Homosexuality

[sojourner]

Not agreeing with people’s lifestyles, doesn’t mean I hate them. Far from it.

Homosexuality isn’t a “lifestyle.” It’s a sexual orientation. What you’re disagreeing with is who someone is. In Polite Society, we call that … discrimination. And discrimination is hate-driven.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Homosexuality isn’t a “lifestyle.” It’s a sexual orientation. What you’re disagreeing with is who someone is. In Polite Society, we call that … discrimination. And discrimination is hate-driven.

In response to another post, you yourself called it a lifestyle!

So a lifestyle where people demonstrate honest love responsibly is now “morally unacceptable?”

Grief.

 

[Left Coast]

In response to another post, you yourself called it a lifestyle!



Grief.

The term "lifestyle," as I'm sure must have been explained to you before, is problematic for two reasons. One, it implies that this is something about myself that I chose - which it simply is not. Two, it implies that its some hobby or trivial thing I do as a passtine rather than an integral part of who I am as a person.

Do you recognize why it's problematic?

 

[sojourner]

In response to another post, you yourself called it a lifestyle!



Grief.

You’re twisting my meaning. It’s not the homosexuality that’s s lifestyle. It’s the way in which the relationship between two people is enacted in the home and in the world that constitutes the lifestyle. It’s an important distinction that one takes note of, if one really understands the nature of human sexuality and how it is lived out.

Grief!

 

[Fool]

I'm following from @Vouthon's thread which seems to be going in a different direction.

I saw on there some folks saying that essentially homosexual kin should be let go of. I first would like to know how Christians accord this with 'forgive seventy times seven' and eating with sinners and so on, and second how could any person, in his heart, disown a brother or sister or whoever, or a friend, for this? One can disagree with the behaviour, or one can repudiate the person, but I don't think this is an issue like murder or rape, by any means. In every other area of his life he could be a stellar person, a model student, a great giver, a considerate worker, but you're going to kick him out because he fell in love with another boy?

Could you find it in yourself to disown someone over this? Some of your friends may be closeted, some may be out, some may be your brothers or sisters.

Is this the way forward? I disagree massively with what the LGBT movement has done and become and I do not own any of that. But that is not what I'm talking about.

love doesn't have a form; there can be no sin in love.


what god, what love, has joined together let no man tear asunder.



proverbs 10:12

 

[Hockeycowboy]

love doesn't have a form; there can be no sin in love.


what god, what love, has joined together let no man tear asunder.



proverbs 10:12

What love do you mean?
The LXX, at Proverbs 10:12, uses agape….
The Greeks have 4 words for love: “agape”, “storge”, “filia”, and “eros”.
Agape is great for every relationship, even toward a pet. However, eros would not be.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What love do you mean?
The LXX, at Proverbs 10:12, uses agape….
The Greeks have 4 words for love: “agape”, “storge”, “filia”, and “eros”.
Agape is great for every relationship, even toward a pet. However, eros would not be.

They also had philautia (love of self) and xenia (guest friendship/hospitality) and many others.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The term "lifestyle," as I'm sure must have been explained to you before, is problematic for two reasons. One, it implies that this is something about myself that I chose - which it simply is not. Two, it implies that its some hobby or trivial thing I do as a passtine rather than an integral part of who I am as a person.

Do you recognize why it's problematic?

First off, I do not hate you. You’re my cousin…(but now I somewhat understand why you attack my posts which support the Bible.)

Second, the etiology of homosexuality has not been found to have a biological basis.
Science is looking, believe me! Because it’s quite an issue.

I don’t think they’ll find one….from a scientific standpoint why would evolution, whose sole purpose is to pass on genes, mutate one that would defeat that purpose?

And third, I’ve personally known individuals who started out learning about Jehovah, and began developing a relationship with Him, and with His help, they gave up that lifestyle. After much struggle, but in the end, happily. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states something similar. Not that that has any meaning to you.)

of course, I’ve known others that couldn’t.
And some that couldn’t give up smoking.

