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horrors of religion

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Brahman has two meanings, it is part of a class system, Brahman being the highest class, or priest class.

Yet again, you've demonstrated that you know little to nothing about the various religions that are grouped under Hinduism.

You've confused "Brahman" with "Brahmin," and you've miscategorized Brahmins based on knowledge of how western organized religions work.

Brahmins aren't Priests exclusively; the Katha Upanishad names a Brahmin who is a 16 year old rebel: Nachiketa, whose spiritual teacher was Death.

Brahman is also a three in one God, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, even though we are talking about three in one, it still paints a picture of a God or Gods.

Yet another common mistake made by those who do not understand the various religions. (Including myself, until I actually started studying Hinduism.)

"The Lord is the Supreme Reality."
-Ishopanishad

If what people believe is no concern of yours, then why did YOU bring up the fact that many Christians and jews you knew, didn't believe in a Global flood???

Because they've said so. Whether or not they do is not a concern of mine; that doesn't mean I am not aware of what they've said, either in debates with me, or with others.

I brought it up because I wanted you to understand that there are LOTS of non-literalist Christians and Jews.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Yet again, you've demonstrated that you know little to nothing about the various religions that are grouped under Hinduism.

You've confused "Brahman" with "Brahmin," and you've miscategorized Brahmins based on knowledge of how western organized religions work.

Brahmins aren't Priests exclusively; the Katha Upanishad names a Brahmin who is a 16 year old rebel: Nachiketa, whose spiritual teacher was Death.



Yet another common mistake made by those who do not understand the various religions. (Including myself, until I actually started studying Hinduism.)

"The Lord is the Supreme Reality."
-Ishopanishad



Because they've said so. Whether or not they do is not a concern of mine; that doesn't mean I am not aware of what they've said, either in debates with me, or with others.

I brought it up because I wanted you to understand that there are LOTS of non-literalist Christians and Jews.

Well for a moment I thought you knew what you where talking about, but now I can see how confused you really are. BRAHMAN is in fact the word you are looking for not BRAHMIN. I see absolutely zero reference to BRAHMIN, in any Hindu text. Those that follow Hinduism have a caste system made up of 4 caste's the first is BRAHMAN, the elite caste, sometimes referred to as (the priest caste) then comes Kshatrivas, warriors and rulers, third is Vaisvas merchants and farmers, and last Shudras, laborers. You are born into these caste's and cannot advance, unless through rebirth good Karma allows it.

BRAHMAN is a three in one God as I have explained, it also refers to all Good and can encompasses all things. Must I do all your work for you.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Which follows through my experiences with them. I am in no way disagreeing with the studies.

I'm just saying that insensitivity is selfishness.



Not quite; the emotion was desire. Thoughts aren't emotions.

You can't think emotions; you FEEL them.

Insensate does not mean insensitive, it means lack of sense or reason, again think of a blank slate!!!

It wasn't a thought it was an action taken because of an emotion.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Brahmins aren't Priests exclusively

IT'S BRAHMANS AND NO THEY ARE NOT PRIESTS, THE ELETE CASTE SYSTEM IS REFERRED TO AS (THE PRIEST CASTE)

Yet another common mistake made by those who do not understand the various religions. (Including myself, until I actually started studying Hinduism.)

"The Lord is the Supreme Reality."
-Ishopanishad


HINDU'S HAVE NO SUPREME LORD, IT'S A RELIGION WITHOUT A SINGLE GOD FIGURE.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well for a moment I thought you knew what you where talking about, but now I can see how confused you really are. BRAHMAN is in fact the word you are looking for not BRAHMIN. I see absolutely zero reference to BRAHMIN, in any Hindu text. Those that follow Hinduism have a caste system made up of 4 caste's the first is BRAHMAN, the elite caste, sometimes referred to as (the priest caste) then comes Kshatrivas, warriors and rulers, third is Vaisvas merchants and farmers, and last Shudras, laborers. You are born into these caste's and cannot advance, unless through rebirth good Karma allows it.

BRAHMAN is a three in one God as I have explained, it also refers to all Good and can encompasses all things. Must I do all your work for you.

I'm afraid my studies contradict most of this nonsense. The only things you've said that agree with my studies is your naming of the four castes and what they generally represent.

"GARGI: Yajnavalkya, as a warrior from Kashi or Videha rises with a bow and arrow to fell his opponent, I rise to fell you with two questions.

YAJNAVALKYA: Ask them, Gargi.

