Holy Land and the Jews

[F0uad]

Ok i am sorry i went off topic but i just wanted to ask the question if it was justified according to the scriptures Frankerl seems to agree that the Torah justifies the conquer of the country after 45.

Yes i find it racist from all Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Secularist countries to oppress and not let people live in harmony. Israel, Saudi-Arabia any country in the world was not made for a specific race or religion but to live in harmony with one and other how can we claim a land when its God's land and creation. If a Majority in that country is Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Atheist they all have to accept one and other i don't belief in Nationalism or dividing people.

Jews mostly lived in peace during ''Islamic rule'' in Palestine so ask yourself why cannot the ''Jewish/Secular rule'' provide the same for the Muslims in Israel.

Now back to my real question is there any ''justifying'' the conquering in 48 with scripture and if so isn't that book violent.. I mean actually ''justifying'' killings and conquering countries in the present time?

 

[Harmonious]

Ok i am sorry i went off topic but i just wanted to ask the question if it was justified according to the scriptures Frankerl seems to agree that the Torah justifies the conquer of the country after 45.

Yes i find it racist from all Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Secularist countries to oppress and not let people live in harmony. Israel, Saudi-Arabia any country in the world was not made for a specific race or religion but to live in harmony with one and other how can we claim a land when its God's land and creation. If a Majority in that country is Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Atheist they all have to accept one and other i don't belief in Nationalism or dividing people.

Jews mostly lived in peace during ''Islamic rule'' in Palestine so ask yourself why cannot the ''Jewish/Secular rule'' provide the same for the Muslims in Israel.

Now back to my real question is there any ''justifying'' the conquering in 48 with scripture and if so isn't that book violent.. I mean actually ''justifying'' killings and conquering countries in the present time?

If I've learned anything about the war in 1948, it was vicious from EVERY side. And the British were no help at all. They made promises about the same piece of land to the Arabs, to the Jews, and to the French. (!)

You could say it was a defensive war. An interesting read which takes just about every perspective for a while is "O Jerusalem!" by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre.

There was a lot of blame to go around.

I wouldn't say that it was a God-commanded war of conquest, but rather a war to not allow vicious murder anymore. While there has been evil atrocities all around, I would say that the 1929 Massacre of the Jews of Hebron wasn't a sterling moment for the Arab neighbors of the Jews.

In an effort to disallow that type of thing from happening again, war might have been considered necessary. There was nothing like the decree from God to destroy or exile the Canaanite nations. From the Jews' perspective, it was a war until the Arabs gave the Jews a break.

 

[F0uad]

If I've learned anything about the war in 1948, it was vicious from EVERY side. And the British were no help at all. They made promises about the same piece of land to the Arabs, to the Jews, and to the French. (!)

You could say it was a defensive war. An interesting read which takes just about every perspective for a while is "O Jerusalem!" by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre.

There was a lot of blame to go around.

I wouldn't say that it was a God-commanded war of conquest, but rather a war to not allow vicious murder anymore. While there has been evil atrocities all around, I would say that the 1929 Massacre of the Jews of Hebron wasn't a sterling moment for the Arab neighbors of the Jews.

In an effort to disallow that type of thing from happening again, war might have been considered necessary. There was nothing like the decree from God to destroy or exile the Canaanite nations. From the Jews' perspective, it was a war until the Arabs gave the Jews a break.

Do you mean this?

The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of the British Mandate of Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs[1] in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places. This massacre, together with that of Safed, sent shock waves through Jewish communities in Palestine and across the world.
During the massacre, 67 Jews were killed and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked; nineteen local Arab families saved 435 Jews by hiding them in their houses at great risk to themselves.[2][3] The survivors were evacuated from Hebron by the British authorities. Many returned in 1931, but almost all left again during 1936–1939.[4] It also led to the re-organization and development of the Jewish paramilitary organization, the Haganah, which later became the nucleus of the Israel Defense Forces.


Source


If you scroll down to Background you can see the main reasons. Anyway i agree that it was viscous by all sides and thanks for not agreeing that its ''justified'' anyway Canaan's are not Palestinians he

 

[Harmonious]

Do you mean this?

The Hebron massacre refers to the killing of sixty-seven Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of the British Mandate of Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were massacring Arabs[1] in Jerusalem and seizing control of Muslim holy places. This massacre, together with that of Safed, sent shock waves through Jewish communities in Palestine and across the world.
During the massacre, 67 Jews were killed and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked; nineteen local Arab families saved 435 Jews by hiding them in their houses at great risk to themselves.[2][3] The survivors were evacuated from Hebron by the British authorities. Many returned in 1931, but almost all left again during 1936–1939.[4] It also led to the re-organization and development of the Jewish paramilitary organization, the Haganah, which later became the nucleus of the Israel Defense Forces.


