Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

Just one important correction. Baha’is accept and believe in all the religions not just our own. We believe in Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

In our weekly services we read from the Bhagavad-Gita, the Bible, Quran, Buddhist scriptures and Zend Avesta as well as Baha’i Writungs.

In the stone architecture of all our Houses of Worship are engraved all the religious symbols - the Buddhist Wheel, Christian Cross, Star of David, Zoroastrian symbol and Hindi Om as well as Baha’i symbol.

The problem with atheism is that until you’ve found God you will continue to believe He does not exist. Until then one blindly believes there is no God and demands evidence but God is perceived through the inner senses such as insight and understanding not the outward senses. And the Word of God has the power to instil the knowledge of God into a person because it has an invisible power called the Holy Spirit.

That is why so many billions have become changed when they read the Bible, Quran, Gita or Words of Baha’u’llah.

I don't believe there are any atheists left here, but I could be mistaken.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's long been part of the Baha'i belief to grossly exaggerate the effect that Baha'u'llah either had or could have had over this planet. Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, and a ton of Nobel Peace prize winners have had far more effect.

Christ only had twelve disciples mostly uneducated fishermen. Muhammad only a handful. Give it time, IF Baha’u’llah is of the same ilk then in time it will have a similar effect.

 

[F1fan]

I know you were just joking but never ever. Gays are very good people.

The teachings of Baha’u’llah have encircled the globe thousands of times but fallen on deaf ears mostly.

Don't you find it odd that God's message is so ignored, by the very people God created? Frankly there isn't much new with what Baha'u'llah wrote.

One of His teachings is if a king opposes another and arises with an army against him, all the world should unite and bring that government to its knees. But is the entire world rising against Putin? So he continues his aggression because of disunity.

Makes God's advice pretty worthless. God should have known humans better. Why didn't he?

And what does your God say about nations being dependent on other nations for energy? Anything?

The same with Iran’s women. Where is world unity against Iran? And Myanmar is massacring it’s own people but Russia and China vetoed any UN action. So where is the world while war criminals massacre their own citizens?

The West is largely condemning these nations. But understand that there is such a thing as nation's autonomy. Other nations can't just go in and help people without the government giving permission. At best the West has imposed sanctions but these tend to hurt the very people who need help.

So Baha’u’llah’s remedy will work but governments refuse to implement it so we could be headed for a third war in order to get that unity.

Everyone knows this idea via their own wits. Baha'u'llah isn't the first to think of this. Bahai just don't have any authority or power or influence to impose this idea in a way that could work. Hesk even all of the EU and the USA couldn't stop putin. The problem os authoritarian leaders and the societies that allow them into power.

Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should anyone among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice. (Baha’u’llah)

Just words. There is no authority behind them.

And oddly, the world wars were this exact scenario, so what's the problem? He spelled it out.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But when you say you disagree they call it negative whereas they are allowed to disagree with us and they don't consider themselves negative.
Do you see the double standard?

Yes, but pointing that out just get it worse. Because its their argument toward us.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I start to feel the religious people here isn't the problem....the atheists speak a lot more about homosexuality than believers....religious people just answer questions.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe there are any atheists left here, but I could be mistaken.

There is at least one left.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but pointing that out just get it worse. Because its their argument toward us.

I know. I was pointing it out to you, not to them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Don't you find it odd that God's message is so ignored, by the very people God created? Frankly there isn't much new with what Baha'u'llah wrote.


Makes God's advice pretty worthless. God should have known humans better. Why didn't he?

And what does your God say about nations being dependent on other nations for energy? Anything?


The West is largely condemning these nations. But understand that there is such a thing as nation's autonomy. Other nations can't just go in and help people without the government giving permission. At best the West has imposed sanctions but these tend to hurt the very people who need help.


Everyone knows this idea via their own wits. Baha'u'llah isn't the first to think of this. Bahai just don't have any authority or power or influence to impose this idea in a way that could work. Hesk even all of the EU and the USA couldn't stop putin. The problem os authoritarian leaders and the societies that allow them into power.


Just words. There is no authority behind them.

And oddly, the world wars were this exact scenario, so what's the problem? He spelled it out.

My understanding is that God never forces His ideas on anyone. He sends a Messenger or Prophet and ‘offers’ guidance. We are free to accept or refuse it.

God did not create nations or borders or boundaries. Baha’u’llah says..

‘The earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’.

But because we lie and say ‘I am American or I am Chinese’ then we cannot join together to rescue our fellow human beings from war and oppression because we don’t see them as fellow human beings but as ‘Ukrainians’. God did not creat these non existent borders and barriers in man’s minds. We did. God says ‘us’ that humanity is one family living on one planet our home.

It’s man that has invented the ‘us and them syndrome’. Until we learn that we are all one family and there is no real ‘us and them’ except in our petty minds , wars will continue to ravage.