GARGI: That which is above heaven and below the earth, which is also between heaven and earth, which is the same through past, present, and future, in what is that woven, warp, and woof? Tell me, Yajnavalkya.

YAJNAVALKYA: That which is above heaven and below earth, which is also between heaven and earth, which is the saem through past, present, and future - that is woven, warp, and woof, in space.

GARGI: My first question is answered well. Now for my second question.

YAJNAVALKYA: Ask, Gargi.

GARGI: In what is space itself woven, warp, and woof? Tell me, Yajnavalkya.

YAJNAVALKYA: The sages call it Aksara, the Imperishable. It is neither big nor small, neither long nor short, neither hot nor cold, neither bright nor dark, neither air nor space. It is without attachment, without taste, smell, or touch, without eyes, ears, tongue, mouth, breath, or mind, without movement, without limitation, without inside or outside. It consumes nothing, and nothing consumes it.

In perfect accord with the will of the Imperishable, sun and moon make their orbits; heaven and earth remain in place; moments, hours, days, nights, fortnights, months, and seasons become years; rivers starting from the snow-clad mountains flow east and west, north and south, to the sea. (Side note: assuming you're actually reading this, I expect you to be mature and ignore the obvious scientific inaccuracy in this portion; the actual movements of planets and stars is irrelevant to the lesson.)

Without knowing the Imperishable, Gargi, whoever performs rites and ceremonies and undergoes austerities, even for many years, reaps little benefit, because rites, ceremonies, and austerities are all perishable. Whosoever dies without knowing the Imperishable dies in a pitiable state; but those who know the Imperishable attain immortality when the body is shed at death.

The Imperishable is the seer, Gargi, though unseen; the hearer, though unheard; the thinker, though unthought; the knower, though unknown. Nothing other than the Imperishable can see, hear, think, or know. It is in the Imperishable that space is woven, warp, and woof.

GARGI: Venerable brahmins, count yourselves fortunate if you get away with merely paying this man homage. No one can defeat Yajnavalkya in debate about Brahman."
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

As for the so-called "caste" system... (or, more properly, Varnasrama Dharma)

"The social orders are (1) Brahmins - intellectuals or priestly people; (2) Ksatriyas - politicians, administrators, and warriors; (3) Vaisyas - farmers, merchants, or economists; and (4) Shudras - laborers and artisans. Individuals naturally fit into one or more of these occupational divisions ... based on their qualifications and work. It should be emphasized that the original system was based upon quality and inclination, not on birth."
-Steven J. Rosen, "Essential Hinduism"
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Brahmins aren't Priests exclusively

IT'S BRAHMANS AND NO THEY ARE NOT PRIESTS, THE ELETE CASTE SYSTEM IS REFERRED TO AS (THE PRIEST CASTE)

Yet another common mistake made by those who do not understand the various religions. (Including myself, until I actually started studying Hinduism.)

"The Lord is the Supreme Reality."
-Ishopanishad


HINDU'S HAVE NO SUPREME LORD, IT'S A RELIGION WITHOUT A SINGLE GOD FIGURE.

I just gave you a quote from a very important Hindu text: the Isho Upanishad. The entire verse reads:

"The Lord is enshrined in the hearts of all;
The Lord is the Supreme Reality.
Rejoice in Him through renunciation;
Covet nothing; all belong to the Lord."

Another translation of the same verse reads:

"All this—whatever exists in this changing universe—should be
covered by the Lord. Protect the Self by renunciation. Lust not
after any man's wealth."

And by the way, Hinduism isn't a single religion. Calling it one is like saying Abrahamism is a single religion, lumping Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Baha'is all into one religion.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Insensate does not mean insensitive, it means lack of sense or reason, again think of a blank slate!!!

The nature of the blank slate is selfishness.

The problem is you're constantly equating selfishness with bad and selflessness with good.

It wasn't a thought it was an action taken because of an emotion.

The emotion was desire. Selflessness was the nature of the act.
 
Children aren't born good or evil they are not completely blank slates either,


Show me the research that shows a newborn's mind is NOT a blank slate.

I am quite suprised that this is even a contention, it has been well documented that cognitive development begins in utero, just look it up.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
I'm afraid my studies contradict most of this nonsense. The only things you've said that agree with my studies is your naming of the four castes and what they generally represent.

"GARGI: Yajnavalkya, as a warrior from Kashi or Videha rises with a bow and arrow to fell his opponent, I rise to fell you with two questions.

YAJNAVALKYA: Ask them, Gargi.

GARGI: That which is above heaven and below the earth, which is also between heaven and earth, which is the same through past, present, and future, in what is that woven, warp, and woof? Tell me, Yajnavalkya.

