Holy Land and the Jews

[Aabraham ben Azar]

i presented you with clear scientific evidence, Cohen genetic markers are present in both Jews from all over the world and the Samaritans, who have always been from Israel.

The presence of the Cohen haplotype within the Samaritan line screws your Ishaq Al Sulaimani's little non-scientific theory up.

Try not to be emotional / irrational and do your best to increase your rational part of you

 

[JacobEzra.]

Ani meessta3er means I am sorry ( right or wrong ? ) and 3 for letter Ayen like in 3ivrit or Ha3ulam (the world ), I think you are a european Jew !
Jew in my own dictionary is the follower of Judaism religion whether he is a descendant of Abraham or converted Chinese or Korean or Berber or Arab"Ishmaelite".

You're the first I have ever seen to transliterate in such a way for Hebrew. usually the 3 is seen in Arabic.

And what makes you think I am a "European Jew"?

Anyway, back to the subject of my responses to you. If Jews are not semitic, even then Arab ones, than maybe I should just ask, what is considered Semitic?

 

[Caladan]

Where and when did I say that large group of Jews not "Middle Eastern" ??
For your information that Yemenite Jews are comprised of Bnei Yesrael 50% and Bnei Yeshmael 50% = Yemenite Jews ( middle eastern) , they are real and true descendants of Abraham (pure Semitic & Abrahamic).

So what are you arguing about? there are dozens of Arab/Muslim countries in the middle east, and a Jewish country. Maybe in the future there will be another Arab state of Palestine exiting next to the Israeli Jewish state.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Lets try to forget the thing about Arabs and Jews lets try to concentrate on the scripture.. ''If possible''

The premise of your question makes it impossible... because you're asking for scripture to justify the 48 conquest of Palestine, when nobody you're asking believes that the establishment of the State of Israel was a matter of Jewish conquerors.

If you're asking for scripture that says it's ok to defend yourself if you're attacked, which is what the Jews did in 48... I'm sure someone can find something for you.

 

[Flankerl]

So let me ask again and please stay on topic next time. Do you belief that conquering the land after 45 when ''Palestinians/Arabs'' where in control is justified by scriptural text and if it is, isn't it a violent script if it says so?

So what if its violent? Should we discuss the spread of Islam? Fun peaceful times werent they?
And so what if a few thousand jews think that its wrong that Israel exist? They are nutjobs who celebrate the death of fellow jews.
And so what if some religious nutjobs think that they can draw a god given right from an old text to current political situations?

Seriously who cares? Israel is a secular country based upon secular law.

and what about the other 61millions who died in WW2 why don't they get a piece of land?

The russians had russia.
The ukrainians had ukraine.
The polish had poland.
The french had france.
...

I do agree that the ''British'' had many things to say in the country but the land still belonged to the people who lived there (Arabs & Jews) we know that the Majority was Arab yet the most was taken over and given to Jews..

Do you even know the details of the seperation of the territory?
At first you got the mandate of palestine. This was the territory of jordan(transjordan) and Israel and the disputed territories(both were cisjordan).

The original plan had the idea that ALL of the mandate should go to the jews.
Then this was altered. The british forbid jews to cross the jordan river and they created Transjordan.
Now only Cisjordan remained for the future country. But no consent could be found even though the Peel Commission made a really generous proposal. But the arabs turned it down.
And then Cisjordan got divided by two. You may think that this was unfair but remember that most of the new state of Israel was the negev desert. And back then there was no technology to build cities there.

But as we know the arabs turned this seperation down and attacked the new state of Israel.
With the foundation of this new country antijewish sentiments rose and the so called jewish nakba began. During 20 years over 750000 had to flee their homes in the muslim countries. Never wondered why there are just a few thousand jews left in the muslim countries?
And guess what those refugees got integrated into Israel. There are no refugee camps in Israel.(though i dont know if the people who lived in Gaza still live in provisional homes)

Anyway we know that after 48 the real expenditure began Palestinians had no army in that time Egypt and Jordan had to involve to at-least have some land left for the Palestine's,

Is this supposed to be a joke? The arab countries attacked. Basically all arab countries sent soldiers if not armies to fight against Israel.
Oh yeah the glorious arab armies had to secure land for the palestinians(who didnt call themselve palestinians back then) in a war they started to destroy the jewish country.

Ridiculous.



