How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

[JerryMyers]

Jerry,
I am not a Trinitarian.

You are not !?? Oh my TrueBeliever37 and my God!!

Don’t get too excited, I am not claiming you are God, I am just shocked as I could swear by your comments you are a Trinitarian and then only to be told that you are NOT ??? That’s shocking !!

Thomas had realized that the Messiah was God. That was why he said My Lord and my God. No matter how much anyone denies it, it is there.

No, he DID NOT – you are not going to find a single verse in the whole Bible where God Almighty said or even implied His prophet, Jesus, whom He sent was actually Himself!! Likewise, you are not going to find a single verse in the whole Bible where Jesus said or even implied he’s actually God. When you cannot support your claims with the words of God Almighty and/or with words of His prophets whom he sent throughout the ages, then, what you have are just assumptions, irrespective of whether they are assumptions of other people you embraced as the truth, they are still assumptions if what they said or preached did not echo what God or His prophets said or did not say.

In John 20:28, Thomas was shocked, and his natural reaction was to exclaim “My Lord and my God!”. Likewise, I was shocked and exclaimed “Oh my TrueBeliever37 and my God!!” because I could not believe you are not a Trinitarian. Thomas, on the other hand, was shocked because he could not believe Jesus was alive and not only that, Jesus was NOT showing any sign of a crucified man – no matter how much you want to deny this, that’s what John 20:26-28 logically and rationally is saying.

As far as logos - that refers to the plan or idea or concept. It was the plan of God that was with God, and was God, and involved God,

In other words, the Word of God/Logos in John 1 is NOT Jesus as you earlier perceived, but it’s a reference to God's Plan and Jesus was part of the plan. Would that be correct ??

and when the time was right God took on flesh and that part of the plan was fulfilled.

‘God took on flesh’ would be a conjecture because that idea of God transforming Himself into a man never came from God or any of His prophets, including Jesus. So, where did you get that from ??

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You are not !?? Oh my TrueBeliever37 and my God!!

Don’t get too excited, I am not claiming you are God, I am just shocked as I could swear by your comments you are a Trinitarian and then only to be told that you are NOT ??? That’s shocking !!


No, he DID NOT – you are not going to find a single verse in the whole Bible where God Almighty said or even implied His prophet, Jesus, whom He sent was actually Himself!! Likewise, you are not going to find a single verse in the whole Bible where Jesus said or even implied he’s actually God. When you cannot support your claims with the words of God Almighty and/or with words of His prophets whom he sent throughout the ages, then, what you have are just assumptions, irrespective of whether they are assumptions of other people you embraced as the truth, they are still assumptions if what they said or preached did not echo what God or His prophets said or did not say.

In John 20:28, Thomas was shocked, and his natural reaction was to exclaim “My Lord and my God!”. Likewise, I was shocked and exclaimed “Oh my TrueBeliever37 and my God!!” because I could not believe you are not a Trinitarian. Thomas, on the other hand, was shocked because he could not believe Jesus was alive and not only that, Jesus was NOT showing any sign of a crucified man – no matter how much you want to deny this, that’s what John 20:26-28 logically and rationally is saying.


In other words, the Word of God/Logos in John 1 is NOT Jesus as you earlier perceived, but it’s a reference to God's Plan and Jesus was part of the plan. Would that be correct ??


‘God took on flesh’ would be a conjecture because that idea of God transforming Himself into a man never came from God or any of His prophets, including Jesus. So, where did you get that from ??

I'll be honest, I don't know how I can even reason with you. You argue against some of the most clear statements in the scriptures. For instance when Peter taught to repent and be baptized in the name for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38 And then where Paul was told to arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16 Yet you still will argue against baptism in the name being for the forgiveness of sins.

And it seems you are unable to even understand what I have been saying if you think I believe in the Trinity. And that is ridiculous to think it was just an expression of shock when Thomas called him his God. The Greek would have been translated "God of me" and then the wording rearranged somewhat for an English sentence. Show me some proof that the expression Lord of me, and God of me is a Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) idiom expressing shock.

