horrors of religion

[linwood]

Marxist communism is completely atheistic and explicitly anti-religious. Stalin was a Marxist - not a socialist. In fact, he wrote Marxism and the National Question, a work that was praised by Lenin.

May I suggest you re-acquaint yourself with the differences between communism and socialism.

May I suggest you deal with my point and not the history of socialism.

 

[linwood]

I wish you would read my posts in context rather than take them out of context. My point was that IF Christians are accused of collective guilt based on the actions of individual Christians, then atheists are collectively guilty based on the actions of individual atheists.

I may have missed it Kathryn if so I apologize but I haven`t seen anyone equate individual Christians to the "horrors of religion".

 

[Kathryn]

Linwood, your "point" was based on erroneous information - that's why I refuted it.

You said that Stalin's dogma was based on socialist principles and that assertion is what your "point" hinged on. I pointed out that Stalin was not a socialist, he was a Marxist communist - and there's a HUGE difference which completely negates your "point."

 

[Sunstone]

I wish you would read my posts in context rather than take them out of context.

So far as I can see, I have.

My point was that IF Christians are accused of collective guilt based on the actions of individual Christians, then atheists are collectively guilty based on the actions of individual atheists.

You've changed your point. That's something I believe I've noticed you do now and then -- not just in this thread but in others. If you want to argue now that you point is "IF Christians are accused of collective guilt based on the actions of individual Christians, then atheists are collectively guilty based on the actions of individual atheists", that's fine -- just don't pretend that's always been your point. It certainly wasn't your point when you said:

I am absolutely sure that I want to go on record saying that atheist regimes are directly responsible for the deaths of more people IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY ALONE than all deaths perpetrated by the Crusades, the Inquisition, and witch trials combined.

Stalin and his minions did their deeds in the name of an atheist state devoid of religion.

As for your original point, it is certainly true that some Christians have found their religion a source of encouragement to rape, murder, torture and otherwise transgress against others. In contrast, it is not at all clear that some atheists have found in the notion there is no god a source of encouragement to rape, murder, torture and otherwise transgress against others. The mere fact Rush Limbaugh and half the pastors in Texas believe atheism is on a par with religion as a source of encouragement to crimes against humanity is not sufficient evidence that such is the case.

 

[linwood]

Linwood, your "point" was based on erroneous information - that's why I refuted it.

Whether or not I got the properties of Stalins "kind" of socialist communism correct has no bearing on my point.

My point is that Stalins "Kind" of socialism/communism was a religion in itself.

You said that Stalin's dogma was based on socialist principles and that assertion is what your "point" hinged on. I pointed out that Stalin was not a socialist, he was a Marxist communist - and there's a HUGE difference which completely negates your "point."

You would have to recognize my point before you can refute it.

I`ll wait until you do.

Or you could simply go on building straw men.
Suits me fine too.

 

[Kathryn]

Good Lord, Linwood, what we're talking about here is the assertion that religion can be a poison - that's what the OP is about. The title of the OP is "The horrors of religion" or didn't you notice that?

My point is that any belief system can be twisted by individuals and used to abuse others.

Here's some ideas for future threads:

The Horrors of Atheism
The Horrors of Pantheism
The Horrors of Agnosticism
The Horrors of Mimes
The Horrors of Clowns

Then we could give individual examples of lunatics who also happened to be members of one of the above groups.

But...that would be stupid, wouldn't it?

My point, Linwood, is that the OP itself is an example of flawed reasoning.

 

[Storm]

You've changed your point. That's something I believe I've noticed you do now and then -- not just in this thread but in others. If you want to argue now that you point is "IF Christians are accused of collective guilt based on the actions of individual Christians, then atheists are collectively guilty based on the actions of individual atheists", that's fine -- just don't pretend that's always been your point.

In all fairness, that's the point I thought she was making, which she confirmed when I asked to make sure. It was satire, basically.

 

[Kathryn]

Although an extreme case this certainly points to the danger that Being A Clown plays when a belief is taken to the extreme. John Wayne Gacy was a member of the Democratic Party, a business man and a political activist. He was a precinct captain and at one point met with First Lady Rosalynn Carter. He even had received special clearance by the US Secret Service. As a political activist and community organizer for the Democratic Party, he also hosted numerous local events and neighborhood parties, and dressed as Pogo the Clown for the entertainment of neighborhood children.

He also killed 33 boys and young men.

If this is not an example of how Being a Clown can be a poison, please tell me why.

 

[richardlowellt]

Man's fallen nature poisons everything.

Great, man's fallen nature because of??? The Adam and Eve thing? You have the mindset that we are all miserable sinners? We are born sick and commanded to be well? That kind of fallen thing? We are lost sheep, children of the flock, needing our big invisible daddy in the sky? Is this what you talking about?

 

[Sunstone]

In all fairness, that's the point I thought she was making, which she confirmed when I asked to make sure. It was satire, basically.

IF that's the case, then I stand corrected.

 

[Storm]

IF that's the case, then I stand corrected.

She also hilariously made the same point with clowns.

 

[linwood]

Good Lord, Linwood, what we're talking about here is the assertion that religion can be a poison - that's what the OP is about. The title of the OP is "The horrors of religion" or didn't you notice that?

