How an Omnipotent and All Loving God cannot exist.

[Student of God]

Evil is from man and greed. It is to be a lesson. What sort of sick, twisted reality would it be if we sinned anyway we wanted with no repocutions or lessons for us to learn better?

That is the problem with all whiny privileged types.

Say your a drunk whom has been put in jail numerous times for being a drunk. Say your mother has the resources to get you released. If she lets you set in hopes that you may learn from your mistakes does it mean that she doesn't love you, or that she couldn't get you out?

Or does it mean that you messed up, and should get your self out and hopefully be better for it?

What about natural disasters then?

 

[JoStories]

Evil is from man and greed. It is to be a lesson. What sort of sick, twisted reality would it be if we sinned anyway we wanted with no repocutions or lessons for us to learn better?

That is the problem with all whiny privileged types.

Say your a drunk whom has been put in jail numerous times for being a drunk. Say your mother has the resources to get you released. If she lets you set in hopes that you may learn from your mistakes does it mean that she doesn't love you, or that she couldn't get you out?

Or does it mean that you messed up, and should get your self out and hopefully be better for it?

While I do not believe in the concept of sin, and I take issue with your remark about privileged people (my father was quite wealthy before he died and left us comfortable), I think there is something to be said about letting children fall. My father was a great dad but when I screwed up really badly, he let me be homeless for a while to learn my lesson. I pulled myself up by the boot straps and never did that kind of stupidity again. IMO, there is a limit to what a parent should do for their children, particularly as adults.

 

[Etritonakin]

If God is willing to destroy evil but not able to, then he is not all powerful.
If God can destroy evil but chooses not to, then he is responsible for all evil.
If God can destroy evil and chooses to, then evil cannot exist.
If God is not able to and is not willing to destroy evil, then he is not God.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

-Epicurus

God created the beings who choose to do evil -because choice was required due to the desired end result of making gods -so eradication of evil requires that those beings no longer do evil -or that those beings no longer exist.

God is able to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna -but it is his will that we turn from evil instead. God could conceivably destroy evil today -by destroying all who have the ability to choose it.

As he declared the end from the beginning, evil wIll certainly eventually be eradicated -but he bears with it for a time so that we have the time to overcome it.

Is it more loving to destroy us all now -or to see us through this time and make us gods?

Evil is essentially disorder. Good is a perfect system, and evil that which brings it into disorder and imperfection. It takes time for new beings to learn order -learn their place in the order of things -to become ever greater in an orderly fashion -and learn to maintain order in themselves and their environment.

As for God doing evil through natural disasters, etc.......
The tree of life included an ordered and maintained environment -and the creation was given over to disorder when the tree of life was rejected.
God also uses adversity to accomplish his purpose.

God is quoted as saying that he "purpose"s evil -and he does purposefully do things which can be broadly seen to be evil in a sense -but which work good overall -and is not literally evil.
Everything he does will accomplish good -even for those on the receiving end of the more extreme things.
Plagues, curses, storms, animals, insects -directing human armies against other humans -even allowing demons to enact their will -all have been employed by God -yet he remains blameless.
How? God is the one who can raise every last one of the dead, and repair any thing which has been destroyed. That which he does and allows is always necessary for our eventual good.
That cannot be said of others.

All who have been on the receiving end of the evil God has "purposed" will reap the benefits of the overall results.
Many lost their lives by the death penalty under the Old Testament judgments -but that prepared the way for the new covenant -which will result in men being made immortal and ruling Earth under Christ. The earth will become a paradise. After a thousand years, all who have ever lived will be resurrected to that situation and judged according to their works.
They will then be taught to do well in that environment and also have the opportunity to live forever and create throughout the universe.

Yes -God killed them -but did so to make the future possible. Then he un-kills them -wipes away every tear -and the former things will not be brought into remembrance.

Our environment is that by which our minds are manufactured.
The adversity we live through has a psychological effect -and more positively so if we choose to overcome that adversity.
God said he would try us and refine us as gold and silver.

Then... When our minds have been perfected, we can be given a perfect body, and the environment can be repaired. In fact, the bible specifies that the bodies we may be given will have power similar to that which allows God and Christ to subdue all things unto themselves.

 

[Shad]

I agree but then I don't believe any of those religions or views of God have the straight of it. IMO, they are attributing human attributes onto something they cannot understand. This is not to say that my view is in any way more correct than theirs. It merely means that I cannot conceive of God committing genocide as depicted in the OT, or any of the other stories that paint God in such a capricious manner. It seems a lot of faiths have the idea that they are the only chosen of God, which is hubris, at the least.

I agree. I have no contention with anything you have said in the above. I see such views as justification for horrible acts, motivation for these acts and control of the masses. While religion do provide positives the negative should not be ignored or excused.

 

[Alitheia Aylso]

Evil is from man and greed. It is to be a lesson. What sort of sick, twisted reality would it be if we sinned anyway we wanted with no repocutions or lessons for us to learn better?

That is the problem with all whiny privileged types.

