horrors of religion

[Sunstone]

Of course I can have my cake and eat it all, religion is not responsible for good, people will do good things because they have compassion for their fellow man, because you would not want to do to others what you don't want doe to you. Do you think that if by some stroke of luck there was never any such thing as religion, that people would act differently as far as treating each other kindly? Now bring in religion, multiple religions so that disagreements over who has the right God begins to brew, stir in rigid guidelines, add a pinch of dogma, and a large dose of close mindedness, can you begin to feel the poison take effect?

Religion is an enabler. It enables both good and evil. Why would it enable one but not the other? Magic?

 

[J Bryson]

Religion is an enabler. It enables both good and evil. Why would it enable one but not the other? Magic?

Exactly. That's what I don't get in this argument. People will point out the horrors done in the name of religion, but when the good is pointed out, they will say "Well, people will do good anyway". Then why wouldn't they do evil anyway?

 

[richardlowellt]

If you have nothing new to say, why bother posting? Repetition does not make your bigotry any more logical or persuasive.

Funny, anything you don't agree with you label as bigotry. I'll post as much repetition as I care to, if it bothers you, don't read it or respond to it. I can see that anything thats rubs against your religious belief will appear illogical to you.

 

[richardlowellt]

Exactly. That's what I don't get in this argument. People will point out the horrors done in the name of religion, but when the good is pointed out, they will say "Well, people will do good anyway". Then why wouldn't they do evil anyway?

Of course they will do evil anyway, just maybe without fanatical religious beliefs, less evil will be done.

 

[Storm]

Funny, anything you don't agree with you label as bigotry. I'll post as much repetition as I care to, if it bothers you, don't read it or respond to it. I can see that anything thats rubs against your religious belief will appear illogical to you.

More ad hom. Was there a tutorial on trolls.com or something? Or is it just that bigots have nothing else to fall back on?

 

[J Bryson]

Of course they will do evil anyway, just maybe without fanatical religious beliefs, less evil will be done.

It's just as likely that without religious motivation, less good will be done.

 

[kai]

Although an extreme case this certainly points to the danger that religion plays when a belief is taken to the extreme. A father prayed instead of taking his 11 year old to the hospital because he couldn't seek medical help without disobeying God. "I can't do that because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed. If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God. God promises in the bible to heal, for that to take place in our lives we have to live on God's instructions. His daughter had diabetes and at the time could not walk, talk, eat , or speak. She died on the floor as people surrounded her and prayed. If this is not an example of how religion can be a poison, please tell me why.

Incredible:

stone age thinking in the richest most technologically advanced country in the world.

 

[Riverwolf]

Sorry, but I'm not sure I get your point. Please explain!

Religion CAN be an enabler, and HAS BEEN an enabler in the past.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Of course I can have my cake and eat it all, religion is not responsible for good, people will do good things because they have compassion for their fellow man, because you would not want to do to others what you don't want doe to you. Do you think that if by some stroke of luck there was never any such thing as religion, that people would act differently as far as treating each other kindly? Now bring in religion, multiple religions so that disagreements over who has the right God begins to brew, stir in rigid guidelines, add a pinch of dogma, and a large dose of close mindedness, can you begin to feel the poison take effect?

Are you serious? At the core of all of the religions you have specifically pointed to there is a central tenet of moral behavior. It is empirical fact that certain people will adhere to these moral tenets and THUS be better better people. This means that religion is responsible for good. People will do good things because they have compassion? I suppose you think compassion is just some innate quality of mankind and that war was invented just for the hell of it?


Read up on some sociology and then maybe you will see why your arguments don't actually correspond with history. The greater the population density the more disagreements you have in the same land area. The more elaborate the institutions the more possibility for abuse that you have. With sufficiently large populations all possibilities greater than zero approach certainty in terms of the likelihood of their occurrence. Religion does not do anything differently than any other large scale institution.


Family has been something that people argued over since the advent of recorded history (almost certainly before). Can you think that without family people would treat each other differently? Look at how much the disagreements over family and the revenge that has taken place over the years has increased the total amount of violence in society. Clearly family is evil and should be banished. This is what your argument amounts to; See any problems with it?


MTF

 

[Riverwolf]

Since the main components of religion are mythology, dogma, and doctrines, it's kind of hard to focus on other thing irrational, but I'll give it a try.

That a supreme creator would sit and watch his creations suffer and die for thousands of years and then show himself a mer 2000 years ago, and show himself in a backwards desert part of the world to ignorant shepherds instead of a thriving civilization as China was at that time, is irrational!!

Agreed. Few actually believe such nonsense. This is using mythology, which I have asked you not to do.

By the way, it's also irrational to take the anthropomorphizing of God used in Hebrew literature literally, as God, by the nature of God, cannot have human qualities of any kind.

That a supreme creator would remain hidden, even from those who seek him, thereby creating thousands of varying beliefs all in direct conflict with each other is irrational!!