Yes and I have rebutted your point that Stalins despotism was based upon some sort of "atheist philosophy".

It seems I`ve done so successfully as you`ve yet to provide evidence to the contrary.

My point is that any belief system can be twisted by individuals and used to abuse others.

Agreed but my point is that Stalins belief system while it included atheism wasn`t based upon it.
I don`t see how a system of belief could be based upon it.

That`s why I`d like to see these threads started somewhere.

The Horrors of Atheism
The Horrors of Pantheism
The Horrors of Agnosticism
The Horrors of Mimes
The Horrors of Clowns

I don`t think it can be done considering there really is no belief system associated with the above positions.

 

[Sunstone]

She also hilariously made the same point with clowns.

If that's the point she was making all along, did you notice she and I were arguing a similar point?

 

[Storm]

Did you notice she and I were arguing a similar point?

I did, which is why I stepped in.

 

[linwood]

If this is not an example of how Being a Clown can be a poison, please tell me why.

Because being a clown entails no dogmatic belief system that sometimes leads to poisonous situations.

Gacy didn`t kill because the clown bible told him to.

There is no clown bible.

 

[richardlowellt]

alright richard enough is enough. Every single institution that man has ever created since the beginning of recorded history has had its share of adherents abuse it towards clearly terrible/evil consequences and its fair share of idiots do something completely stupid in the name of that institution.

And before we start here let me make it clear that i am speaking about the three major religions of the world.

The institution of family allowed for the creation of "vendetta." therefore family is evil.

Only those families that allowed for the vendetta





the institution of capitalism allowed for the creation of predatory credit practices, therefore capitalism is evil.

Yes i would agree with that.


Government allowed for genocides of numerous sorts to occur, therefore government is evil.

Most certainly.




Science prompted genocide through social darwinism and eugenics practices, therefore science is evil.

No, enough good has come out of science to counter any evils it may have done, religion on the other hand has done nothing to advance the species.



The larger the institution the more likely it is that some person of questionable character is going to try and use that institution towards harmful and/or extremely selfish ends. Religion, government, family, money, etc all have been responsible for atrocities of countless number; singling one out over the others is a fallacy unless you can clearly show how religion differs from the others and how that difference specifically leads to greater harm done.

The difference is, only good is suppose to come from religion, there is no wiggle room here, only good is expected. A caring loving god that looks down and protects his creations, there is no room for evil here.

In the absence of religion almost all the great works of art from dark ages through the renaissance would not have existed.

Silly statement, people will create regardless of religion. Being a creative person i know i can create beauty without a god belief and many of the creative people i know can do the same. They simply would have been inspired in other ways.



The church patronized a large majority of the artists, sculptors, architects, and thinkers of the time.


Many of the composers and artist worked for the church, how successful do you think any of them would have been if they where know non-believers. You know----don't bite the hand that feeds you!!!



Care to take a stab at answering the question?

Mtf

i hope your not one of these people that when it comes to the creative arts, thinks that divine inspiration is solely responsible for great works of art and music. Nothing can be furter from the truth.

 

[richardlowellt]

And it would have been the same way whether or not religion is involved.

People who are born without the capacity for rational thinking will have a much more difficult time thinking rationally, and our society seems to frown on any sort of difficulty.

Oh, I disagree, without this mans extreme religious belief he would have taken his daughter to the doctors.

How do you know this man was born without the capacity for rational thought? Rational thought evaporates when religion comes to town. How many intelligent people have you known who believe in the most irrational of things because of their religious beliefs?

 

[richardlowellt]

Atheism has been an enabler of horrible things as well - in fact, more people were killed in the name of atheism in the 20th century alone than were killed in the name of Christianity during the Inquisition, witch trials, and Crusades combined.

Your logic and argument falls flat here, you are trying to compare a belief in a God being with people who have absolutely no belief. Religion and religious people have the expectation of doing only good because of their beliefs. One would hope that a non-religious person will do good things, certainly, but there is no divine expectation as there is with the religious.

 

[richardlowellt]

Atheism promotes the abolition of absolute values, a closed mind, it encourages the seizure of personal freedoms, promotes genocide, brainwashes the youth, has repeatedly gone to war with those who believe differently,


now all you need to do is provide us with documentation, and or examples of these.





has committed unspeakable horrors of torture in the name of (fill in the blank - Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, Mao, Castro, Hoxha, Ceausescu, etc)...well, there's a partial list.

BTW---Stalin use the peoples belief in God to promote himself, telling them that he alone, could affect the harvest of food by making the crops twice there size, so he used God for his own good, no different that any good televangelists. Mao, was considered by many of his followers to be a God, much the same as the Japanese and their godlike treatment of Hiro Hito.

 

[richardlowellt]

So what you want someone to name a religion in which this isn't shown.....??
Let's try Neo-Paganism. Most I know(including myself) are quite open and friendly. Don't hate people just because there different, and just love helping other... does that count. Or are you just going to point out some hateful thing to try and make your point?

No, not what I asked, I didn't ask for a RELIGION, I asked for examples of what was discussed in the post!!!