horrors of religion

[richardlowellt]

Agreed. Few actually believe such nonsense. This is using mythology, which I have asked you not to do.

By the way, it's also irrational to take the anthropomorphizing of God used in Hebrew literature literally, as God, by the nature of God, cannot have human qualities of any kind.



Agreed. But lots of factual concepts contradict each other, yet they still exist. (That was a horrible way of wording it, so I'll just ask this: what color is a rainbow?)

I say that God is only hidden from those who do not know where to look. It is a truth that you cannot obtain good answers if you don't ask the right questions and then honestly and vigorously seek the answers.

(BTW, this is the only point you've made that fits my criteria, and is a valid question which I cannot answer fully.)



But, just by the law of cause and effect, you would, depending on your great-grandfather's crime, still have to suffer the consequences IF your grandfather and father (and mothers) did nothing to fix them.

Again, you've used mythology.

By the way, have you heard the theory that the story of Adam and Eve was based on the "fall" from hunter-gathering societies to farming?



Again, we are agreed. Since nearly every culture has a flood story to tell, it is rational to conclude they are all based on SOMETHING that happened in real life, but none of the stories accurately recount what happened. There are many theories about what flood the various stories around the world is based on, but it is a general consensus that the Biblical flood story (derived from Babylonian flood myths) is based on the Black Sea deluge, which occured c.5600 B.C.E.

A third time, you use mythology.

Since all religions are based on Mythology, your question is impossible to answer.

I'm not talking about local flood stories but of the flood that encompassed the globe, the one that covered the earth with 13,5 billion cubic MILES of extra water.

 

[richardlowellt]

You do realize that this philosophy started with the very religions you're bashing?

By the way, we aren't always born compassionate; many children are born utterly selfish and uncaring.

If this is the philosophy then who needs religion?

What a silly statement, the new born have a blank slate waiting to have something imprinted on it. Children are not born selfish and uncaring, only a parent can instill those qualities.

 

[Riverwolf]

Since all religions are based on Mythology, your question is impossible to answer.

Mythologies are STORIES in which gods play important roles.

Prove to me that all religions are based on such mythologies, as many aren't.

I'm not talking about local flood stories but of the flood that encompassed the globe, the one that covered the earth with 13,5 billion cubic MILES of extra water.

There are tons of Jews and Christians who recognize the fact that such a flood is impossible and never happened.

 

[Riverwolf]

If this is the philosophy then who needs religion?

Many do, as an atheist here has pointed out to me that the golden rule alone, and as Jesus worded, is not enough.

What a silly statement, the new born have a blank slate waiting to have something imprinted on it. Children are not born selfish and uncaring, only a parent can instill those qualities.

Prove it.

 

[Humanistheart]

That is a great idea, I'll certainly vote for it. Three years ago in the state of Maine a women set the oven on 425 and put her 4 month old baby girl in to drive out the devil, God had come to her in a vision and told her the baby had a demon inside and this was the only way to rid the child of the demon. Maybe they should also be tested for religious fanaticism.

And did you hear about the recent incedent with the mother who'd been released from the psych ward prematuraly and literally ate her baby's brains?

 

[Kathryn]

What a silly statement, the new born have a blank slate waiting to have something imprinted on it. Children are not born selfish and uncaring, only a parent can instill those qualities.

Just curious - do you have children of your own?

 

[Kathryn]

And did you hear about the recent incedent with the mother who'd been released from the psych ward prematuraly and literally ate her baby's brains?

Good point - these people are INSANE.

I used to be an art therapist and I worked on the maximum security ward with the criminally insane at Rusk State Mental Hospital (the woman who drowned her five kids in Texas is now on that same ward, so that gives you some idea of the type of patients I worked with).

Religion didn't make them that way. Their mental illness makes them that way.

Stalin was probably insane. Idi Amin was definitely insane. Look at that idiot Kim Jung Il (is it just me or is his head wayyyyyyyyy too big for his body?) - he's probably insane also. All three of those goobers are/were atheists - did a lack of religious beliefs make them insane?

Though some would argue (me right along with them) that a LACK of religious beliefs DEFINITELY influenced THEIR behavior - in a most negative manner!

 

[monta]

Until we have atheists who were raised as such we can't really make a judgement on what pushed dictators over the edge their lack of belief in a god (or alleged lack of belief in some cases) at the end of their life or their strict religious upbringing in their formative years.

And as for the N.Koreans President Kim Il Sung, Eternal Sun of Juche the Juche doctrine looks a lot like religion to me, but then I have my own bias.

 

[Nepenthe]

Until we have atheists who were raised as such we can't really make a judgement on what pushed dictators over the edge their lack of belief in a god (or alleged lack of belief in some cases) at the end of their life or their strict religious upbringing in their formative years.

And as for the N.Koreans President Kim Il Sung, Eternal Sun of Juche the Juche doctrine looks a lot like religion to me, but then I have my own bias.

Excellent point! Here's Hitchens arguing that N. Korea is not a secular state but emphatically religious. I hate Hitchens politics, and whatever your view of Hitchens I have to admit the guy is funny, insulting, funny, can drink more than any other human on the planet, can take a punch, oh, and funny.