Agreed. But lots of factual concepts contradict each other, yet they still exist. (That was a horrible way of wording it, so I'll just ask this: what color is a rainbow?)

I say that God is only hidden from those who do not know where to look. It is a truth that you cannot obtain good answers if you don't ask the right questions and then honestly and vigorously seek the answers.

(BTW, this is the only point you've made that fits my criteria, and is a valid question which I cannot answer fully.)

That the wrong done by two people Adam and Eve, would carry over and effect each succeeding generation (the fall of man) is irrational!!! Thats like saying because my great grandfather committed crime, my sons sons, would have to pay for the crime.

But, just by the law of cause and effect, you would, depending on your great-grandfather's crime, still have to suffer the consequences IF your grandfather and father (and mothers) did nothing to fix them.

Again, you've used mythology.

By the way, have you heard the theory that the story of Adam and Eve was based on the "fall" from hunter-gathering societies to farming?

That a wold wide flood lasted a year, and a wooden boat carrying all the species of the planet, despite overwhelming scientific evidence, is irrational.

Again, we are agreed. Since nearly every culture has a flood story to tell, it is rational to conclude they are all based on SOMETHING that happened in real life, but none of the stories accurately recount what happened. There are many theories about what flood the various stories around the world is based on, but it is a general consensus that the Biblical flood story (derived from Babylonian flood myths) is based on the Black Sea deluge, which occured c.5600 B.C.E.

A third time, you use mythology.

 

[Riverwolf]

A belief in a Mythological being that watches your every move. That people would shape their and their children's lives based on an unseen, never to be proven being, and castigate others because they don't share their belief are just some of these "magical" quality's.

Where did you hear that all religions are like this? Mythologies are simply stories, all fictional. All educated people, religious or not, understand this.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes lets, maybe we can save some children a horrid fate!!

Are you even aware that you're using the EXACT same kind of thinking as the father who wanted to save his daughter from a horrid fate?

 

[Riverwolf]

Funny, anything you don't agree with you label as bigotry. I'll post as much repetition as I care to, if it bothers you, don't read it or respond to it. I can see that anything thats rubs against your religious belief will appear illogical to you.

Storm and I disagree on spiritual matters. (We haven't debated them as of yet, but we do not belong to the same Spiritual Path.) She has not called me a bigot.

She has also not called many of the Christians here bigots, and neither has she called many atheists here bigots.

 

[J Bryson]

She also gets along rather well with Katzpur and Apex, both Mormons, though she gets into it with Apex every now and then.

 

[Riverwolf]

because you would not want to do to others what you don't want doe to you.

You do realize that this philosophy started with the very religions you're bashing?

By the way, we aren't always born compassionate; many children are born utterly selfish and uncaring.

 

[richardlowellt]

Storm and I disagree on spiritual matters. (We haven't debated them as of yet, but we do not belong to the same Spiritual Path.) She has not called me a bigot.

She has also not called many of the Christians here bigots, and neither has she called many atheists here bigots.

Because she doesn't care for my spin on religion, she has labeled me a bigot among other things, but thats ok, I guess it must always be the world according to Storm.

 

[richardlowellt]

It's just as likely that without religious motivation, less good will be done.

Not a chance!!

 

[richardlowellt]

More ad hom. Was there a tutorial on trolls.com or something? Or is it just that bigots have nothing else to fall back on?

We bigots have plenty to fall back on, though much of it does not fit into that tiny restrictive universe you inhabit.

 

[J Bryson]

Not a chance!!

Why?

Why would the ending of religion cause less evil, but not less good?

 

[richardlowellt]

Are you serious? At the core of all of the religions you have specifically pointed to there is a central tenet of moral behavior. It is empirical fact that certain people will adhere to these moral tenets and THUS be better better people. This means that religion is responsible for good. People will do good things because they have compassion? I suppose you think compassion is just some innate quality of mankind and that war was invented just for the hell of it?


Read up on some sociology and then maybe you will see why your arguments don't actually correspond with history. The greater the population density the more disagreements you have in the same land area. The more elaborate the institutions the more possibility for abuse that you have. With sufficiently large populations all possibilities greater than zero approach certainty in terms of the likelihood of their occurrence. Religion does not do anything differently than any other large scale institution.


Family has been something that people argued over since the advent of recorded history (almost certainly before). Can you think that without family people would treat each other differently? Look at how much the disagreements over family and the revenge that has taken place over the years has increased the total amount of violence in society. Clearly family is evil and should be banished. This is what your argument amounts to; See any problems with it?


MTF

Spoken like a true Christian, you must be or you won't make such insulting statements like religious people 'MUST' be better people. Do you even realize how bigoted that statement is, I guess not. Your right up there with George Bush senior who thinks Atheists should not be allowed to vote.

Compassion IS an innate quality in mankind and if you read a little history yourself you will see how many wars where fueled by religion.