YAJNAVALKYA: That which is above heaven and below earth, which is also between heaven and earth, which is the saem through past, present, and future - that is woven, warp, and woof, in space.

GARGI: My first question is answered well. Now for my second question.

YAJNAVALKYA: Ask, Gargi.

GARGI: In what is space itself woven, warp, and woof? Tell me, Yajnavalkya.

YAJNAVALKYA: The sages call it Aksara, the Imperishable. It is neither big nor small, neither long nor short, neither hot nor cold, neither bright nor dark, neither air nor space. It is without attachment, without taste, smell, or touch, without eyes, ears, tongue, mouth, breath, or mind, without movement, without limitation, without inside or outside. It consumes nothing, and nothing consumes it.

In perfect accord with the will of the Imperishable, sun and moon make their orbits; heaven and earth remain in place; moments, hours, days, nights, fortnights, months, and seasons become years; rivers starting from the snow-clad mountains flow east and west, north and south, to the sea. (Side note: assuming you're actually reading this, I expect you to be mature and ignore the obvious scientific inaccuracy in this portion; the actual movements of planets and stars is irrelevant to the lesson.)

Without knowing the Imperishable, Gargi, whoever performs rites and ceremonies and undergoes austerities, even for many years, reaps little benefit, because rites, ceremonies, and austerities are all perishable. Whosoever dies without knowing the Imperishable dies in a pitiable state; but those who know the Imperishable attain immortality when the body is shed at death.

The Imperishable is the seer, Gargi, though unseen; the hearer, though unheard; the thinker, though unthought; the knower, though unknown. Nothing other than the Imperishable can see, hear, think, or know. It is in the Imperishable that space is woven, warp, and woof.

GARGI: Venerable brahmins, count yourselves fortunate if you get away with merely paying this man homage. No one can defeat Yajnavalkya in debate about Brahman."
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

As for the so-called "caste" system... (or, more properly, Varnasrama Dharma)

"The social orders are (1) Brahmins - intellectuals or priestly people; (2) Ksatriyas - politicians, administrators, and warriors; (3) Vaisyas - farmers, merchants, or economists; and (4) Shudras - laborers and artisans. Individuals naturally fit into one or more of these occupational divisions ... based on their qualifications and work. It should be emphasized that the original system was based upon quality and inclination, not on birth."
-Steven J. Rosen, "Essential Hinduism"

Hard to believe that someone who was suppose to have studies this religion can be so wrong. You consistently use BrahMIN, instead of BrahMAN. Here from ABOUT.COM The ultimate goal and absolute of Hinduism is termed BRAHMAN.

BrahMAN is the ultimate reality, all reality has its source in Brahman, all reality has its grounding substance is Brahman, It is in Brahman that all reality has its ultimate repose.

Further information you have gotten wrong---The Hindu caste system defines a persons position in society as determined by their BIRTH!!!

Do a little more research and you'll see I'm correct.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
And that's is the reason why religion is not inherently at fault here.

Then lets try this---Because of the rigid caste system and HINDU BELIEFS, 10 million girls have been killed BY THEIR PARENTS in the last 20 years. 80% of India are Hindu. To me this is just more ammunition in showing how a religion can poison, now tell me this isn't the fault of religion!!!
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Hard to believe that someone who was suppose to have studies this religion can be so wrong. You consistently use BrahMIN, instead of BrahMAN. Here from ABOUT.COM The ultimate goal and absolute of Hinduism is termed BRAHMAN.

BrahMAN is the ultimate reality, all reality has its source in Brahman, all reality has its grounding substance is Brahman, It is in Brahman that all reality has its ultimate repose.

Further information you have gotten wrong---The Hindu caste system defines a persons position in society as determined by their BIRTH!!!

Do a little more research and you'll see I'm correct.

Dude... you're using about.com instead of scholars and those who have actually studied under gurus? :facepalm: I'm starting to doubt that you're even reading my posts (and I mean really READING), and just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Speaking of which, that thing from about.com is referring solely to Brahman, the Supreme Reality, not Brahmins, who are spiritual and intellectual people.

I'll have you know that no Hindu I've talked to on these forums has contradicted what I have said. I have thus far quoted ACTUAL Hindu scripture and cited a man who has studied under a Vaishnavic guru. I'll take their word over that of about.com any day.