And you even argue about the Messiah's blood being shed for our sins. If you are unable to see even basic things in the scriptures that are so clear, what need is there to discuss other things?

What about the things the Messiah said, such as Before Abraham was I am. John 8:56-59 How could that be unless he was God because that body wasn't even born yet during Abraham's time?

The Messiah said - Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 How could that be unless he was God? Because we know from other scriptures that the Spirit of God raised up that body.

The Messiah said - You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world, I am not of this world... for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins. How could that be if he is not God?

 

[moorea944]

Wrong - because he said before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10 So it wasn't just at that time, he is the only God that will ever exist.

Yes... that's exactly what I was saying....
There is only one GOD, Yahweh.

But I"m not sure that your understanding what God or GOD means...... your looking at it different from the real meaning.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yes... that's exactly what I was saying....
There is only one GOD, Yahweh.

But I"m not sure that your understanding what God or GOD means...... your looking at it different from the real meaning.

I just understand that YHWH took on a fleshly body to sacrifice for our sins. The Messiah was the image (the body) YHWH the invisible God took on.

Trinitarians think the Messiah was the 2nd person in the Godhead. And some like you don't think the Messiah was deity at all. While I believe YHWH (the only God) overshadowed the virgin Mary and made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for sins. So the Messiah was actually YHWH here on earth dwelling in a physical body that could shed blood and die.

 

[JerryMyers]

I'll be honest, I don't know how I can even reason with you. You argue against some of the most clear statements in the scriptures. For instance when Peter taught to repent and be baptized in the name for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38 And then where Paul was told to arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16 Yet you still will argue against baptism in the name being for the forgiveness of sins.

For someone who opened up his argument with “I’ll be honest”, you are NOT really being honest, are you?? Christians believe Jesus died for their sin and baptism today means you accept and believe Jesus died for your sin – that’s NOT the baptism preached by Jesus and John the Baptist. Jesus and John preach baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins – can you tell the difference ?? One is baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin and the other, is baptism of a belief in Jesus’ blood/death for the forgiveness of sin. One preached by Jesus and the other preached by who I termed as ‘other people’. So, be honest – is your faith based on the preaching of Jesus or is your faith based on the preaching of ‘other people’ ??

And it seems you are unable to even understand what I have been saying if you think I believe in the Trinity.

All your earlier comments prior to your own admission that you are not a Trinitarian, points to a Trinitarian’s view. Your writings or comments are reflections of who you are, so, when someone thinks you are a Trinitarian, it’s not he/she was not able to understand what you have been saying, it’s your writings that are giving that understanding.

So, what are you exactly – a cross between a Trinitarian and a Unitarian???

Your belief that God and Jesus are one and the same being is even more ridiculous than the Trinitarian’s!! Let me ask you – if God and Jesus are one and the same being and you believe Jesus, who is also God the Father, died, then, who’s in charge during the period when Jesus/God the Father died? In other words, during that period, it’s open season for sinners since God had died !! What nonsense is that ???

And that is ridiculous to think it was just an expression of shock when Thomas called him his God

First of all, Thomas NEVER called Jesus his God. In fact, NONE of the disciples believed Jesus was God or called Jesus their God. When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and Mary realized the man standing in front of her was Jesus, what did Mary cry out ? She cried out “Rabboni!” meaning ‘Teacher’ NOT God (John 20:16). When Jesus appeared to his other disciples (John 20:19-23), did any of the disciple act or say anything that could have implied they believed Jesus was their God?? None, zilch, nada, keiner. Common sense will tell you if none of the disciples took Jesus as their God, then Thomas too could not be taking Jesus as his God which means Thomas’ “My Lord and my God!” was Thomas reacting in shock and disbelief to see Jesus alive and unharmed.

The exclamation mark(!) tells us it’s a reaction of shock and disbelief. In writings, you don’t address or acknowledge God with an exclamation mark!! You are not going to find the phrase ‘my God!’ (with an exclamation mark) anywhere in the whole Bible EXCEPT in John 20:28. Why? Because John 20:28 is a reaction of shock and disbelief, it’s NOT an acknowledgment of Jesus as God.