And yes iam making this about history and not scripture because i cant stand such obvious twisted history.

 

[Moshe]

the story of Abraham begins when Gd tells him to leave his homeland, promising him and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson (son of Isaac . Father of twelve sons, who represent the tribes of judaism. one of the three patriarchs of Judaism.), whose descendants are the Jewish people. so the land is often referred to as the promised Land because of Gd's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.

 

[F0uad]

the story of Abraham begins when Gd tells him to leave his homeland, promising him and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson (son of Isaac . Father of twelve sons, who represent the tribes of judaism. one of the three patriarchs of Judaism.), whose descendants are the Jewish people. so the land is often referred to as the promised Land because of Gd's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who doesn't get emotional and thinks i am attacking Israel's existence.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

the story of Abraham begins when Gd tells him to leave his homeland, promising him and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson (son of Isaac . Father of twelve sons, who represent the tribes of judaism. one of the three patriarchs of Judaism.), whose descendants are the Jewish people. so the land is often referred to as the promised Land because of Gd's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.

Who are the descendants of Abraham at present ?
The Jewish people at present is comprised of numerous and various peoples , races and ethnicities ( Greek Salad ) e.g Berbers,Ethiopians,Ancient Egyptians,Ugandans,Indians,Chinese,Mongolians,Khazars,Persians,Kurdish,Arabs,Eskomos,Koreans,Bukharis,Red Indians...etc !!!
So did God promised to give the Holy Land to Berbers and Chinese ????

 

[F0uad]

The premise of your question makes it impossible... because you're asking for scripture to justify the 48 conquest of Palestine, when nobody you're asking believes that the establishment of the State of Israel was a matter of Jewish conquerors.

If you're asking for scripture that says it's ok to defend yourself if you're attacked, which is what the Jews did in 48... I'm sure someone can find something for you.

Defend and then expand right? :sleep:

I am not sure why couldn't just answer with a: No i don't belief there is such verse.

I also said you can name it whatever you want twice just name it ''The Establishment of Israel'' is that justified in the Torah?

 

[gnostic]

Then don't take the Isaac-Moses line seriously.

As in the case of religion (like belief and faith) I don't take it seriously, because I find that the Judaeo-Christian and Islamic versions of Adam to Solomon, to be nothing more than myths, legends and fables.

BUT YOU WERE THE ONE asking in your OP for sources in the Torah or the Old Testament (OT), not for historical accuracies - to the link HOLY LAND to Judaic people (Jews, Israelites, Hebrews).

Can any one helps me to provide an evidence or verses from the Holy Book ( OT ) or HaTorah that God says the land is for the Jews ?

SO I'm treating it as literary sources, not as historical sources. You were not asking if I believe in the Torah/Bible, just to provide sources, and I did. I supplied plenty of references why the land went to the descendants of Isaac-Jacob, and not to Ishmael.

It is not really my problem that you can't reconcile your belief with what it actually say in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures. I done what you ask you for in the OP as far as I am concern, but you quibble over tiny passages here and there, while at the same time, twisting the text completely out of context.

As a literature, the Genesis gives clear genealogical line between Adam and Noah [Genesis 5], then Noah's son (Shem) to Abraham [Genesis 11:10-32], and lastly from Abraham to Jacob (and Jacob's sons) [chapters 11 to 50].

And then Exodus listed Levite (son of Jacob) genealogy to Aaron and Moses [Exodus 6:13-27]. And in Ruth [4:13-22], we get the line of Judah to David (as well as elsewhere, like 1 Chronicles 2, Matthew 1 and Luke 3, which confirmed the Judah-David line).

The genealogy from Adam to Moses are quite clear and straightforward, even though I think it is mythological. But you didn't express whether it is mythological or historical genealogy, nor why the Isaac and Jacob-Israel receive the covenant of Abraham, but Ishmael and his descendants didn't. At least not in the Torah or OT Bible. You ask for sources, I had provided for you.

The Qur'an on the other hand, don't provide such straightforward genealogy from Abraham to Muhammad, because there was none. And Muhammad didn't provide any genealogy that in any way link his ancestors to Ishmael.

You have to remember that Muslims only truly began with Muhammad. The Ishmaelites were never Muslims, no matter how much you like to WISH so, because you can't provide any evidence of otherwise.