My studies of the religion are far from complete; I currently have three books on hold from my local library which should be coming in within the next couple of days. They will confirm the original system of varnashrama dharma, and I will get back to you with what they say.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Then lets try this---Because of the rigid caste system and HINDU BELIEFS, 10 million girls have been killed BY THEIR PARENTS in the last 20 years. 80% of India are Hindu. To me this is just more ammunition in showing how a religion can poison, now tell me this isn't the fault of religion!!!

Prove to me that this has happened because of the Hindu religion; so far you've stated a corelation (that frankly sounds exaggerated and therefore unconvincing, because the Indian population would suffer drastically if 10 million girls were killed) that is just as stupid as the stance that Doom caused the Columbine shootings.

All my studies of it have shown, and Scripture backs this up, by the way, that Hindu religions require COMPLETE nonviolence to ANY living creature: man, woman, child, insect, spider, cow, tiger, whatever.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Ahh, he did the same thing with me about my concept of music being the only divine art.

I know to many great musicians who disagree with such a foolish premise. Music is math, with a little imagination thrown in, mixed with extensive experience, and a dash of inspiration, sometimes this inspiration can be MONEY, there is nothing DIVINE about it, stop being so mystical over an Art form, no different from Art, Literature, Sculpting, Photography, or any other Art form.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Prove to me that this has happened because of the Hindu religion; so far you've stated a corelation (that frankly sounds exaggerated and therefore unconvincing, because the Indian population would suffer drastically if 10 million girls were killed) that is just as stupid as the stance that Doom caused the Columbine shootings.

All my studies of it have shown, and Scripture backs this up, by the way, that Hindu religions require COMPLETE nonviolence to ANY living creature: man, woman, child, insect, spider, cow, tiger, whatever.

Believe me I don't just make this stuff up, Ultra sound is a huge striving business in India, determining the sex of the fetus, if female it is usually aborted by the parents. My figures ARE accurate, 10 million girls in the last 20 years, and yes, 80% of the population in India are Hindu. A simple google search will confirm my figures, and yes religion is the killer!!!
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Believe me I don't just make this stuff up, Ultra sound is a huge striving business in India, determining the sex of the fetus, if female it is usually aborted by the parents. My figures ARE accurate, 10 million girls in the last 20 years, and yes, 80% of the population in India are Hindu. A simple google search will confirm my figures, and yes religion is the killer!!!

Why Google? The internet is littered with junk. Show me a book.

So you're talking about abortion. Then I'll say nothing, as this thread is not about that.

If Indians are still unaware of the fact that ALL vertebrate embryos are female, then why don't you go down there and teach them that?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I know to many great musicians who disagree with such a foolish premise. Music is math, with a little imagination thrown in, mixed with extensive experience, and a dash of inspiration, sometimes this inspiration can be MONEY, there is nothing DIVINE about it, stop being so mystical over an Art form, no different from Art, Literature, Sculpting, Photography, or any other Art form.

Why? Why should you care whether or not someone is spiritual about art? From my experience, it doesn't affect the end result in any way.

EDIT: And did you read my post where I requested that you direct me to your music? I would like to hear it.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
By the way, I was mistaken about the Hindu intellectual class: a quick look at the Sanskrit glossaries of two of my Bhagavad-Gitas has taught me that it's actually brahmana.
 

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Why Google? The internet is littered with junk. Show me a book.

So you're talking about abortion. Then I'll say nothing, as this thread is not about that.

If Indians are still unaware of the fact that ALL vertebrate embryos are female, then why don't you go down there and teach them that?

This report from RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE Ontario Consultants On Religious Tolerance: Disclaimer----It is our policy to not criticize any theological belief of any religion, we do however criticize behavior like sexism, racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance. That is we do not criticize beliefs only practices that harm others, the following two examples by Hindus fall into that category.

Infanticide has been widespread in India for centuries, RJ Rommel reported.

In the rigid caste system young girls were murdered as a matter of course. When statistics were collected in the 19th century it was discovered that in some villages, NO baby girls were found at all, in a total of 30 other villages 343 boys and 54 girls were found. In Bombay the number of girls alive in 1834 was 603.

A study of Tamil Nadu by the Community Services Guild Of Mandras, found that female infanticide is rampart in that state, though only among Hindu. Of the 1,250 families covered by the study, 740 had only one girl and 249 agreed directly that they had done away with the unwanted girl child.

According to UNICEF a report from Bombay in 1984 on abortion after prenatal sex determination states that 7,999 out of 8,000 of the aborted fetuses were female. Sex determination has become a lucrative business.

Although this practice is now outlawed in India, very few of the local authorities enforce the law as the tradition is so well established.
 
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