horrors of religion

[richardlowellt]

OF COURSE religious people sometimes do bad things. Would you like to know why? Because sometimes PEOPLE do bad things, and the vast majority of people are religious. Correlation =/= causation.

Lets speak to the problem of religion and the damage it does to the young mind. The young mind is so vulnerable and to fill it with fear and guilt is a crime. The emotional damage that ca be inflicted usually stays with the person for life. Religion does this, instead of waiting until the child is old enough to make rational decisions, if fills their heads with fear. I every case, of course not, but enough so that it poisons way to many young minds.


However, the vast majority of the religious are good, kind, decent people. Again, this is because the vast majority of people are good, kind, and decent, and the vast majority of people are religious.


These people would be good, kind, decent people without religion, it doesn't take religion to make one kind.


Religion is no more to be applauded for the overwhelming decency of its members than it is to be blamed for the minority of monsters. Again, correlation does not equal causation.[/QUOTE]

That religion is and has been the cause of horrible acts is fact, we can all dredge up our favorite horror stories of things done in the name of religion.

The poison I speak of is not only on the individual level, it can focus as well on the efforts of religion to block every medical and scientific advancement down through our history. From an flat earth that had the sun revolving around it, to stem cell and genetic research.

 

[Storm]

Lets speak to the problem of religion and the damage it does to the young mind. The young mind is so vulnerable and to fill it with fear and guilt is a crime. The emotional damage that ca be inflicted usually stays with the person for life. Religion does this, instead of waiting until the child is old enough to make rational decisions, if fills their heads with fear. I every case, of course not, but enough so that it poisons way to many young minds.

Yes, sometimes religion gets abused. I said that. But to paint all religion as abusive is to do precisely what I accused you of.

On a side note, I find the argument that religion = child abuse to be deeply offensive. Not as a religious person, primarily, but as a survivor of real child abuse. I would very much appreciate it if you steered clear of that line of argument.

These people would be good, kind, decent people without religion, it doesn't take religion to make one kind.

I said exactly that. Way to miss the point.

That religion is and has been the cause of horrible acts is fact, we can all dredge up our favorite horror stories of things done in the name of religion.

No, it isn't. Religion is not the cause, anymore than atheism or clowning are the causes of the atrocities Kathryn mentioned.

What magical quality does religion possess (in your mind at least) that makes it different from every other cultural institution?

The poison I speak of is not only on the individual level, it can focus as well on the efforts of religion to block every medical and scientific advancement down through our history. From an flat earth that had the sun revolving around it, to stem cell and genetic research.

Again you paint with too broad a brush. Relatively few sects of staggeringly few (2 that I know of) religions take such action.

And I will repeat my point that if religion poisoned everything, as you claim, nobody would be exempt, and MLK would have never existed.

ETA: Would you like a tutorial on the quote function? Proper utilization would make your posts much easier to follow.

 

[richardlowellt]

Lots.

Show me where religion is inherently irrational. Do not use mythology, dogma, or doctrines.

Since the main components of religion are mythology, dogma, and doctrines, it's kind of hard to focus on other thing irrational, but I'll give it a try.

That a supreme creator would sit and watch his creations suffer and die for thousands of years and then show himself a mer 2000 years ago, and show himself in a backwards desert part of the world to ignorant shepherds instead of a thriving civilization as China was at that time, is irrational!!

That a supreme creator would remain hidden, even from those who seek him, thereby creating thousands of varying beliefs all in direct conflict with each other is irrational!!

That the wrong done by two people Adam and Eve, would carry over and effect each succeeding generation (the fall of man) is irrational!!! Thats like saying because my great grandfather committed crime, my sons sons, would have to pay for the crime.


That a wold wide flood lasted a year, and a wooden boat carrying all the species of the planet, despite overwhelming scientific evidence, is irrational.

 

[Storm]

Since the main components of religion are mythology, dogma, and doctrines, it's kind of hard to focus on other thing irrational, but I'll give it a try.

That a supreme creator would sit and watch his creations suffer and die for thousands of years and then show himself a mer 2000 years ago, and show himself in a backwards desert part of the world to ignorant shepherds instead of a thriving civilization as China was at that time, is irrational!!

That a supreme creator would remain hidden, even from those who seek him, thereby creating thousands of varying beliefs all in direct conflict with each other is irrational!!

That the wrong done by two people Adam and Eve, would carry over and effect each succeeding generation (the fall of man) is irrational!!! Thats like saying because my great grandfather committed crime, my sons sons, would have to pay for the crime.


That a wold wide flood lasted a year, and a wooden boat carrying all the species of the planet, despite overwhelming scientific evidence, is irrational.

Christianity is not all religion.

 

[Storm]

Richard, I know we were responding at the same time, so I'm reposting this to make sure you don't miss it:

Lets speak to the problem of religion and the damage it does to the young mind. The young mind is so vulnerable and to fill it with fear and guilt is a crime. The emotional damage that ca be inflicted usually stays with the person for life. Religion does this, instead of waiting until the child is old enough to make rational decisions, if fills their heads with fear. I every case, of course not, but enough so that it poisons way to many young minds.