The Greek would have been translated "God of me" and then the wording rearranged somewhat for an English sentence. Show me some proof that the expression Lord of me, and God of me is a Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) idiom expressing shock.

What’s the difference between ‘God of me!’ and ‘My God!’ ?? In the context of John 20:28, both are expressions of shock and disbelief. So, even if you replaced “My Lord and my God!” with “Lord of me and God of me!”. It’s still an expression of shock and disbelief because of the exclamation mark!

And you even argue about the Messiah's blood being shed for our sins. If you are unable to see even basic things in the scriptures that are so clear, what need is there to discuss other things?

Are you responding to my earlier comment ‘Thomas, on the other hand, was shocked because he could not believe Jesus was alive and NOT showing any sign of a man who was crucified – no matter how much you want to deny this, that’s what John 20:26-28 logically is saying’??

OK, let’s see whether it’s me or you ‘who is unable to see even basic things in the scriptures that are so clear’.

Where, in the whole Gospel of John, does it say Jesus was showing the wound marks of his crucifixion to his disciples ??? Christians assume, as always, Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks to prove he was crucified, died, and resurrected when, in reality, the Bible NEVER said so. What the Bible did say was Jesus showed his hands, feet, and side to his disciples.

Imagine your friends came to you and insisted that they saw you being mugged and both your arms were slashed repeatedly with a machete 3 days ago. To prove to them that the man they saw was not you, what would you do? Obviously and logically, you show them your unharmed arms and that’s exactly what Jesus was doing when he showed his hands, feet, and side to his disciples - ‘They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet’ – Luke 24:37-40.

So, according to your own Bible, why did Jesus show his hands, feet, and side to his disciples? Answer - he showed them to prove to his disciples he is not a ghost. By saying he’s not a ghost to his disciples, Jesus is saying he did not die as to be a ghost, you need to die first. If Jesus is saying/implying he did not die, it means he was not crucified, and if he was not crucified and died, how can he be resurrected from the dead ??

What about the things the Messiah said, such as Before Abraham was I am. John 8:56-59 How could that be unless he was God because that body wasn't even born yet during Abraham's time?

The only reason Christians quoted John 8:58 as ‘proof’ that Jesus is God is because they believe God, in Exodus 3:14, said “I Am What I Am”, therefore, Jesus must be God because he too said “I am” as in John 8:58. However, “I Am What I Am” in Exodus 3:14 is a mistranslation of the Hebrew text and the correct translation is “I will be what I will be” and thus, Jesus saying “I am” as in “Before Abraham was, I am” has nothing to do with him being divine as it’s has nothing to do with God saying “I Am what I Am/I will Be what I will Be” in Exodus 3:14.

Furthermore, God’s name is NOT “I Am What I Am”. In context, Moses was asking God what name should he tell his people if they ask him about God and God told him to just say He will be what He will be/I Am what I Am. In other words, God told Moses to tell his people that He will be what He will be, that is, He’s beyond the human’s mental capacity to understand who He is, but they should just know Him as “the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” – (Exodus 3:15).

Also, in Exodus 34:14, we are told God’s name is Jealous. Does that mean anyone who say “I am jealous” is God too ? Gimme a break !

The Messiah said - Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 How could that be unless he was God? Because we know from other scriptures that the Spirit of God raised up that body.

“…Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” is a hyperbole statement, meaning it’s an exaggerated statement to stress a point, like someone saying “I am so hungry I can eat a horse” which does not mean he can and want to eat the whole horse, but it’s an exaggeration to stress the point that he’s very, very hungry.

In John 2:19, in context, Jesus was clearing the Jews out of the temple because they are misusing the temple courtyard and this upset the Jews who asked Jesus, under whose authority was he doing this and Jesus responded with a hyperbole statement, that is, an exaggerated response to stress the point that his authority came from God as only with God’s authority, can he raise a destroyed temple in three days.

.....AND Jesus was NOT referring to his body either. In context, John 2:21-22 are so out of place, that one can only conclude that those views are the author’s own personal understanding. Clearly, Mark, Matthew and Luke do not share that same understanding.