Source


If you scroll down to Background you can see the main reasons. Anyway i agree that it was viscous by all sides and thanks for not agreeing that its ''justified'' anyway Canaan's are not Palestinians he

You're welcome. I think.

 

[F0uad]

You're welcome. I think.

Hehe i meant it serious because i see ''Some'' Jewish people justifying these things with there scripture of what happened in the past decades. And then i am like Is your religion really telling you to do so?

 

[cablescavenger]

It is irrelevant what people believe. This is a legal matter.

 

[F0uad]

It is irrelevant what people believe. This is a legal matter.

That was the case i was pointing out in my previous message's its good you agree.

 

[tumbleweed41]

MOD POST

Some members may notice the deletion of their posts. This was done as a thread cleanup to remove references to a deleted Rule 1 violation.
​

 

[gnostic]

To aabraham ben azar:

I am going on, by "Jews" as being "Israelites", the descendants of Jacob (Israel). Whether you accept that all Jews are Israelites, I care not.

And before I begin. I like to go on record that I am neither Christian nor Jew. I am not an Israeli or Zionist, so please don't tell me that I am being biased because of race or ethnic or religion. I'm agnostic and an Australian (with CHINESE background). You have ask for sources so I am going to present to you the relevant passages and my interpretation of what was written in the Genesis, with regards to the COVENANT made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about the promised land to the descendants of 3 patriarchs.

To understand about the land that were promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, you do need to read the covenants in the Genesis and the Exodus. If you don't then you won't have the whole picture of what the covenant (of the promised land) were given to the descendants of Jacob.

It is quite clear that god was giving the land (of Canaan) to the descendants of Israel. Israel was another name for Jacob (Genesis 32:28, and again at Bethlel Genesis 35:10), which Jacob earned from god, just as Abraham's name was changed from Abram to Abraham.


Abraham & Isaac:

When Abraham 1st came to Canaan, he stopped by the Tree of Moreh at Shechem and god said:

The Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

Although this verse specify which offspring, which at the time he had none. It was the same with the next chapter, but it was more specific with what "land" would be given to his offspring: Canaan.

[14] The Lord said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. [15] All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. [16] I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. [17] Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you."

That was god's covenant to Abraham: the land of Canaan.

This repeat in the chapter 17, which concern not only the covenant of circumcision, but the covenant of Canaan.

"...I will establish my covenant as an EVERLASTING COVENANT between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. [8] The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

We all know Abraham had a number of sons, but it was ONE son (of Abraham) that god would confirm this covenant with which son in the verses in chapter 17. And it would not be the son of Hagar nor the sons of Keturah. Abraham send all his sons away from Canaan, so it was clear who would get this everlasting covenant. And this son was reveal here in the following verses:

[15] God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. [16] I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

[19] Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an EVERLASTING COVENANT for his descendants after him. [20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. [21] But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

As you can see here, Isaac was the one to receive this EVERLASTING COVENANT (meaning the promised land - CANAAN). It is clear which OFFSPRING is meant here, in verses 17:15-16, 17:19 & 17:20 (as listed in the 2 quotes above). Ishmael would not get this covenant for this land.

From the way I understand the Genesis, a covenant is far more important than a blessing. It is a special promise or special arrangement between god and those god chooses.

And you do understand the word "everlasting", don't you aabraham?

If the everlasting covenant were given to the line of Abraham-Isaac-Jacob, who are you to question God?

After Isaac's birth and been weaned, Sarah demanded that Hagar and Ishmael to be sent away (Genesis 21:8-21), and god apparently agreed that Ishmael and his future descendants were not part of Abraham's covenant. Abraham himself banished Hagar and Ishmael from Canaan. Nothing in God's blessing that the Ishmaelites or Arabs will take the land of Canaan away from the Israelites. And nothing in the blessing to Ishmael even remotely suggest that there would be a prophet in Ishmael's line...well, not without doing mental contortions to Ishmael's blessing.

But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. [13] I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."

And Abraham sent away his other sons from Canaan, before his death:

[5] Abraham left everything he owned to Isaac. [6] But while he was still living, he gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them away from his son Isaac to the land of the east.

