Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

Like your religions and gay people you mean?

No, I mean like you blaming religions for what people freely choose to do.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have seen no Baha'i undertaking in that.

Regards Tony

Take a look at the "statistics" about homosexuality and health outcomes written above -- then think about what the actual "CAUSES" of those outcomes might be. You might, just for starters, take a look at the statistics about wealth and health outcomes. And then ask yourself whether the fact that poverty is directly correlated with poorer outcomes means that poverty is inherently sinful and evil.

THINK about people actually mean when they say the things they do. It's patently obvious if you don't try so hard to avoid it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said it:

Straw man. No, I did not say that gay people are "evil sexual aberrations that should be purged"
I asked for a reasonable and cogent argument.

Trailblazer said: ↑
If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it's ok to say anything you want, as long as the people you're saying it about don't generally hear it?

I am not saying anything to anyone about homosexuality. I am just responding to posts on a forum.

 

[ppp]

No. I refer to God not myself.

Really. So, there is an actual possibility that you are wrong about the infallibility of Baha’u’llah?

 

[ppp]

I asked for a reasonable and cogent argument.

Why are you asking for a reasonable and cogent argument when you don't bring one? Heck, you revel in the fact that you don't bring one.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Infallibility? You have, it seems, turned Baha'u'llah into a god. I wonder if he would have approved.

I agree that the real issue here is Baha’u’llah. It’s very difficult when most know very little or nothing about Him and don’t realise how big this all is. I think in time the entire world will become aware of Him.

Baha’u’llah is not God in essence. But Baha’is believe His claims to be the Voice of God for humanity for this age. He claimed to be the Promised One foretold in the scriptures of all religions. We Baha’is believe that is true after carefully investigating these claims not just blindly believing in Him. We believe that all Manifestations of God such as Christ, Moses, Muhammad were infallible and received infallible knowledge from God making them All knowing.

From the very first time I heard about Baha’u’llah as an atheist and dismissed it as nonsense and rubbish until I realised this is something way too big for humanity to possibly grasp right now, years passed. Now I’m 45 years a Baha’i and I’m lost for words about Baha’u’llah.

The staunchest enemies and opponents of this Cause have been subdued by the power and beauty of Baha’u’llah even though at the outset they opposed it vehemently. This Faith is irresistible. The only chance you have of not falling in love with a Cause such as this would be to ignore it completely and never breathe a word about it nor mention it on this forum. Once you start opposing and talking about Baha’u’llah you increase the risk of yourself being drawn to this Faith.

So many who sprouted that this is garbage and ridiculed it found in the end it to be irresistible. So if you don’t want to become a Baha’i ever, then it’s best you forget we exist.

 

[Sheldon]

Trailblazer said: ↑
I know how an analogy works but torturing babies is not analogous to depriving people of sex.

It is in the sense they are both wrong or harmful.

Do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Yes the dictionary, type the word analogy and then the word definition into Google.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you are saying (because your statement was in the form of "if....then") that you do in fact consider homosexuality to be "evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc."

What part of that "purged" is also a part of your vaunted Baha'i faith?

I am not saying any of that. If you want to know what is written you can read it below.

Homosexuality

There is no reference to purging homosexuality, clearly a misrepresentation on the part of @KWED . The only reference to purging was as follows:

"Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Really. So, there is an actual possibility that you are wrong about the infallibility of Baha’u’llah?

All people have been given the capacity to recognise a Manifestation of God when He appears.

 

[Trailblazer]

Helping the world defeat Nazism seems pretty moral to me, maybe you think differently.

That is a red herring.....
Nazi-ism has nothing to do with homosexuality.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope, that is just facile reasoning that religious homophobes use to express lazy stereotypes. Your argument was that there is no evidence gay people are moral, maybe you think helping the world defeat Nazism wasn't moral? Alan Turing arguably contributed more than anyone to defeating Nazism, ipso facto he was moral, he was also gay, and also persecuted for who he was until he committed suicide. Now do you think he was treated fairly or justly? Lets not forget you have claimed to need a valid reason not to purge gay people?

Red herring.

 

[Trailblazer]

One can't help but notice that you are becoming nastier. .

I said: The opinions expressed that gay people are moral or not an aberration are just that, merely opinions, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on personal opinions.

What is nasty about stating that opinions are only opinions?

 

[Trailblazer]

Change "gay people" to "straight people" or "Baha'i people" or "tall people" or anything else you like, and it would make no difference. People aren't "moral," and people are not "an aberration" just because they are gay, straight, Baha'i, tall or anything else. They are moral because they do right by their fellow human beings, and they are aberrations only when their actual behaviours -- in doing harm to others -- makes them so.

That is all very true.

 

[CG Didymus]

Curious on the topic, I found this video: Mr. Orey was a Bahai who wrote a letter in 1993 to the NSA of the USA. Two months back he put this video on line. It's very well done and summarizes the situation well. I watched the whole thing, it's only 22 minutes long.

It's well worth watching for Baha'is. The rest of us kind of suspect that there is something wrong with what Baha'is say and do. Then he said that he and other gay Baha'is wrote to the NSA , but they never heard back? I think the problem is that Baha'is have nowhere else to go with this. They are committed to obeying the rules and the rules and unchangeable. Gays will not be accepted if they keep living their gay lifestyle.

 

[Trailblazer]

Homosexuality is not a behaviour, it is part of who a person is. How would you feel if someone said Bahai's were evil and unnatural and needed to be purged

I never said that homosexuals were evil and unnatural and needed to be purged.
The Baha'i Writings do not say that either.

 

[samtonga43]

Straw man. No, I did not say that gay people are "evil sexual aberrations that should be purged"
I asked for a reasonable and cogent argument.
Trailblazer said: ↑
If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

So, to you, unless this type of argument is presented, you will continue to view homosexuality as evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc.

Correct?

 

[Sheldon]

Evangelicalhumanist said: ↑
Absolute trust and complete certainty that "whatever He [God] decrees is right, true and in our best interests."

And yet, you could not show the remotest bit of evidence that "He" made any "decrees" at all

That’s your opinion.

It's not just an opinion though, obviously.

I believe very much that God exists and I choose to follow what I believe is an infallible source of knowledge as opposed to faulty, error prone human speculation.

Written by a human.

I was once an atheist too but later I found out I was dead wrong

About what?

I’m just saying that allow for the fact that maybe God exists

That's not a fact, it is unevidenced speculation.

and has sent Educators to guide us spiritually and that their guidance may be what is best for us.

Bigoted homophobic educators who plagiarise archaic superstitions? I'd need some compelling objective evidence for their claims, have you any? In fact lets save some bandwidth and go straight to the most compelling piece of objective evidence you believe you have?

 

[Sheldon]

I have seen no Baha'i undertaking in that.

Regards Tony

I have, I can only conclude you haven't read the entire thread. Would you like a quote?

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

Stomach churning stuff.

 

[CG Didymus]

Did you see post 1518?

Thanks, for bringing it up. Otherwise, I might not have gone back and watched. Well worth the twenty-two minutes.