But when a person begins to love Jehovah with, as Jesus said, their “whole mind and whole heart (Matthew 22:37)”…. then that desire results in His spirit, the two of which can overcome any other desires.

Life is difficult, this system makes it so … I have my own issues I confront daily.

I wish you well, and a life free of ill treatment & hatred.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don’t think they’ll find one….from a scientific standpoint why would evolution, whose sole purpose is to pass on genes, mutate one that would defeat that purpose?

Because nature is faceless and handless. And even then it probably still has a purpose, such as bonding (and we see this often in social animals).

 

[Left Coast]

First off, I do not hate you. You’re my cousin…(but now I somewhat understand why you attack my posts which support the Bible.)

You think the only reason I criticize fundamentalist views of the Bible is because I'm gay? For someone who "doesn't hate me," that's a very silly caricature of me as a person.

Second, the etiology of homosexuality has not been found to have a biological basis.
Science is looking, believe me! Because it’s quite an issue.

Firstly, you're incorrect. While science has not definitively found the exact biological mechanism for homosexuality, it is very clear that it has at least a partially biological basis. There are a number of peer reviewed studies that have explored this. You should actually read some before commenting on things you don't understand. Since you "don't hate me" and everything.

I don’t think they’ll find one….from a scientific standpoint why would evolution, whose sole purpose is to pass on genes, mutate one that would defeat that purpose?

There are also a number of possible explanations for this that have also been explored by scientists. Firstly, you're aware that being gay doesn't preclude a person from procreating, right? Tell me you at least know that much.

Again, you should actually read some of the peer reviewed scientific research on these questions instead of just getting your information from the Watchtower.

And third, I’ve personally known individuals who started out learning about Jehovah, and began developing a relationship with Him, and with His help, they gave up that lifestyle. After much struggle, but in the end, happily.

I've also personally both been that claimed person who "gave up the lifestyle," and have also known numerous other gay people who have done the same. So I will tell you a secret: we're lying. We of course can be celibate and sometimes we are, but our sexual orientation can't be made to change. The whole notion of being "ex-gay" has been completely debunked and so many people, including leaders of those ministries, have left those ministries and admitted they were a) a sham, and b) often very emotionally abusive and manipulative. But now that they've left, they've experienced the freedom from shame and guilt that is put on them for simply being themselves by organizations like yours.

We have no need to go back to a life of guilt and shame and denial of who we are. It would be regression.

of course, I’ve known others that couldn’t.
And some that couldn’t give up smoking.

Comparing sexual orientation to addiction just demonstrates you don't understand what you're talking about, once again. So again, for someone who "doesn't hate me," it's baffling that you wouldn't do basic research to educate yourself on these topics, since you respect us so much.

I wish you well, and a life free of ill treatment & hatred.

The best way to enable that to happen is for people to abandon the toxic theologies that teach them gayness is immoral.

Now after all that, you still didn't bother to even respond to what I actually explained to you about the term "lifestyle" and why it's problematic and disrespectful. If you "don't hate me," you'll stop using terms that misrepresent my experience. Right?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't believe you.


Describing homosexuality as a "behaviour" that a person "struggles with" is a big red flag that you don't know what you're talking about.

... regardless of how many LGBTQ people you've victimized.

People go to church for counseling saying, "Help, I'm struggling with homosexual desires."

Of course you believe me, that my wife and I counsel for hope and healing and never to torture or bind someone.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Stockholm Syndrome is a hell of a drug.

Edit: and seeing how "every homosexual you've spoken to" is necessarily someone who, despite your hateful rhetoric, stuck around long enough to have a conversation, I don't think you've got a representative sample of LGBTQ people generally.

I believe you are confusing the strong words I have for atheists who proselytize atheism on religious and spiritual forums with the loving compassion I show people who are hurting. Then again, the way you speak to me, you are hurting. I am sorry you are hurting.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People go to church for counseling saying, "Help, I'm struggling with homosexual desires."

Like I said: Stockholm Syndrome is a hell of a drug.

Of course you believe me, that my wife and I counsel for hope and healing and never to torture or bind someone.

No, I really don't. I think that you inflict evil and great harm on vulnerable people.