This covenant is confirmed later, when god appeared to Isaac in chapter 26.

That night the Lord appeared to him and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of my servant Abraham."

If you are not convince, then you should read about Jacob.


Jacob:

At Bethel, Jacob had a vision (Genesis 28:10-15), in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham and Isaac, and now with Jacob.

That night the Lord appeared to him and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of my servant Abraham."

When Jacob returned to Canaan, the covenant with Abraham and Isaac, was renewed with Jacob at Bethel:

And God said to him, "I am God Almighty[f]; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. 12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you. "

As you can see, the land (Canaan) is supposed to belong to Jacob's descendants.

Although Esau was also a son of Isaac and the elder twin of Jacob, but like Ishmael, Esau was also EXCLUDED from the covenant.

And in the Exodus and other books, Moses established the Torah, another covenant, which was meant for the Israelites. It wasn't until after Moses' death, that the Israelites set foot on Canaan, once again, under the leadership of Joshua.

It was Moses who created the new religion, with this Torah. Even though Judaism was never named, this was the religion which Moses created, for the Israelites, hence Jews.

And going by the Torah, the land was not meant for Arabs, Palestinians or Muslims. That's what it say. If you disagree, then that's your problem.

But knowing some Muslims in this forum, I just know that you and other Muslims are going to typically and completely ignore what I have quoted, even you did ask for sources. Some Muslims have the tendency of ignoring the Hebrew scriptures, even when they ask for it, and you are no exception (from my past experience with you in other threads.)

 

[Levite]

Gnostic- it's a lost cause, brah. Spare your fingers from the typing. Lord knows you made a great try, as did some others in this thread. But there's nothing that can break into that closed mind....

 

[Flankerl]

Ok i am sorry i went off topic but i just wanted to ask the question if it was justified according to the scriptures Frankerl seems to agree that the Torah justifies the conquer of the country after 45.

Interesting, where did I write that?
I answered your question regarding ancient Israel, if you want to draw a comparison to today then thats your decision.

Yes i find it racist from all Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Secularist countries to oppress and not let people live in harmony. Israel, Saudi-Arabia any country in the world was not made for a specific race or religion but to live in harmony with one and other how can we claim a land when its God's land and creation. If a Majority in that country is Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Atheist they all have to accept one and other i don't belief in Nationalism or dividing people.

Thats all fine but the world doesnt work that way.

Jews mostly lived in peace during ''Islamic rule'' in Palestine so ask yourself why cannot the ''Jewish/Secular rule'' provide the same for the Muslims in Israel.

While there are certainly some problems with the Israeli Arabs they still got it far better than any other arab in any arab country.
Muslims are also free to worship their god in Israel.
You are also lucky that you wrote "mostly in peace".

Now back to my real question is there any ''justifying'' the conquering in 48 with scripture and if so isn't that book violent.. I mean actually ''justifying'' killings and conquering countries in the present time?

I fail to see the connection. Israel was attacked one day after its creation by its neighbouring countries.
What did you expect the Israeli leaders to do. Not to take any land and wait for another round with the arabs?

If you scroll down to Background you can see the main reasons.

Yeah you should read that too.

Inflammatory articles calculated to incite disorder appeared in the Arab media and one flyer, signed by "the Committee of the Holy Warriors in Palestine" stated that the Jews had violated the honor of Islam, and declared: "Hearts are in tumult because of these barbaric deeds, and the people began to break out in shouts of 'war, Jihad ... rebellion.' ... O Arab nation, the eyes of your brothers in Palestine are upon you ... and they awaken your religious feelings and national zealotry to rise up against the enemy who violated the honor of Islam and raped the women and murdered widows and babies."[14][15][5] The riots continued, and the next day a young Sephardic Jew was stabbed in the Bukharan Quarter, and died the following day.

The following Friday, 23 August, inflamed by rumors that Jews were planning to attack al-Aqsa Mosque, Arabs started to attack Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem. The rumors and subsequent violence quickly spread to other parts of Palestine, with the murders occurring in Hebron and Safed. Other assaults took place in Motza, Kfar Uriyah, and Tel Aviv.

Rumor
Noun

rumor (countable and uncountable; plural rumors)
(countable) A statement or claim of questionable accuracy, from no known reliable source, usually spread by word of mouth.
There's a rumor going round that he's going to get married.
(uncountable) Information or misinformation of the kind contained in such claims.
They say he used to be a thief, but that's just rumor.

