horrors of religion

[ManTimeForgot]

I'm shocked anyone could assert that religion cannot be an enabler unless it is proven that religion is significantly different from every other major institution that ever existed. That is an illogical requirement.

I agree it is an enabler. An enabler doesn't mean it is guilty of being anything bad. I'm asking you to show me how it more greatly "enables" (facillitates) evil than good. Until you can do that this thread is in error. The OP posits that religion is a poison. Until you can show me how religion is different from other institutions and how that difference results in more harm or greater propensity towards facilitating harm, then the OP's position CANNOT be true.

MTF

 

[ChristineES]

These are not faults accusations, they are simply fact. How is this hypocritical? are any of the things I am accusing religion of untrue? And again I am speaking of the Three major world religions.

I have never harmed anyone, most of the Christians I have known are kind-hearted people. I have never heard a preacher talk about going around hurting people. They never insinuated it, either. I don't know where you get your facts from, but they are not factual to me or most other Christians I have known. They are also not true of other people of faith/religion.
The statements are hypocritical because they are stereotyping. and stereotyping anyone of any race, religion, or ethnic group has never been a good thing. Even stereotypes that seem like good things.
I can't say that no Christian or anyone from any other faith has never harmed anyone, that would be a lie. And I can say the same thing about people who have no faith or no religion.
If you want to believe that someone is going to be more likely violent because he/she has faith, there is nothing I can say to dissuade you, but at least I know that it isn't true and that violence is just human nature- and both theists and atheists are capable of succumbing to violence.

 

[Diederick]

All this "enabler" stuff... So religion is an enabler, but that doesn't make it bad? Well, I can see a gun enables people to kill someone else, but it's the urge to kill someone else that we find bad. That urge, if you will, comes from religion.

Religion doesn't supply the tools to enact what someone wants, it gives people an excuse to want what they want.

 

[monta]

Religion doesn't supply the tools to enact what someone wants, it gives people an excuse to want what they want.

Exactly.

Religion came from people, it is a manifest of human desires some good and some bad, some obsolete and some relevant and some cause you to make this face

 

[Kathryn]

All this "enabler" stuff... So religion is an enabler, but that doesn't make it bad? Well, I can see a gun enables people to kill someone else, but it's the urge to kill someone else that we find bad. That urge, if you will, comes from religion.

Religion doesn't supply the tools to enact what someone wants, it gives people an excuse to want what they want.

I hope you're not saying that the urge to kill comes from religion.

The urge to kill comes from within a person - and it's there because of character traits within that person.

Why did Hitler's henchmen - Goebbels, Goring, Himmler - gravitate toward him, succeed in reaching the top echelon of the Nazi party, and implement that horrible regime? Was it because of religion? Was it because they read a book? Or was it because they were evil men?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was born into the same era and country, read many of the same books they read, and had lots of social connections - in fact he was a published author. Why didn't he want to be a Nazi too? He stood firm against that regime because he was a man of strong moral character. He put his own religious beliefs into action. Hitler's henchmen sent him to the hangman's noose.

So - for the sake of argument, I'm going to go with your (in my opinion flawed) statement that religion supplies people an excuse to want what they want. Would you say that belief systems OTHER THAN religion also give people an excuse what they want?

And would you say that religion gave Bonhoeffer an excuse to want death?

 

[Diederick]

I hope you're not saying that the urge to kill comes from religion.

I was responding to this enabler stuff. It enables people, in a way different from the function of a tool. It just offers an excuse to want something, perhaps it is even a promoter of that desired.

So - for the sake of argument, I'm going to go with your (in my opinion flawed) statement that religion supplies people an excuse to want what they want. Would you say that belief systems OTHER THAN religion also give people an excuse what they want?

Perhaps there are a few, but I don't think any other than religion so explicitly demands action, apart from common sense, of course.

 

[Kathryn]

I was responding to this enabler stuff. It enables people, in a way different from the function of a tool. It just offers an excuse to want something, perhaps it is even a promoter of that desired.

Perhaps there are a few, but I don't think any other than religion so explicitly demands action, apart from common sense, of course.

Hmmmm, patriotism and political activism spring to mind immediately, as do political regimes of all shapes and sizes. Secular humanism is a-religious and can be a huge motivator and call to action (see "French Revolution").

Also, ever met anyone who sells Mary Kay? I WANT THAT PINK CADILLAC!

 

[Sunstone]

I agree it is an enabler. An enabler doesn't mean it is guilty of being anything bad. I'm asking you to show me how it more greatly "enables" (facillitates) evil than good. Until you can do that this thread is in error. The OP posits that religion is a poison. Until you can show me how religion is different from other institutions and how that difference results in more harm or greater propensity towards facilitating harm, then the OP's position CANNOT be true.

MTF

I don't have to show you that religion enables more evil than good because I am not arguing that it enables more evil than good.

 

[richardlowellt]

So I noticed no one here arguing Richard's case actually bothered to respond to either of my posts back on page 9.