Because we can never unite if we must respect the concocted imaginary boundaries that man has created. That’s why once the world gets rid of this us and them, it will open the doors for world unity and an international police force to dispose of these war criminals and mass murderers.

But it’s up to us. If we want to keep up the pretence that there really is a species called American and another called Chinese and yet another 300 variants then we are deluded because if we cut up people on an operating table we will find neither Englishman or Russian, Jew or Christian, believer or non believer because the reality and truth is we are one race and one humanity but have deluded ourselves into now claiming we can’t rescue our oppressed fellow human beings because of deluded mentality of us and them.

When we get rid of these imaginary boundaries, then we will have peace. Now we cowards stand by and watch people being massacred. Shameless humanity allowing genocide and mass murder to continue and war criminals know of our cowardice so continue their slaughter.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I know. I was pointing it out to you, not to them.

WUT now

 

[danieldemol]

I would offer who wants to?

Anyone with enough money who had the intellectual honesty to want to either know if Baha'u'llah was truly a Manifestation of the all-Knowing or prove it to others would.

It is a sign of subconsciously not wanting to know the truth that leads one to shirk there responsibility to it.

I am happy to work for my families living, we have no need to create a wealth outside honest work.

There is nothing dishonest about transmuting elements.

Also, I would ask as to who has that hidden secret, the secret included with those passages?

You are not putting 2+2 together to get 4, Baha'u'llah claimed to reveal the will of God and said all you have to do is ask it of God, Baha'u'llah has already provided the answer for those who seek it. He said, 'consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

So it is no longer a secret, all a person has to do is keep a small amount of copper molten in its mine molten for seventy years. Its not rocket science.

But it is ok, I understand, you dont want Baha'u'llah proven to be a fraud as you do not care for the truth.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Someone could claim he wasn't in his divine nature when he said it? He was in his human nature at that moment?

I think Baha'i claim that about other prophets, specifically Moses.

They could, but then since it was part of His alleged revelation one could start asking what else in that alleged revelation was just Baha'u'llah having a human moment, then we could see lots of changes that would make conservative Baha'i squirm, for example they could have married gay couples and women on the Universal House of Justice.

In my opinion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Anyone with enough money who had the intellectual honesty to want to either know if Baha'u'llah was truly a Manifestation of the all-Knowing or prove it to others would.

It is a sign of subconsciously not wanting to know the truth that leads one to shirk there responsibility to it.


There is nothing dishonest about transmuting elements.


You are not putting 2+2 together to get 4, Baha'u'llah claimed to reveal the will of God and said all you have to do is ask it of God, Baha'u'llah has already provided the answer for those who seek it. He said, 'consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

So it is no longer a secret, all a person has to do is keep a small amount of copper molten in its mine molten for seventy years. Its not rocket science.

But it is ok, I understand, you dont want Baha'u'llah proven to be a fraud as you do not care for the truth.

In my opinion.

Hi Daniel. Love to all your family.

I came across this transcript of a talk given by Adib Taherzadeh. I think he was a former House of Justice member. Anyway it’s his view.

This is the link

Transcript:Adib Taherzadeh/Growing in the Bahá’í Faith/Day 3 - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith


14]And the third sign - which is also has happened and has taken place already on a smaller scale but anyhow, it has taken place - is that the alchemy, he says, will become an achieved, alchemy will be achieved. That is, the transmusion of copper into gold of any metal, the transmission, the changing of elements. Now this has already taken place in the atomic laboratories and you can do this through the processes of the atomic physics, but it is so expensive that if you change them, it's going to be very expensive. I read some time ago in the newspapers years ago that one of the nations, Russians have said they can produce gold or they will produce gold which would be cheaper than what is in the market. Now again, this is an indication, this alchemy. By the way, when alchemy has been one of those things that all the early men of knowledge and science of those days from the time early days of Islam they have been working on it, many, many people. Actually the word "alchemy", the word "chemist" is an Arabic word "kimya'". It's from "kimya'", which is an Arabic word. But during Bahá’u’lláh's lifetime also, many of His disciples, many of His disciples during His lifetime were involving themselves in this act of producing, of testing and experimenting. And Bahá’u’lláh stopped them. He said this is not the time for it. He told them to stop this. And He said when the time comes, it will be discovered. And He said when it will be discovered, we have a tablet of Bahá’u’lláh, which is very striking. He says when it is discovered, mankind will discover a force which can destroy the whole world. And He prays that God will not-- and this is as I said, associated with the discovery of the atomic energy. So now you see, these are the signs of the coming of age of humanity. And in this pilgrim's note, we heard Shoghi Effendi said that the Lesser Peace and the coming of age of humanity is the same thing which, from the signs that I mentioned to you, it's very likely. (Adib Taherzadeh)

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But when you say you disagree they call it negative whereas they are allowed to disagree with us and they don't consider themselves negative.
Do you see the double standard?