Say your a drunk whom has been put in jail numerous times for being a drunk. Say your mother has the resources to get you released. If she lets you set in hopes that you may learn from your mistakes does it mean that she doesn't love you, or that she couldn't get you out?

Or does it mean that you messed up, and should get your self out and hopefully be better for it?

There is a difference between being jailed for doing something wrong and being tortured for all of eternity for not worshiping you.

 

[Alitheia Aylso]

God created the beings who choose to do evil -because choice was required due to the desired end result of making gods -so eradication of evil requires that those beings no longer do evil -or that those beings no longer exist.

God is able to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna -but it is his will that we turn from evil instead. God could conceivably destroy evil today -by destroying all who have the ability to choose it.

As he declared the end from the beginning, evil wIll certainly eventually be eradicated -but he bears with it for a time so that we have the time to overcome it.

Is it more loving to destroy us all now -or to see us through this time and make us gods?

Evil is essentially disorder. Good is a perfect system, and evil that which brings it into disorder and imperfection. It takes time for new beings to learn order -learn their place in the order of things -to become ever greater in an orderly fashion -and learn to maintain order in themselves and their environment.

As for God doing evil through natural disasters, etc.......
The tree of life included an ordered and maintained environment -and the creation was given over to disorder when the tree of life was rejected.
God also uses adversity to accomplish his purpose.

God is quoted as saying that he "purpose"s evil -and he does purposefully do things which can be broadly seen to be evil in a sense -but which work good overall -and is not literally evil.
Everything he does will accomplish good -even for those on the receiving end of the more extreme things.
Plagues, curses, storms, animals, insects -directing human armies against other humans -even allowing demons to enact their will -all have been employed by God -yet he remains blameless.
How? God is the one who can raise every last one of the dead, and repair any thing which has been destroyed. That which he does and allows is always necessary for our eventual good.
That cannot be said of others.

All who have been on the receiving end of the evil God has "purposed" will reap the benefits of the overall results.
Many lost their lives by the death penalty under the Old Testament judgments -but that prepared the way for the new covenant -which will result in men being made immortal and ruling Earth under Christ. The earth will become a paradise. After a thousand years, all who have ever lived will be resurrected to that situation and judged according to their works.
They will then be taught to do well in that environment and also have the opportunity to live forever and create throughout the universe.

Yes -God killed them -but did so to make the future possible. Then he un-kills them -wipes away every tear -and the former things will not be brought into remembrance.

Our environment is that by which our minds are manufactured.
The adversity we live through has a psychological effect -and more positively so if we choose to overcome that adversity.
God said he would try us and refine us as gold and silver.

Then... When our minds have been perfected, we can be given a perfect body, and the environment can be repaired. In fact, the bible specifies that the bodies we may be given will have power similar to that which allows God and Christ to subdue all things unto themselves.

A perfect mind would only rely on facts, therefore if we use only facts then we would not have any reason to believe in a deity.

 

[Alitheia Aylso]

You asked about the monotheistic faiths. I made the comment that Christianity could be as non-monotheistic because of the trinity. And what makes you think that polytheistic deities cannot have those qualities as well? That said, carry on. I will vacate your thread.

Still, I am specifically trying to disprove that their is an Omnipotent and All Loving God.
I would rather not go on tangents, if you wish to create such a thread I gladly take part in such a discussion

 

[Nakosis]

All all powerful God could make you cease to exist. Bring you back, erase your memory of anything bad that happen. Start over and give you a completely different life.

So say God creates the universe and lets it run amok for whatever reason. People suffer.
Then erases that, brings everyone back, gives everyone a wonderful life and basically the suffering never happened.

Maybe folks got bored of heaven were everything is perfect. So god allowed chaos, evil and suffering because that's what we wanted. There is no real chaos, evil or suffering. We wanted to know what existence was like in the absence of perfection/God. So God provided the experience knowing no one really gets harmed, no one really suffers.

 

[Etritonakin]

A perfect mind would only rely on facts, therefore if we use only facts then we would not have any reason to believe in a deity.

You might see no reason to believe in a deity given the facts you personally have thus far -and that is understandable.

It is not correct to say that WE would not have any reason to believe in a deity.
I do believe in a deity -based on facts.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

If God is willing to destroy evil but not able to, then he is not all powerful.
If God can destroy evil but chooses not to, then he is responsible for all evil.
If God can destroy evil and chooses to, then evil cannot exist.
If God is not able to and is not willing to destroy evil, then he is not God.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

-Epicurus

By that rationale, any parent who does not grant their child every wish they are able to, is malevolent.

The reason a good parent does not do this applies to God. good, love can only exist where they are freely chosen over evil, hate. We must know both for there to be a choice.

 

[Etritonakin]

There is a difference between being jailed for doing something wrong and being tortured for all of eternity for not worshiping you.

That's not actually what it says or means -though it can seem to without an in-depth study......

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


Consider this....
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What is contained in the bible is not easily understood without an in-depth study -and is even described as a mystery which would be more understood as time went by.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(emphasis mine)

The plan of God will not be finished then -but the mystery -which means it will then be understood.