Synonyms
(piece of information):
(information): gossip, hearsay, talk, tittle-tattle

 

[gnostic]

Gnostic- it's a lost cause, brah. Spare your fingers from the typing. Lord knows you made a great try, as did some others in this thread. But there's nothing that can break into that closed mind....

He ask for sources from the Torah and people respond and give it to him, and he reject them out of hand, would suggest that he has no interests in any source in the 1st place.

 

[waitasec]

looking at this from an outside perspective...


"it's mine"
"no, it's mine"
"well, you're wrong"
"no i'm not"
"yes you are"
"prove it"
"god said so"
"oh, in that case..."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

looking at this from an outside perspective...


"it's mine"
"no, it's mine"
"well, you're wrong"
"no i'm not"
"yes you are"
"prove it"
"god said so"
"oh, in that case..."

Sadly, there's more than a little truth here ...

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

To aabraham ben azar:

I am going on, by "Jews" as being "Israelites", the descendants of Jacob (Israel). Whether you accept that all Jews are Israelites, I care not.

And before I begin. I like to go on record that I am neither Christian nor Jew. I am not an Israeli or Zionist, so please don't tell me that I am being biased because of race or ethnic or religion. I'm agnostic and an Australian (with CHINESE background). You have ask for sources so I am going to present to you the relevant passages and my interpretation of what was written in the Genesis, with regards to the COVENANT made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob about the promised land to the descendants of 3 patriarchs.

To understand about the land that were promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, you do need to read the covenants in the Genesis and the Exodus. If you don't then you won't have the whole picture of what the covenant (of the promised land) were given to the descendants of Jacob.

It is quite clear that god was giving the land (of Canaan) to the descendants of Israel. Israel was another name for Jacob (Genesis 32:28, and again at Bethlel Genesis 35:10), which Jacob earned from god, just as Abraham's name was changed from Abram to Abraham.


Abraham & Isaac:

When Abraham 1st came to Canaan, he stopped by the Tree of Moreh at Shechem and god said:



Although this verse specify which offspring, which at the time he had none. It was the same with the next chapter, but it was more specific with what "land" would be given to his offspring: Canaan.



That was god's covenant to Abraham: the land of Canaan.

This repeat in the chapter 17, which concern not only the covenant of circumcision, but the covenant of Canaan.



We all know Abraham had a number of sons, but it was ONE son (of Abraham) that god would confirm this covenant with which son in the verses in chapter 17. And it would not be the son of Hagar nor the sons of Keturah. Abraham send all his sons away from Canaan, so it was clear who would get this everlasting covenant. And this son was reveal here in the following verses:





As you can see here, Isaac was the one to receive this EVERLASTING COVENANT (meaning the promised land - CANAAN). It is clear which OFFSPRING is meant here, in verses 17:15-16, 17:19 & 17:20 (as listed in the 2 quotes above). Ishmael would not get this covenant for this land.

From the way I understand the Genesis, a covenant is far more important than a blessing. It is a special promise or special arrangement between god and those god chooses.

And you do understand the word "everlasting", don't you aabraham?

If the everlasting covenant were given to the line of Abraham-Isaac-Jacob, who are you to question God?

After Isaac's birth and been weaned, Sarah demanded that Hagar and Ishmael to be sent away (Genesis 21:8-21), and god apparently agreed that Ishmael and his future descendants were not part of Abraham's covenant. Abraham himself banished Hagar and Ishmael from Canaan. Nothing in God's blessing that the Ishmaelites or Arabs will take the land of Canaan away from the Israelites. And nothing in the blessing to Ishmael even remotely suggest that there would be a prophet in Ishmael's line...well, not without doing mental contortions to Ishmael's blessing.



And Abraham sent away his other sons from Canaan, before his death:



This covenant is confirmed later, when god appeared to Isaac in chapter 26.




If you are not convince, then you should read about Jacob.


Jacob:

At Bethel, Jacob had a vision (Genesis 28:10-15), in which God confirmed the covenant of Abraham and Isaac, and now with Jacob.



When Jacob returned to Canaan, the covenant with Abraham and Isaac, was renewed with Jacob at Bethel:



As you can see, the land (Canaan) is supposed to belong to Jacob's descendants.

Although Esau was also a son of Isaac and the elder twin of Jacob, but like Ishmael, Esau was also EXCLUDED from the covenant.

And in the Exodus and other books, Moses established the Torah, another covenant, which was meant for the Israelites. It wasn't until after Moses' death, that the Israelites set foot on Canaan, once again, under the leadership of Joshua.