Sunstone: Religion is an enabler. So what? So is every major institution that has ever existed. Until you can show how religion is different than any other major institution and how that difference actually leads to more harm done, then you have NO CASE.

MTF

I thought I had addressed this, but let me try again, with religion there is a expectation for good, again there is no wiggle room here, religion, and I speaking of the three major world wide religions, has its central figure,God as an all powerful, all loving, all caring being, nothing but good is expected to come from that religion or those who follow it. Religion will cause people to ignore reason and logic, any debate with a Christian over evolution or the downfall of man, or life after death, will bear that out. People who blindly follow a dogma and ignore reason and logic are capable of doing horrible things in the name of that God. Can you name me another institution where that kind of blind obedience?

 

[Storm]

Can you name me another institution where that kind of blind obedience?

Nationalism. Anything that demonizes the "other."

"Every day, here and at home, we are warned about the enemy. But who is the enemy? Is it the alien? Well, we are all alien to one another. Is it the one who believes differently than we do? No, not at all, my friends. The enemy is fear. The enemy is ignorance. The enemy is the one who tells you that you must hate that which is different. Because, in the end, that hate will turn on you. And that same hate will destroy you." ~ J. Michael Straczynski, Babylon 5 The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

 

[Storm]

Richard, the thing is, you're arguing a strawman. Nobody is saying that religious people are perfect, and never do anything wrong. But you're also arguing a faulty generalization (religion poisons everything), supported by the fallacy of counting the hits and ignoring the misses.

OF COURSE religious people sometimes do bad things. Would you like to know why? Because sometimes PEOPLE do bad things, and the vast majority of people are religious. Correlation =/= causation.

However, the vast majority of the religious are good, kind, decent people. Again, this is because the vast majority of people are good, kind, and decent, and the vast majority of people are religious.

Religion is no more to be applauded for the overwhelming decency of its members than it is to be blamed for the minority of monsters. Again, correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh, I disagree, without this mans extreme religious belief he would have taken his daughter to the doctors.

How do you know this man was born without the capacity for rational thought? Rational thought evaporates when religion comes to town. How many intelligent people have you known who believe in the most irrational of things because of their religious beliefs?

Lots.

Show me where religion is inherently irrational. Do not use mythology, dogma, or doctrines.

 

[Riverwolf]

Music comes from inside...

So does the Divine.

I have no belief in a God figure and have been told I wrote some beautiful music.

Really? I'd like to hear it. (I'm serious. I love music.)

 

[Riverwolf]

would have probably let her die anyway.

Show me a post where someone said this.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think these are the best points made so far in this thread! As far as the story given in the original post, the parent's were obviously wrong in their actions. At least when Abraham went to kill his son, he honestly believed that god had told him to do so. These people risked their daughters life to prove their own faith instead of helping her and should go to jail for their negligence.

I'd like to take a moment to say that I agree.

I will say that this man's foolishness caused the tragedy, but that does not change the fact that he committed negligent homicide, and should spend time in jail.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm not denying it - I'm expanding the premise to it's logical conclusion.

You could say, "Potatoes make people fat." I would answer that "The MISAPPLICATION OF POTATOES can make SOME people FAT."

Family members CAN be enablers, religious groups CAN be enablers, your buddy you drink with every weekend CAN be an enabler, your professor CAN be an enabler. But only if YOU CHOOSE to eschew sound principles.

You might want to add "and HAS BEEN" to your statements.

 

[Riverwolf]

The very hand of God uplifting the whole of humanity; you theist scarcely know what it is you have; basking in its glory, sometimes I think its radiance blinds you.

Too much light is just as blinding as too much darkness. :yes:

 

[Riverwolf]

I thought I had addressed this, but let me try again, with religion there is a expectation for good, again there is no wiggle room here, religion, and I speaking of the three major world wide religions, has its central figure,God as an all powerful, all loving, all caring being, nothing but good is expected to come from that religion or those who follow it. Religion will cause people to ignore reason and logic, any debate with a Christian over evolution or the downfall of man, or life after death, will bear that out. People who blindly follow a dogma and ignore reason and logic are capable of doing horrible things in the name of that God. Can you name me another institution where that kind of blind obedience?

Scientology. lol

Now, I'd like to point out that 7 out of 10 Christians I've ever talked to accepted evolution as fact, if not a very likely theory, and denied young-earth creationism; every Jew I've ever talked to whose mentioned the subject of evolution accepts it. (I will admit, however, that the majority of Muslims I've talked to on this website denies evolution, but this is based on bias and misinformation, not stupidity or an inability to think logically; according to the information they use, evolution cannot logically exist. Blame their sources, not them themselves.)

By the way, there are WAY more than just three major world religions.

 

[Kathryn]

You might want to add "and HAS BEEN" to your statements.

Sorry, but I'm not sure I get your point. Please explain!

 

[Storm]

No response to post #211, Richard?