Yes, sometimes religion gets abused. I said that. But to paint all religion as abusive is to do precisely what I accused you of.

On a side note, I find the argument that religion = child abuse to be deeply offensive. Not as a religious person, primarily, but as a survivor of real child abuse. I would very much appreciate it if you steered clear of that line of argument.

These people would be good, kind, decent people without religion, it doesn't take religion to make one kind.

I said exactly that. Way to miss the point.

That religion is and has been the cause of horrible acts is fact, we can all dredge up our favorite horror stories of things done in the name of religion.

No, it isn't. Religion is not the cause, anymore than atheism or clowning are the causes of the atrocities Kathryn mentioned.

What magical quality does religion possess (in your mind at least) that makes it different from every other cultural institution?

The poison I speak of is not only on the individual level, it can focus as well on the efforts of religion to block every medical and scientific advancement down through our history. From an flat earth that had the sun revolving around it, to stem cell and genetic research.

Again you paint with too broad a brush. Relatively few sects of staggeringly few (2 that I know of) religions take such action.

And I will repeat my point that if religion poisoned everything, as you claim, nobody would be exempt, and MLK would have never existed.

ETA: Would you like a tutorial on the quote function? Proper utilization would make your posts much easier to follow.

 

[richardlowellt]

On a side note, I find the argument that religion = child abuse to be deeply offensive. Not as a religious person, primarily, but as a survivor of real child abuse. I would very much appreciate it if you steered clear of that line of argument.

If you find arguments and points of view offensive then perhaps you should stay clear of these kinds of forums

No, it isn't. Religion is not the cause, anymore than atheism or clowning are the causes of the atrocities Kathryn mentioned.

What magical quality does religion possess (in your mind at least) that makes it different from every other cultural institution?

A belief in a Mythological being that watches your every move. That people would shape their and their children's lives based on an unseen, never to be proven being, and castigate others because they don't share their belief are just some of these "magical" quality's.



Again you paint with too broad a brush. Relatively few sects of staggeringly few (2 that I know of) religions take such action.

And I will repeat my point that if religion poisoned everything, as you claim, nobody would be exempt, and MLK would have never existed.

ETA: Would you like a tutorial on the quote function? Proper utilization would make your posts much easier to follow.[/QUOTE]

If my post are difficult to follow, ignore them!!!

 

[Storm]

If you find arguments and points of view offensive then perhaps you should stay clear of these kinds of forums

No. As a survivor, I have an obligation to speak out. As a religious person, I have the obligation to speak out. As a member of this forum, I have the right to be heard, and my choices on where and when to speak are not subject to your approval.

A belief in a Mythological being that watches your every move. That people would shape their and their children's lives based on an unseen, never to be proven being, and castigate others because they don't share their belief are just some of these "magical" quality's.

Not universal to religion, proving my point (once again) that your entire line of argument is a stereotype.

Now, what magical quality is inherent to this belief that renders it responsible for only bad actions? If you're going to blame it for the negative, you must also laud it for the positive. At least, you must if you want to display the slightest shred of intellectual honesty.

If my post are difficult to follow, ignore them!!!

Well. So much for courtesy. I was offering you assistance as a friendly gesture. When you quote me with no indication that's what you're doing, other readers might mistake my words for yours. Also, proper quotation makes it easier to find your responses to what I'm saying, and I don't want to miss one of your points when skimming over my own.

Your response merely reveals your desperation to cling to your fallacious bigotry. I'm sure you'd love it if I ignored your posts. But I won't.

Now, would you like to address my points, or have a full blown temper tantrum?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Richard,
You still seem to be stuck on an Abrahamic type of God.
Your descriptions ( "A belief in a Mythological being that watches your every move. That people would shape their and their children's lives based on an unseen, never to be proven being, and castigate others because they don't share their belief are just some of these "magical" quality's.")
do not match all religions. Yet you still insist on lumping them all together.

This attitude does nothing to bolster your argument.

 

[Storm]

Richard,
You still seem to be stuck on an Abrahamic type of God.
Your descriptions ( "A belief in a Mythological being that watches your every move. That people would shape their and their children's lives based on an unseen, never to be proven being, and castigate others because they don't share their belief are just some of these "magical" quality's.")
do not match all religions. Yet you still insist on lumping them all together.

This attitude does nothing to bolster your argument.

It's not even true of all Abrahamics. I'm getting the distinct impression that Richard is one of those infantile atheists who doesn't truly disbelieve, but had a bad experience with some religious people, and blames God for it.

 

[Storm]

Oh, and this?

and castigate others because they don't share their belief

Is precisely what you are doing, Richard.