It was Moses who created the new religion, with this Torah. Even though Judaism was never named, this was the religion which Moses created, for the Israelites, hence Jews.

And going by the Torah, the land was not meant for Arabs, Palestinians or Muslims. That's what it say. If you disagree, then that's your problem.

But knowing some Muslims in this forum, I just know that you and other Muslims are going to typically and completely ignore what I have quoted, even you did ask for sources. Some Muslims have the tendency of ignoring the Hebrew scriptures, even when they ask for it, and you are no exception (from my past experience with you in other threads.)

I am so surprised that you gnostic with a chinese background teaching me my own history , history of my ancestors Abraham,Ishmael,Isaac and Jacob !!( thank you ).
I think you misunderstood my message , it is very simple,clear and straightforward details in brief as follow :
1)- Not all today's Arabs are Ishmaelis or Semitics or descendants of Abraham ( Paternal).
1)- Not all today's Jews are Isaacs or Semitics or descendants of Abraham (Paternal).
So the Holy Land belongs to the real heirs of Abraham from his own offspring in Hebrew and Arabic : ZR3
If you read HaTorah you will notice that God never mentioned Arabs or Hebrews but descendants of Abraham .( sorry I am unable to make it simpler or clearer than that )
Next post I will teach you the Chinese history

 

[OfniOfni]

I am so surprised that you gnostic with a chinese background teaching me my own history , history of my ancestors Abraham,Ishmael,Isaac and Jacob !!( thank you ).
I think you misunderstood my message , it is very simple,clear and straightforward details in brief as follow :
1)- Not all today's Arabs are Ishmaelis or Semitics or descendants of Abraham ( Paternal).
1)- Not all today's Jews are Isaacs or Semitics or descendants of Abraham (Paternal).
So the Holy Land belongs to the real heirs of Abraham from his own offspring in Hebrew and Arabic : ZR3
If you read HaTorah you will notice that God never mentioned Arabs or Hebrews but descendants of Abraham .( sorry I am unable to make it simpler or clearer than that )
Next post I will teach you the Chinese history

In other word you say that the holy land belongs to both jews and muslims.
That makes perfect sense to me.
But what about abrahams other sons? Don't their descendants also have a claim to the land?

 

[punkdbass]

I am so surprised that you gnostic with a chinese background teaching me my own history , history of my ancestors Abraham,Ishmael,Isaac and Jacob !!( thank you ).
I think you misunderstood my message , it is very simple,clear and straightforward details in brief as follow :
1)- Not all today's Arabs are Ishmaelis or Semitics or descendants of Abraham ( Paternal).
1)- Not all today's Jews are Isaacs or Semitics or descendants of Abraham (Paternal).
So the Holy Land belongs to the real heirs of Abraham from his own offspring in Hebrew and Arabic : ZR3
If you read HaTorah you will notice that God never mentioned Arabs or Hebrews but descendants of Abraham .( sorry I am unable to make it simpler or clearer than that )
Next post I will teach you the Chinese history

Honestly, I would have to agree with you IF, and ONLY IF, Christians and Muslims followed the covenant God made with Abraham(through Isaac), and all of the requirements it entailed. But the reality of the matter is Christians follow a completely different, "New" covenant, and although I don't know a whole lot about Islam, but I know that whatever "covenant" they claim to have with God comes through Ishmael and not Isaac. Of course you are correct that there are Muslims that, in theory, are true descendants of Isaac. But the fact of the matter, is that those Muslims follow the "covenant" God made with Ishmael, and do not adhere to all of the requirements of the covenant with Isaac, such as all of the Written and Oral Mosaic teachings.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

OfniOfni
Title:BANNED

Quote:

In other word you say that the holy land belongs to both jews and muslims.
That makes perfect sense to me.
But what about abrahams other sons? Don't their descendants also have a claim to the land?



punkdbass
Religion: Jewish
Title:Sophmore Member

Quote:

Honestly, I would have to agree with you IF, and ONLY IF, Christians and Muslims followed the covenant God made with Abraham(through Isaac), and all of the requirements it entailed. But the reality of the matter is Christians follow a completely different, "New" covenant, and although I don't know a whole lot about Islam, but I know that whatever "covenant" they claim to have with God comes through Ishmael and not Isaac. Of course you are correct that there are Muslims that, in theory, are true descendants of Isaac. But the fact of the matter, is that those Muslims follow the "covenant" God made with Ishmael, and do not adhere to all of the requirements of the covenant with Isaac, such as all of the Written and Oral Mosaic teachings.