There are a couple of kinds of disagreeing -- the reasonable one says, "I disagree with you because of these reasons...". The other says, "I disagree with you because you're wrong" or "I disagree because I've been told otherwise."

The first is what good conversations can be made of, wherein actual learning can happen, and thus positive. The second is dogmatic and argumentative, and thus negative.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

They could, but then since it was part of His alleged revelation one could start asking what else in that alleged revelation was just Baha'u'llah having a human moment, then we could see lots of changes that would make conservative Baha'i squirm, for example they could have married gay couples and women on the Universal House of Justice.

In my opinion.

Dogma does not yield (easily) to reason.

 

[F1fan]

My understanding is that God never forces His ideas on anyone.

It would have to exist, right?

He sends a Messenger or Prophet and ‘offers’ guidance. We are free to accept or refuse it.

Messengers claim they were sent by God. We can't find evidence of any God, and the Messengers are flawed, so there is reason to reject their claims.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It would have to exist, right?


Messengers claim they were sent by God. We can't find evidence of any God, and the Messengers are flawed, so there is reason to reject their claims.

You haven’t found evidence yet so you’re right to have that view.

 

[F1fan]

You haven’t found evidence yet so you’re right to have that view.

Why is the evidence so elusive to critical thinkers?

If there is valid evidence for a God then it will be available to rational and objective minds, and they would acknowledge that it is likely, or true, that a God exists.

Not only is there no evidence, there is no effects that believers can point to that suggests any sort of supernatural is real.

 

[Trailblazer]

WUT now

Nothing really.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

There are a couple of kinds of disagreeing -- the reasonable one says, "I disagree with you because of these reasons...". The other says, "I disagree with you because you're wrong" or "I disagree because I've been told otherwise." The first is what good conversations can be made of, wherein actual learning can happen, and thus positive. The second is dogmatic and argumentative, and thus negative.

Agree. There is only one kind of dissent with any value to the critical thinker, and that is rebuttal, which is a counterargument to a claim or argument that demonstrates why it can't be correct. The rebuttal must conclude with a statement that if correct makes the rebutted claim incorrect. Most commonly, people dissent without rebuttal. There may be useless verbiage following "I disagree," or even a partial rebuttal, but no rebuttal. A partial rebuttal is when one offers a variety of pieces of evidence in support of an argument and only one is rebutted, as when discussing the pagan roots of Western Christmases, and one names a variety of pieces of evidence such as multiple resurrected gods in pagan mythologies and one is refuted.

I start to feel the religious people here isn't the problem....the atheists speak a lot more about homosexuality than believers....religious people just answer questions.

The Abrahamic religions and their homophobic bigotry are the problem here. The Baha'i accepting it uncritically and refusing to repudiate it when promoting their religion are vectors for the problem. The rest are defending decent people living lawfully while trying to make ends meet and make their communities better places from these religions and their pernicious homophobic dogma. It's obviously not a negotiable point for either side in this discussion. The Baha'i will not disavow their scripture, and the rest will call them on its immorality and their moral weakness for accepting it uncritically and even defending it.

My understanding is that God never forces His ideas on anyone.

My understanding is that God never does anything. God is indistinguishable from the nonexistent.

The teachings of Baha’u’llah have encircled the globe thousands of times but fallen on deaf ears mostly.

What teachings? Airy platitudes? There are zero original ideas there for world peace, and no plan. Christians say the same - the world would be great if people had just taken Jesus' advice to love one another. But one johnny-come-lately saying the same thing as uncounted numbers in the past and present somehow is different, and the world is at fault for not becoming peaceful as was suggested because they didn't heed this one voice with little persuasive power.

I've seen thousands of those words reproduced in RF threads, and absolutely none of it is helpful regarding achieving world unity. None of those words have impacted me one iota. Why do you think that anybody should give them a second thought? What can they teach a humanist about peace, unity, or tolerance? Humanism doesn't contain any homophobia, which, ceteris paribus, makes it a superior moral system. And it's that moral code that informs the secular entities actually doing something about world unity like the UN, NATO, the ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and Amnesty International. None of those have a homophobic plank in their charters, either.

One of His teachings is if a king opposes another and arises with an army against him, all the world should unite and bring that government to its knees. But is the entire world rising against Putin? So he continues his aggression because of disunity. The same with Iran’s women. Where is world unity against Iran? And Myanmar is massacring it’s own people but Russia and China vetoed any UN action. So where is the world while war criminals massacre their own citizens?

Where are the Baha'i? Some of the entities I just named are grappling with these issues currently, but where are the Baha'i except standing in the background chanting that they should have listened to Baha'u'llah?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Nothing really.

Hehe