Lately, you (and F0uad) are quibbling over a race issue, of whether the Jews are Israelite or not, Hebrew or not, or Semitic or not. I don't really care, because that's not what you were asking for in your OP. As far as I concern, this god you all believe in, does say the land would be given to Isaac and Jacob's descendants, and eventually they receive the land after Moses' death. The covenant is supposed to be "everlasting", unless you think your God is fickle trickster, like promising and then breaking promises, then I don't think this God of yours is in any way trustworthy.

 

[F0uad]

Lately, you (and F0uad) are quibbling over a race issue,.

no i didn't

 

[gnostic]

no i didn't

If I misunderstood your posts, then I am sorry.

 

[beerisit]

I am a descendant of Abraham and seed of Ishmael

That is a claim, I asked for proof.

 

[Chanukah]

The Land of Israel as we know it by its biblical name 'Knaan' was promised to the Great Patriarchs of the Hebrew People. First it was promised to Abraham in clear verses in the Torah in Genesis, secondly it was promised to Isaac his Son, and then to his Son Jacob who is called 'Israel' after he defeated the Angel as famously recorded in the Torah in Genesis. Thus the Land of Israel was called so after the greatest of the Patriarchs, Jacob aka, Israel. The Torah points out that the greatest of the three Patriarchs, was Jacob (Israel), because unlike Abraham who had a wicked son Ishmael and Isaac who had a wicked son Esau, all the Children of Jacob(Israel) were righteous. The Torah later records how Jacob (Israel) and his 12 Tribes (Sons) go down to Egypt and settle there and how they get enslaved by Pharaoh for more then 200 years. After the time that God had set for the duration of their exile comes to an end, the God of Israel performs earth shuttering and world shacking grand scale miracles to rescue them and free them and bring them back to their natural God Given Land, the Land of Israel.

In the great 10 Plagues the God of Israel shows Pharaoh and all other Egyptians and the entire world at large who is in charge and who is the True Owner and Ruler and King of the world. Without any shadow of any doubt, The clarity of God's existence becomes self evident when God performs all these great miracles that defy the laws of nature, and bring about the complete salvation of his people from the hands of a brutal dictator.

So at the end of this, Egypt is completely and utterly devastated and destroyed, and the Jewish people begin a remarkable journey of spirituality in the desert that prepares them to become the nation that will receive the oracles of the only true faith directly from God himself in a grand spectacle done in a manner of a National Revelation, where every single Jewish , men women and Child and also all the millions of non-Jews who joined them after they saw with their own eyes the grandeur of God's greatness, will together at once will witness how God reveals himself to them with great spectacles and sounds and thunders and will give them his written word , The Torah publicly without any intermediators.

Thus the Jewish people became a nation at that pivotal time when they received God's Torah and in unison the Jewish religion was born in that pivotal moment in human history. Unprecedented in all the religions of the world, Judaism stands out as the only religion that didn't begin from the preachings of one loner who claimed that God had spoke to him, like for example, Christianity and Islam solely base their foundations on one man's dreams. Judaism on the other hand, didn't completely believe in Moses' claim to be the prophet of god, until all of them together had experienced prophecy , only then when they saw with their own eyes and heard with their own ears God's glorious presence when he revealed himself to them and said in the Ten Commandments : " I am Hashem your Lord, that took you out from the land of Egypt from the house of slaves, Do not have other gods before me" only then they believed Moses' status as a True Prophet sent by God.

So it is written in the Torah with extreme accuracy and crystal clarity that the God of Israel had chosen the Jewish people and all converts to Judaism who joined the Jews all throughout the years as his Chosen People and a Holy nation and a Kingdom of Priests. To them the God of Israel had performed all the great miracles that are recorded in the Torah, to them and not to Muslims, not to Christians, and not to hindus, and not to anyone else for that matter.

And he decided to dwell inside them by instructing them to build for his name a Temple where he will dwell with them, in the holy of holies. With them he had made an Ever lasting covenant in mount Sinai, never to be broken, or changed under any circumstances, no matter what will happen this covenant which god had swore by his name will exist forever, and he will never change them with another people as god had said in the Torah clearly in the verse Numbers 23:19 : "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?".