 

[Alitheia Aylso]

You might see no reason to believe in a deity given the facts you personally have thus far -and that is understandable.

It is not correct to say that WE would not have any reason to believe in a deity.
I do believe in a deity -based on facts.

Then by all means share them.

 

[Etritonakin]

Then by all means share them.

Not to be rude, but I am quite weary of doing the work of others for them -especially if it is to no effect.
If you are not of a mindset to consider it possible or seek it for yourself, it would also likely be a waste of time.

If you are interested in proof.... prophecy -the history of man written beforehand -is a good place to start, but many would already, at this point, have preconceptions popping into their minds which would prevent an open-minded and thorough study.

 

[Alitheia Aylso]

Not to be rude, but I am quite weary of doing the work of others for them -especially if it is to no effect.
If you are not of a mindset to consider it possible or seek it for yourself, it would also likely be a waste of time.

If you are interested in proof.... prophecy -the history of man written beforehand -is a good place to start, but many would already, at this point, have preconceptions popping into their minds which would prevent an open-minded and thorough study.

If you do not wish to provide me evidence as to why Christianity true than can I provide evidence to debunk Christianity?

 

[Etritonakin]

If you do not wish to provide me evidence as to why Christianity true than can I provide evidence to debunk Christianity?

Sure -but what do you mean by "Christianity"? Even Christ said there would be false Christianity.


I would also definitely be interested in how you would have done things differently (referring to the barking up the wrong tree post)......

"Would you like to here what I would have done if I where the sole omnipotent being?"

 

[TheSounding]

If God is willing to destroy evil but not able to, then he is not all powerful.
If God can destroy evil but chooses not to, then he is responsible for all evil.
If God can destroy evil and chooses to, then evil cannot exist.
If God is not able to and is not willing to destroy evil, then he is not God.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

-Epicurus

God is the root of all evil.
He nurtures and protects it.
He is the patron of evil.
He is the one presiding.

God is the root of all virtue.
He nurtures and protects it.
He is the patron of virtue.
He is the one presiding.

Consider the following:

"Sun and moon move in measured order;
Shrubs and trees bow down;
The sky He raised, and established the balance,
So that you do not infringe the balance,
But measure in fairness, and not shortchange the balance."

It's all about perspective. God is not real unless you make him real. Ancient peoples looked at what was around them and they believed in one driving force, of the wind, the flow of water, the motion of stars, and life. Some people may look at what is around and believe something else. And in the end, who can say the truth of it?

Take into consideration everything that has happened in the world. There are atrocities committed by evil men, but there is also the opposite of that. Consider Jesus of Galilee and judge his message by its merit without dogma or theology, then consider that one driving force and its relation to evil. What do you decide to make of it?

 

[anonymous9887]

I believe that if you are trying to disprove the bible or a god you should use the source to disprove this, because the bible gives us answers to those statements you are making.

 

[TheSounding]

I believe that if you are trying to disprove the bible or a god you should use the source to disprove this, because the bible gives us answers to those statements you are making.

I don't know who you were talking to, but here's my thought on that.

If God can only be known by what is around us, by what our senses can discern, then everything around us is caused by God. I think all monotheists would agree with me. Everything would include every book, so which book is truer? And what universally accepted method is there to decide this?

What I'm saying is that it seems silly to me for anyone to advocate for any book on the basis that it alone is the truth.

 

[anonymous9887]

I don't know who you were talking to, but here's my thought on that.

If God can only be known by what is around us, by what our senses can discern, then everything around us is caused by God. I think all monotheists would agree with me. Everything would include every book, so which book is truer? And what universally accepted method is there to decide this?

What I'm saying is that it seems silly to me for anyone to advocate for any book on the basis that it alone is the truth.

yes what we see can be a reflection on our creator, but he has given us an explanation to why these things are happening. The bible teaches that god is good and created everything good but also gave us free will, and satan the devil decided to challenge gods sovereignty.I agree that nothing can happens outside of his will he is not the cause of wickedness, but allows it and explains himself to us in his word the bible. There is a fascinating reason why he allows such things to happen, its a little long to explain but it fills in the gaps on why life is the way it is.

 

[TheSounding]

yes what we see can be a reflection on our creator, but he has given us an explanation to why these things are happening. The bible teaches that god is good and created everything good but also gave us free will, and satan the devil decided to challenge gods sovereignty.I agree that nothing can happens outside of his will he is not the cause of wickedness, but allows it and explains himself to us in his word the bible. There is a fascinating reason why he allows such things to happen, its a little long to explain but it fills in the gaps on why life is the way it is.

If everything around us is a reflection of our God, then so too is the inspiration of every man. It is commonly said, the Bible is an inspired work. It is because of exactly this. Those men were inspired by the world around them to write down their thoughts. And other men saw the merit in their words and followed what they said.

Are you saying that ONLY the inspiration of those men who wrote the Bible has merit?

I don't mean to be overly engaging BTW, or rude. Please forgive me if that is the case.