The Messiah said - You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world, I am not of this world...

Firstly, you need to remove your pre-conceived mindset that Jesus and God are one and the same person – they are not as Jesus had repeated said he was sent by God, which common sense should tell you God and Jesus are 2 separate beings – one a Supreme Being while the other, a human being/son of man.

Secondly, you need to stop taking Jesus’ words literally as you should know better that Jesus spoke figuratively and in parables most of the time.

In saying “You are from beneath; I am from above: you are from this world, I am not of this world”, Jesus was saying the Jews’ consciousness are focused only for the desires of the physical world (that is, for personal power and authority, wealth, and other trappings of this world) while Jesus’ consciousness is focused to the desires from above, that is, as of what God, who is in heaven above, desired of him.

for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins. How could that be if he is not God?

When God said “I am He”, He’s saying He IS THE ONE and ONLY God – “See now that I, I am HE, And there is no god with me…..” – Deuteronomy 32:39

When Jesus said “I am he”, he’s acknowledging that he’s the prophet/Messiah promised to come – “The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” – John 4:25-26

As I said you need to remove your preconceived mindset to see the truth or you shall die in your sins.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

For someone who opened up his argument with “I’ll be honest”, you are NOT really being honest, are you?? Christians believe Jesus died for their sin and baptism today means you accept and believe Jesus died for your sin – that’s NOT the baptism preached by Jesus and John the Baptist. Jesus and John preach baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins – can you tell the difference ?? One is baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin and the other, is baptism of a belief in Jesus’ blood/death for the forgiveness of sin. One preached by Jesus and the other preached by who I termed as ‘other people’. So, be honest – is your faith based on the preaching of Jesus or is your faith based on the preaching of ‘other people’ ??


All your earlier comments prior to your own admission that you are not a Trinitarian, points to a Trinitarian’s view. Your writings or comments are reflections of who you are, so, when someone thinks you are a Trinitarian, it’s not he/she was not able to understand what you have been saying, it’s your writings that are giving that understanding.

So, what are you exactly – a cross between a Trinitarian and a Unitarian???

Your belief that God and Jesus are one and the same being is even more ridiculous than the Trinitarian’s!! Let me ask you – if God and Jesus are one and the same being and you believe Jesus, who is also God the Father, died, then, who’s in charge during the period when Jesus/God the Father died? In other words, during that period, it’s open season for sinners since God had died !! What nonsense is that ???


First of all, Thomas NEVER called Jesus his God. In fact, NONE of the disciples believed Jesus was God or called Jesus their God. When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and Mary realized the man standing in front of her was Jesus, what did Mary cry out ? She cried out “Rabboni!” meaning ‘Teacher’ NOT God (John 20:16). When Jesus appeared to his other disciples (John 20:19-23), did any of the disciple act or say anything that could have implied they believed Jesus was their God?? None, zilch, nada, keiner. Common sense will tell you if none of the disciples took Jesus as their God, then Thomas too could not be taking Jesus as his God which means Thomas’ “My Lord and my God!” was Thomas reacting in shock and disbelief to see Jesus alive and unharmed.

The exclamation mark(!) tells us it’s a reaction of shock and disbelief. In writings, you don’t address or acknowledge God with an exclamation mark!! You are not going to find the phrase ‘my God!’ (with an exclamation mark) anywhere in the whole Bible EXCEPT in John 20:28. Why? Because John 20:28 is a reaction of shock and disbelief, it’s NOT an acknowledgment of Jesus as God.


What’s the difference between ‘God of me!’ and ‘My God!’ ?? In the context of John 20:28, both are expressions of shock and disbelief. So, even if you replaced “My Lord and my God!” with “Lord of me and God of me!”. It’s still an expression of shock and disbelief because of the exclamation mark!


Are you responding to my earlier comment ‘Thomas, on the other hand, was shocked because he could not believe Jesus was alive and NOT showing any sign of a man who was crucified – no matter how much you want to deny this, that’s what John 20:26-28 logically is saying’??

OK, let’s see whether it’s me or you ‘who is unable to see even basic things in the scriptures that are so clear’.