You both OfniOfni & punkdbass have problem with the terms Arab,Muslim,Jews,descendants of Abraham because you are unable to distinguish between them.
I am going to repeat the case again for the third time after 3000 :
Present Arabs : comprised of various and numerous races and ethnicities .
Present Jews : comprised of various and numerous races and ethnicities.
Descendants of Abraham : They follow various religions like Judaism,Christianity and Islam ( of course some of them non believers or follow other faiths ).
So Ishmaelis & Isaacs spread all over the world and follow various faiths.You can find Ishmaelis amongst today's Jews as well as Isaacs amongst today's Arabs.(But the Funny thing is that Ishmaeli Jews hate and fight Isaac Arabs in the Holy Land ).
Conclusion :
Judaism,Christianity and Islam :are religions comprised of various races and ethnicities like:
Ishmaelis,Isaacs,Kurdish,Persians,Indians,Mongolians,Chinese,Khazaris,Berbers,Somalies,Korians,Bangladishis,South Africans,Eskimos and Red Indians.

I hope this time my simple explanations will work & function properly by help of God/Elohim/Allah/Allaha

 

[punkdbass]

I understand what you are saying. But you ignored the point I made. Do Christians and Muslims follow all of the requirements of the covenant God made with Isaac? Do they follow Mosaic Law - both the Written and Oral teachings?

The answer is no. Both Christians and Muslims do not follow the specific covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, rather they have completely different and unique relationships with God.

 

[gnostic]

I am so surprised that you gnostic with a chinese background teaching me my own history , history of my ancestors Abraham,Ishmael,Isaac and Jacob !!( thank you ).

I wrote that I'm AGNOSTIC, not gnostic (which is my avatar's nickname), you're lazy SOB! Can't you bl00dy read?

I think you misunderstood my message , it is very simple,clear and straightforward details in brief as follow :
1)- Not all today's Arabs are Ishmaelis or Semitics or descendants of Abraham ( Paternal).
1)- Not all today's Jews are Isaacs or Semitics or descendants of Abraham (Paternal).
So the Holy Land belongs to the real heirs of Abraham from his own offspring in Hebrew and Arabic : ZR3
If you read HaTorah you will notice that God never mentioned Arabs or Hebrews but descendants of Abraham .( sorry I am unable to make it simpler or clearer than that )

, :no:, aabraham. I've read and understood you quite well.

The problem is that you are selective reading the verses you want to use, and not the whole narratives of Genesis (as well as from Exodus to Joshua, hence the plural "s" at the end of narrative.

This selective readings of yours is -

• either (a) you don't get the whole picture, hence the reason why I called you "lazy",
• or (b) you're deliberately choosing to ignore the relevant texts for your own agenda (hence propaganda), because you don't want to get the whole picture. This would mean you're lying through "omissions".

I would like to say you fall under category "a", but like I said, I've read all your posts here, and because you're promoting Muslims claims to the land, this actually put you under the "b" camp.

You deliberately chose to ignore many verses and points that I've raised:
Ishmael was not part of the COVENANT that god made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob WITH REGARDS to the land promised (Canaan).

The only covenant is that Ishmael had was the covenant of circumcision, as did, Abraham's other sons. This covenant had nothing to do with the land of Canaan.

Abraham ordered Hagar to leave Canaan with their son (Ishmael), because Isaac was heir to the everlasting covenant, not Ishmael nor the sons of Keturah.

Nowhere in Ishmael's blessing did god promised Canaan. That covenant was reserved for descendants of Jacob's sons - the ancestors of 12 tribes. The only things the blessing say about Ishmael are -

• (a) populous (Genesis 17:20 (NIV)
• I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.),
• (b) that Ishmael's 12 sons would be the ancestors of the 12 tribes of the Ishmaelites (Genesis 17:20 (NIV) He will be the father of twelve rulers,). This is made abundantly clear when the Genesis listed Ishmael's 12 sons (Genesis 25:12-19, READ THESE VERSES).

Also, When Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt (Exodus) and Joshua led them into Canaan, the Ishmaelites were not part of it.

The Ishmaelites were also not part of the new covenant that god made with Israel, which was the receiving of the Torah (law) and the 10 commandments.

All the verses I have quoted back in post 69, but which you have chosen to deliberately ignore, made it quite clear and straightforward that Ishmael, the Ishmaelites and Muslims have no part of the promise to that land.