 

[richardlowellt]

Richard,
You still seem to be stuck on an Abrahamic type of God.
Your descriptions ( "A belief in a Mythological being that watches your every move. That people would shape their and their children's lives based on an unseen, never to be proven being, and castigate others because they don't share their belief are just some of these "magical" quality's.")
do not match all religions. Yet you still insist on lumping them all together.

This attitude does nothing to bolster your argument.

You've made me see the error of my ways, let me rephrase------ALL CHRISTIAN, MUSLIM, AND JEWISH RELIGIONS, OR ANY RELIGION WITH A GOD AS THE CENTRAL COMPONENT POISONS EVERYTHING. I hope that reads better for you.

 

[richardlowellt]

No. As a survivor, I have an obligation to speak out. As a religious person, I have the obligation to speak out. As a member of this forum, I have the right to be heard, and my choices on where and when to speak are not subject to your approval.


Not universal to religion, proving my point (once again) that your entire line of argument is a stereotype.

Now, what magical quality is inherent to this belief that renders it responsible for only bad actions? If you're going to blame it for the negative, you must also laud it for the positive. At least, you must if you want to display the slightest shred of intellectual honesty.


Well. So much for courtesy. I was offering you assistance as a friendly gesture. When you quote me with no indication that's what you're doing, other readers might mistake my words for yours. Also, proper quotation makes it easier to find your responses to what I'm saying, and I don't want to miss one of your points when skimming over my own.

Your response merely reveals your desperation to cling to your fallacious bigotry. I'm sure you'd love it if I ignored your posts. But I won't.

Now, would you like to address my points, or have a full blown temper tantrum?

Of course you have the right to speak out and be heard but you can't ask me to "Not go there" because it offends you. I have the same rights as you do.


In my opinion religion has no redeeming qualities. Any good that may come from religion could have been achieved without religion, so we are left with the down side of religion, and I have already given you and other a long list of the down side.

Now you need to show me my fallacy's, what have i said about religion that is untrue?

 

[Humanistheart]

Although an extreme case this certainly points to the danger that religion plays when a belief is taken to the extreme. A father prayed instead of taking his 11 year old to the hospital because he couldn't seek medical help without disobeying God. "I can't do that because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed. If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God. God promises in the bible to heal, for that to take place in our lives we have to live on God's instructions. His daughter had diabetes and at the time could not walk, talk, eat , or speak. She died on the floor as people surrounded her and prayed. If this is not an example of how religion can be a poison, please tell me why.

This is the kind of thing that makes mesupport mandatory birth controll laws. People shouldn't be allowed to breed unless they can be tested and proved to be both capable and willing to take care of their offspring. That's just sick.

 

[richardlowellt]

This is the kind of thing that makes mesupport mandatory birth controll laws. People shouldn't be allowed to breed unless they can be tested and proved to be both capable and willing to take care of their offspring. That's just sick.

That is a great idea, I'll certainly vote for it. Three years ago in the state of Maine a women set the oven on 425 and put her 4 month old baby girl in to drive out the devil, God had come to her in a vision and told her the baby had a demon inside and this was the only way to rid the child of the demon. Maybe they should also be tested for religious fanaticism.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

This is the kind of thing that makes mesupport mandatory birth controll laws. People shouldn't be allowed to breed unless they can be tested and proved to be both capable and willing to take care of their offspring. That's just sick.

And what standards do we use for such a thing?

Where do we draw the line and tell someone they can't have children because someone is afraid they might harm them?

Who will do the judging and evaluating Atheists, Christians, Democrats, Republicans?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

That is a great idea, I'll certainly vote for it . . . Maybe they should also be tested for religious fanaticism.

Yes lets have ourselves a good old fashioned witch hunt!

 

[richardlowellt]

Yes lets have ourselves a good old fashioned witch hunt!

Yes lets, maybe we can save some children a horrid fate!!

 

[Storm]

In my opinion religion has no redeeming qualities. Any good that may come from religion could have been achieved without religion, so we are left with the down side of religion, and I have already given you and other a long list of the down side.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either religion is responsible for the good AND the bad, or it is responsible for neither. All the harm you listed also could have been done without religion.

Now you need to show me my fallacy's,

I have already done so.

what have i said about religion that is untrue?

That it poisons everything.

 

[richardlowellt]

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either religion is responsible for the good AND the bad, or it is responsible for neither. All the harm you listed also could have been done without religion.


I have already done so.


That it poisons everything.

Of course I can have my cake and eat it all, religion is not responsible for good, people will do good things because they have compassion for their fellow man, because you would not want to do to others what you don't want doe to you. Do you think that if by some stroke of luck there was never any such thing as religion, that people would act differently as far as treating each other kindly? Now bring in religion, multiple religions so that disagreements over who has the right God begins to brew, stir in rigid guidelines, add a pinch of dogma, and a large dose of close mindedness, can you begin to feel the poison take effect?

 

[Storm]

If you have nothing new to say, why bother posting? Repetition does not make your bigotry any more logical or persuasive.