God himself tells us in the Torah that he is not a Man, for a man can change his mind, but god doesn't change his mind, therefore when he chose the Jewish People and made a covenant with them, it is an ever lasting one, not to bound to change under any circumstances. He also says in the Ten commandments never to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for He is all spiritual and has absolutely no physicality what so ever :" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth". "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them".

Clearly when Christians claim that Jesus is god they are in fact according to the standards of the Torah and of god himself are in fact worshipping idols for god had specifically said with the clearest possible words and terms to not do that, not to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for doing so is against the will of The God of Israel.

The Muslims on the other came up with this claim that the person who was taken to be offered as a sacrifice by Abraham was not Isaac as the Torah says and as God himself says, they believe that it was Ishmael. There are major critical problems with this Muslim invention:

God himself tells Abraham to send Ishmael and his mother away, for only Isaac will be the person that will be the line to continue the chain in bringing about the Nation of Israel to be the people to receive the Torah. The God of Israel saves the Jewish people, the children of Isaac, by performing for them amazing ground shaking miracles and bringing them to the foot of Mount Sinai to give them his most precious thing, his Torah. In fact Ishmael never is mentioned after his story in Genesis, and from Isaac the history of the Jewish people and how they were saved and all that they had went through is recorded. They are the Heroes of the Torah, and Ishmael is never mentioned anymore, for he was sent away. And the Children of Israel were saved from Pharaoh because their forefather Abraham passed the test and was willing to bring his beloved son Isaac (the father of Jacob) as a sacrifice before God. So there is absolutely no logical or rational justification to this Muslim invention that defies all common sense and wisdom, and was just invented by the first Muslims to somehow try to steal the Title of Israel from the Jewish people, and was only believed by the pagans of that time who knew no better, and had no tools to counter the first missionaries of Islam, who really didn't give any choice to anyone just like the first Christians, it was either accept their 'claims' or be killed, so much for free will or free choice.

So the Christians have a twisted understanding of what God is and what God is not, for anyone who has a true understanding of God will never ever blame another one that he killed god, because god is above all the physical things that govern physical things, like death. God can't be killed, and if he can then he can't be god, and one of the greatest evidence that Jesus was not god, is that he was killed, and bled to death. That's without even saying that he was a mortal, flesh and blood, and physical, born of a man and a woman. The mind can't bare, and the wisdom can't accept that the God of the universe who created heaven and earth and everything in between will be a product of a flesh and blood creature and travel through her worldly body and go through the dirt and stink that all kids have to go through. This is nothing but pure pagan belief, not so much different then all the other men made religions of the world who never went through the 'Truth Detector' of Judaism's 'National Revelation' where the God of the Universe himself reveals himself to his followers and no doubts can exist after that at all.

Said all of this since the Jewish people are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the people that god had swore to them that he will give this land to them, therefore from this power and only from this ultimate power which is the will of god in this world, the land of Israel belongs to them.
For God had created heaven and earth and he can give and take from anyone to anyone as he sees fit for he is the master of all, and no one can tell him what to do. The god of Israel chose the Jewish people from all the peoples of the world and he made an everlasting covenant with them and he gave them the land of their forefathers forever and ever, and under his instruction they built there two great temples for his Name, and had great Kingdoms and civilizations that gave to humanity and influenced humanity like no other people in history.

 

[Aabraham ben Azar]

That is a claim, I asked for proof.

When you provide a proof that present Jews are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac then I'll bring a proof for you !

 

[JacobEzra.]

When you provide a proof that present Jews are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac then I'll bring a proof for you !

Ahh what a game

 

[beerisit]

I asked you to prove that anyone on Earth was descended from this alleged Abraham. Why do you bring up Jews, just prove that one person is descended from this mythical character. You claim millions, prove it.
opcorn:

 

[gnostic]

When you provide a proof that present Jews are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac then I'll bring a proof for you !

Can you provide evidences of any sort to prove that the Muhammad was a direct descendant of Ishmael?

When I mean evidence, I mean REAL evidence. Not the Islamic traditions. From what I understand, Muhammad doesn't know, but people nevertheless fabricate connection between Ishmael and Muhammad.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

When you provide a proof that present Jews are the descendants of Abraham and seed of Isaac then I'll bring a proof for you !

It's been provided. The DNA

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Where and when did I say that large group of Jews not "Middle Eastern" ??

I think 90% of present Jews are not Semitics or Isaacs or Children of Israel ( Israelites)

Why are you lying to us?