How many of the people you "counsel" have you driven to suicide?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe you are confusing the strong words I have for atheists who proselytize atheism on religious and spiritual forums with the loving compassion I show people who are hurting.

No, this is entirely about your "pray the gay away" crap. You may try to dress it up with euphemisms... you may even sincerely believe yourself that you're doing good, what you're doing is evil.

Then again, the way you speak to me, you are hurting. I am sorry you are hurting.

It's mostly anger about the memory of a friend who was driven to suicide by someone like you.

Don't try to deflect. My anger, contempt and disgust for you right now is entitely about the evil you inflict on vulnerable people.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Ha! Yes. The word translated as “sky” is Raqiya. It literally means, “a hammered-out bowl.” One “hammers out” some rigid material. In order for the resulting bowl to cover the face of the earth, the face of the earth would necessarily have to be disc-shaped. That’s what it says; that’s what it means; that’s how the ancients understood it, due to lack of science. In the same way they misunderstood human sexuality, due to lack of science.

I was referring to chûgh and not raqiya as used in the scriptures, a child's plaything also in the lexicon--children play with balls and not "rounds" or "bowls" unless they are playing house or hula hoop.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And I’m saying that most of the folks I’ve talked to didn’t have any past trauma.

I was asking if you've discussed past trauma with them--it's a healing root regardless of whether you believe homosexuality represents a problem needing solving.

By the way, you did say that you've counseled homosexuals who experienced trauma coming out to their family. Did they all come out when they were adults or young? If young, wouldn't that represent past trauma? You said the wounds of those "correcting" their orientation were problematic, more so than any identity or sexual confusion...

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is no longer true.

Hi.

Hi! I mentioned two roots--past imprinting (typically abuse by someone while the child is pre-pubescent or in early puberty) and/or a broken relationship/distance from in youth the same sex parent or guardian. Since being alerted to those twin roots by secular therapists, I've seen them in homosexuals particularly who lack all desire for heterosexual relations, have never performed/been aroused with the opposite gender, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Inaccuracies are inexcusable when it's supposed to be the word of god.
And that's not what a vacuum is. It's not a void is. You probably want to learn these things before making claims about them.

When you're telling them being gay is wrong you are shaming them and not helping.

It's not an inaccuracy for God--who is a fabulous communicator--to achieve two aims with His Word, first, use lay language discerned and understood by 99% of lay readers/hearers.

Second, to use certain language and phraseology so that skeptics can willfully be excluded from the treasure within. Recall that Jesus described two houses built on sand and stone and one destroyed by the elements. Where He described these houses in Israel is a place where one DIGS DEEPER to get to the good stuff!

 

[Left Coast]

Hi! I mentioned two roots--past imprinting (typically abuse by someone while the child is pre-pubescent or in early puberty) and/or a broken relationship/distance from in youth the same sex parent or guardian. Since being alerted to those twin roots by secular therapists, I've seen them in homosexuals particularly who lack all desire for heterosexual relations, have never performed/been aroused with the opposite gender, etc.

"Broken relationship/distance from in youth the same sex parent or guardian" is pretty vague, and a very outdated Freudian outlook on the question. Anyone who goes looking will inevitably find that literally anyone, including straight people, have had some form of conflict or "distance" from their same sex parent in their childhood. For gay people, this can be due to their tendency to be gender non-conforming as children, particularly in conservative households where that behavior is criticized or forbidden.

But none of this stuff has been shown to be causal clinically, so whatever "secular therapists" you've read, they're very out of date. Nor is any of it relevant to the morality of same sex relationships.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not an inaccuracy for God--who is a fabulous communicator--to achieve two aims with His Word, first, use lay language discerned and understood by 99% of lay readers/hearers.

Second, to use certain language and phraseology so that skeptics can willfully be excluded from the treasure within. Recall that Jesus described two houses built on sand and stone and one destroyed by the elements. Where He described these houses in Israel is a place where one DIGS DEEPER to get to the good stuff!

Of course. And, of course, you still never addressed the "fix and flat" claim of the Bible.