Where, in the whole Gospel of John, does it say Jesus was showing the wound marks of his crucifixion to his disciples ??? Christians assume, as always, Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks to prove he was crucified, died, and resurrected when, in reality, the Bible NEVER said so. What the Bible did say was Jesus showed his hands, feet, and side to his disciples.

Imagine your friends came to you and insisted that they saw you being mugged and both your arms were slashed repeatedly with a machete 3 days ago. To prove to them that the man they saw was not you, what would you do? Obviously and logically, you show them your unharmed arms and that’s exactly what Jesus was doing when he showed his hands, feet, and side to his disciples - ‘They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet’ – Luke 24:37-40.

So, according to your own Bible, why did Jesus show his hands, feet, and side to his disciples? Answer - he showed them to prove to his disciples he is not a ghost. By saying he’s not a ghost to his disciples, Jesus is saying he did not die as to be a ghost, you need to die first. If Jesus is saying/implying he did not die, it means he was not crucified, and if he was not crucified and died, how can he be resurrected from the dead ??


The only reason Christians quoted John 8:58 as ‘proof’ that Jesus is God is because they believe God, in Exodus 3:14, said “I Am What I Am”, therefore, Jesus must be God because he too said “I am” as in John 8:58. However, “I Am What I Am” in Exodus 3:14 is a mistranslation of the Hebrew text and the correct translation is “I will be what I will be” and thus, Jesus saying “I am” as in “Before Abraham was, I am” has nothing to do with him being divine as it’s has nothing to do with God saying “I Am what I Am/I will Be what I will Be” in Exodus 3:14.

Furthermore, God’s name is NOT “I Am What I Am”. In context, Moses was asking God what name should he tell his people if they ask him about God and God told him to just say He will be what He will be/I Am what I Am. In other words, God told Moses to tell his people that He will be what He will be, that is, He’s beyond the human’s mental capacity to understand who He is, but they should just know Him as “the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” – (Exodus 3:15).

Also, in Exodus 34:14, we are told God’s name is Jealous. Does that mean anyone who say “I am jealous” is God too ? Gimme a break !


“…Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” is a hyperbole statement, meaning it’s an exaggerated statement to stress a point, like someone saying “I am so hungry I can eat a horse” which does not mean he can and want to eat the whole horse, but it’s an exaggeration to stress the point that he’s very, very hungry.

In John 2:19, in context, Jesus was clearing the Jews out of the temple because they are misusing the temple courtyard and this upset the Jews who asked Jesus, under whose authority was he doing this and Jesus responded with a hyperbole statement, that is, an exaggerated response to stress the point that his authority came from God as only with God’s authority, can he raise a destroyed temple in three days.

.....AND Jesus was NOT referring to his body either. In context, John 2:21-22 are so out of place, that one can only conclude that those views are the author’s own personal understanding. Clearly, Mark, Matthew and Luke do not share that same understanding.


Firstly, you need to remove your pre-conceived mindset that Jesus and God are one and the same person – they are not as Jesus had repeated said he was sent by God, which common sense should tell you God and Jesus are 2 separate beings – one a Supreme Being while the other, a human being/son of man.

Secondly, you need to stop taking Jesus’ words literally as you should know better that Jesus spoke figuratively and in parables most of the time.

In saying “You are from beneath; I am from above: you are from this world, I am not of this world”, Jesus was saying the Jews’ consciousness are focused only for the desires of the physical world (that is, for personal power and authority, wealth, and other trappings of this world) while Jesus’ consciousness is focused to the desires from above, that is, as of what God, who is in heaven above, desired of him.


When God said “I am He”, He’s saying He IS THE ONE and ONLY God – “See now that I, I am HE, And there is no god with me…..” – Deuteronomy 32:39

When Jesus said “I am he”, he’s acknowledging that he’s the prophet/Messiah promised to come – “The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” – John 4:25-26

As I said you need to remove your preconceived mindset to see the truth or you shall die in your sins.

I am not even going to respond to some of this, because you seem unable to see simple things said in the scriptures. You twist clear cut statements, usually providing no scripture whatsoever to even try to back yourself up. Just giving your opinion, which is worthless without scripture to back it up.

