no Jews !!!! )
Did you obtain an approval from Abraham to adopt foreign child and consider him as a descendant of Abraham???? !!! ( who give this authority ? ), I am as an Ishmaeli Arab and a descendant of Abraham I don't accept any foreigner to be my cousin under any law or faith.

The Rabbis of the Talmud gave us instructions on how to do this, and clarified that it made a person as Jewish as if by birth. And they had complete authority from Heaven to interpret the Torah.
Either you follow and listen to God and His book HaTorah or Rabbis and their book HaTelmud.


Once one converts to Judaism, it doesn't matter what one's previous affiliation or heritage was. That is superseded by one's adoption into the Jewish People.
Once one converts to Judaism, it doesn't make him a descendant of Abraham and seed of Isaac or Bnei Yesrael. He remains with his nationality like a Persian Jew , Chinese Jew,Ethiopean Jew,Bukhari Jew,German Jew,Polish Jew,Russian Jew,Berberi Jew,Kurdish Jew...etc. but Isaacs Jews or Bnei Yesrael are real and true heirs of Abraham and seed of Isaac.



So Muslims are not inheritors of Abraham? Is that what you're saying?
Abraham is an spiritual father of the Abrahamic religions ( Judaism,Christianity and Islam) but not a great grand father of them by Paternal ( Abraham is forefather of Ishmaelis and Isaacs and 6 brothers from Qatourah)



Of course we have the God-given authority to do so. God gave us the Torah-- both Written and Oral-- and the right to interpret it. If you knew anything about Judaism, you would know this. The fact that you, a non-Jew, want to read our Written Torah in the absence of the Oral Torah, and glean your own misunderstandings from it, doesn't lend those readings any credence at all.

Sorry Sir, no one on earth has power to change one word of God or His orders either you obey His law or leave it ( not as per your mood or desire )

 

[Levite]

It's not about how you would like to read but how God wants you to apply His rules and teachings and follow his Prophets teachings...Either you follow and listen to God and His book HaTorah or Rabbis and their book HaTelmud.....

You really don't seem to grasp the concept that you have neither the ability or the right to interpret Jewish scripture, or to make statements about what God does or does not want from us. You just don't.

Just the same as I, not being a Muslim, have no right to interpret the Quran, or make claims about what God does or does not want from Muslims. You would be offended if I tried to do so, and you would be right to feel that way. I really am unclear why you are unable to make the connection that the reverse is equally offensive.

You cannot simultaneously use Jewish text and impute to it any kind of real authority and at the same time deny how Jews have always read the text, and how we understand that God wishes us to interpret it. Not only is doing so offensively presumptuous, it is utterly irrational.

I am done with this now, because you are clearly utterly unwilling to listen to anything outside your own experience, and utterly bent upon your own supremacist position. I've made it clear why what you've said is unacceptable: that is enough of my time wasted on you.

 

[Harmonious]

How can you determine who converted and who immigrated?

People convert and immigrate all the time.

People are who they choose to be.

There are millions of muslims who choose to be americans.

What is your real intent with this thread?

In a different thread, someone made an off-handed comment that Jews were descended from Canaanites. Aabraham jumped on this like white on rice, and tried to use this as proof that the Jews have no right to the Land of Israel, as only descendants of Abraham can inherit the Land.

I made a statement that all Jews are considered descened from Abraham. Aabraham asked if I could prove it. I asked him if he could prove that Jews weren't.

Since this discussion was taking the other thread too far afield, he started this thread to continue his challenge.

 

[InChrist]

And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am the LORD.’” Exodus 6:8


See, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to your fathers—to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—to give to them and their descendants after them.’ Deuteronomy 1;8


So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. Joshua 21:43

 

[punkdbass]

OK, fine , Where are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac today ???? ( some of them Jews and other converted to Christinaty and Islam), Who has more right in the land a Christian or Muslim descendant of Abraham or a converted non descendant of Abraham ??????[/FONT][/SIZE]

Sweet, so you agree that the Land was only given to Abraham through the line of Isaac. Were making some progress here.

Jewish Law states that a convert and a Jewish person by blood are 100% equal. You can disagree if you want but like Levite said, this is how Judaism works, and its slightly offensive for you to say we are wrong when you would certainly be offended if we tried interpreting the Quran and telling Muslims they are wrong with their theological beliefs.

As for your above question, I would say God made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants through Isaac to give them the Land. Christians and Muslims don't follow this particular covenant obviously(Christians dont follow the Mosaic Law, Muslims are from Ishmael's line), so why should we expect the Bible to say the land is theirs?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... God made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants through Isaac to give them the Land.

That's certainly the story.

 

[Flankerl]

I think this is quite fun. He reads a jewish holy book, within the book he finds several stories about jews and then is like "nah it cant be about them, its about the true descendents of abraham.... LIKE ME!".

opcorn:

 

[punkdbass]

That's certainly the story.

yep. Im diggin your new avatar by the way lol

 

[Caladan]

Can any one helps me to provide an evidence or verses from the Holy Book ( OT ) or HaTorah that God says the land is for the Jews ?
Thanks in advance.

**MOD POST**​

This topic has the potential of getting charged rather quickly. Please keep it civil.​

(OP edited by staff)

If you don't consider Jews to be related to ancient Israelites then your question is utterly meaningless.
In order to help you with making the historical connection perhaps it is better if you understand that the term Jew originated in the context of a member of the tribe of Judah or from the kingdom of Judah. The Biblical Judah was the son of Jacob who was Israel and patriarch of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Caladan]

I think saying that Israel should only be for Jewish is racist?

Israel has many Arab residents who were given citizenship by the state of Israel when it was formed, so it's not 'only for the Jews'.
Furthermore there are over 20 Arab states for the Arabs and over 50 Muslims states for Muslims, is that racist as well?

 

[Harmonious]

Please you answer my question : Are the present Jews descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac ???

Mostly.

 

[Shermana]

How about the fact that the PA plans to kick out all Jews if it gets a Palestinian state? Not racist?

 

[Caladan]

Are the present Jews descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac ???

Maybe you should run genetic tests. When you find the archaeological remains of Abraham or Isaac do let the rest of us know.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

Maybe you should run genetic tests. When you find the archaeological remains of Abraham or Isaac do let the rest of us know.

Ask Gadol 7akham Ishaq al Sulaimani about it and you will be shocked !!
( google for Ishaq Al-Sulaimani )