And Stalin is not a clear cut issue either- he's the poster boy for Communist genocide and all too often used as an example of the atrocities of atheism when his personal views seem to be a bit more complex. There are many well documented Stalin quotes with "all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" but his daughter alleges he was a theist and that he admired Christ. Stalin also worked closely with the Russian Orthodox Church to cement his dictatorship and awarded several priests for their religious contributions. Stalin refused to include any literature critical of religion (I suppose Marx would be an exception if one thought it critical of religion) in his library and was quoted as explicitly denigrating such lit' as "antireligious waste-paper (junk)". He wrote and published poetry which often glorified God.

No, I don't know whether Stalin was a theist/Deist or an agnostic/atheist, but my rambling point is it's clear Stalinism was not the consequence of atheism and was not a particularly driving inspiration for Stalin's atrocities. Simply put, his religious and/or anti-religious views were a bit more complex than is typically interpreted.

And Idi Amin was a muslim. I never knew that was ever a point of contention...
eta: this was in response to Kathryn's post #267 above. Linked here again for you really lazy slackers. I mean c'mon! It's two posts above this one! Lazy...

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Yes lets, maybe we can save some children a horrid fate!!

Shall we burn them at the stake or torture them until they convert to your views?

or shall we do both just to be on the safe side?

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Of course they will do evil anyway, just maybe without fanatical religious beliefs, less evil will be done.

Less evil will be done???

Have you read a newspaper lately or watched the news on T.V.?

How much evil is done very day and not in the name of religion?

I read accounts of local shootings in the Buffalo area daily and none of them are due to religion. Most are due to drugs and gangs.

At least 4 die in gym shooting near Pittsburgh - CNN.com

Cops: Shooting in Buffalo leaves 2 dead, 3 wounded | KXNet.com North Dakota News

 

[richardlowellt]

Just curious - do you have children of your own?

Yes I have two.

 

[richardlowellt]

Shall we burn them at the stake or torture them until they convert to your views?

or shall we do both just to be on the safe side?

Lets try both!!

 

[ChristineES]

If this is the philosophy then who needs religion?

What a silly statement, the new born have a blank slate waiting to have something imprinted on it. Children are not born selfish and uncaring, only a parent can instill those qualities.

Babies are born self centered, they have to be taught that other people matter- along with anything else. But I also believe that we are born with some innate qualities.

 

[Riverwolf]

Lets try both!!

Tell me how this thinking is any different than the kind executed by the Catholic Church during the crusades and witch-hunts.

If you cannot, then I do not see any difference between you two.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Lets try both!!

I guess I will have to get out my copy of Malleus Maleficarum then.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Spoken like a true Christian, you must be or you won't make such insulting statements like religious people 'MUST' be better people. Do you even realize how bigoted that statement is, I guess not. Your right up there with George Bush senior who thinks Atheists should not be allowed to vote.

Compassion IS an innate quality in mankind and if you read a little history yourself you will see how many wars where fueled by religion.

I have very neatly explained my "religious" beliefs on these threads, and it is NOTHING like Christianity. More-over I never once argued that religious people MUST be better people. My argument is that since some people learn ethics from religion, this means that THOSE PEOPLE must be MADE BETTER people as a result of it.

Do you realize how incredibly non-sensical what you did must seem to everyone else? You created a strawman out pure vapor and proceeded to try and burn "mist-man" without even bothering to check and see if you understood the argument correctly. Your contention is that religion contributes nothing positive towards people. I pointed out that for any person for whom their moral development rests upon the existence of religion, then religion must be a positive factor in their life. QED. But you seem to think that this makes me a Christian apologist or a Christian in the closet (Incidentally, I am neither. I am almost allergic to the notion of a personal deity).


Compassion is not an innate quality. Compassion is a learned quality. Read up on some basic psychology and sociology. Maybe you will actually learn something rather than maintaining your biases which amount to little more than the fantasies that you accuse others of protecting. You might want to start with Kohlberg's stages of morality.

Since I studied up on history in college I am aware that there are a lot of wars and conflicts fought in the name of religion. There are also a lot of wars and conflicts fought over money, property, family, national pride, patriotic duty, and morality (perceived insults lead to all manner of conflicts). I suppose all of those things are evil and should be banished too?


Read this carefully: Until you can show how religion differs from all other major institutions and how that specific difference leads to more conflict; there is NOTHING to your case other than smoke and biases.

MTF

 

[Kathryn]

Yes I have two.

And you can honestly say that children are not born selfish?????

Listen, I have five kids and six grandkids. I think of course that every one of them was born adorable and precious. I think a newborn is about as close to God as we can get.

Adorable yes. But unselfish???????? All you have to do is watch two one year olds playing with one toy they both want to see pure selfishness in action. The needs or desires of another never even cross their minds.

 

[Oberon]

The needs or desires of another never even cross their minds.

Rather, the existence of the "other" doesn't even cross their mind. It takes some time for babies to be aware of the "other."

 

[J Bryson]

Rather, the existence of the "other" doesn't even cross their mind. It takes some time for babies to be aware of the "other."

And with no concept of the "other", selfishness is the default position.