It is hard to understand how a supposed believer truly thinks it is wrong to believe what the Apostles taught. The Messiah you say you listen to, taught the Apostles, and then told them to teach the world whatsoever he had commanded them. Mark 16:15-16 Yet you don't accept what they taught as being worth anything. ARE YOU a BELIEVER or are you just playing games with me?

His hands, and feet, and sides were where the wounds were. What you said above is absolutely ridiculous. The Messiah himself said in Luke 24:46-47 that it is written and thus it behoved him to suffer , and to rise from the dead the third day. So HOW can you deny it and yet claim you believe what he said? (These are his words refuting what you said above about him not dying.) Revelation 1:17-18 also refutes your claim that he didn't die.

You provided absolutely NO PROOF that to say My Lord and My God is an expression of shock in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. Some proof was what I asked you for. If you can provide some kind of proof that it truly is an idiom in their language for shock, then we can discuss it further. Until then it means nothing but something you think.

And you still haven't explained if he wasn't God, how he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58

Sorry but there weren't exclamation marks in the original. As a matter of fact, there isn't an exclamation mark in John 20:28 to begin with.

 

[moorea944]

I just understand that YHWH took on a fleshly body to sacrifice for our sins. The Messiah was the image (the body) YHWH the invisible God took on.

Trinitarians think the Messiah was the 2nd person in the Godhead. And some like you don't think the Messiah was deity at all. While I believe YHWH (the only God) overshadowed the virgin Mary and made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for sins. So the Messiah was actually YHWH here on earth dwelling in a physical body that could shed blood and die.

[I just understand that YHWH took on a fleshly body to sacrifice for our sins.]
Not true. Scripture does say that at all, only you...

But let me try to guess what your saying here...

YHWH left heaven and came down to earth, but on a mortal body, clothed himself with that. Which would make only the angels in heaven. I'm I right?

[The Messiah was the image (the body) YHWH the invisible God took on.]
That.... doesnt even make sense....
Jesus is the image of God, but he's really God becuase God came down and took a body and called himself Jesus.....

[And some like you don't think the Messiah was deity at all. ]
That is correct.

[While I believe YHWH (the only God) overshadowed the virgin Mary]
That is correct.

[and made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for sins. So the Messiah was actually YHWH here on earth dwelling in a physical body that could shed blood and die.]
Ughhhhh......

So God died? Wow.....
Doesnt scripture tell us the God (in heaven) raised up Jesus from the dead? Are you sure you want to believe that God died?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

[I just understand that YHWH took on a fleshly body to sacrifice for our sins.]
Not true. Scripture does say that at all, only you...

But let me try to guess what your saying here...

YHWH left heaven and came down to earth, but on a mortal body, clothed himself with that. Which would make only the angels in heaven. I'm I right?

[The Messiah was the image (the body) YHWH the invisible God took on.]
That.... doesnt even make sense....
Jesus is the image of God, but he's really God becuase God came down and took a body and called himself Jesus.....

[And some like you don't think the Messiah was deity at all. ]
That is correct.

[While I believe YHWH (the only God) overshadowed the virgin Mary]
That is correct.

[and made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for sins. So the Messiah was actually YHWH here on earth dwelling in a physical body that could shed blood and die.]
Ughhhhh......

So God died? Wow.....
Doesnt scripture tell us the God (in heaven) raised up Jesus from the dead? Are you sure you want to believe that God died?

It makes sense, you just refuse to accept it. The scripture says the Messiah was the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1:15

He gave you so many clues, but you refuse to believe him.

I and my Father are one.
If you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.
Before Abraham was, I am.
I am the Alpha and Omega
I am the beginning and the end.
I am the first and the last.
Unless you believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. (speaking of the temple of his body)
The fullness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily. (exactly what I keep telling you - the Messiah was the body)
To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, (once again - the Messiah was the body)
God was manifest in the flesh.
...called Immanuel, which being interpreted is God with us.
... to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
I have all power in heaven and in earth
The voice in the wilderness (John the baptist) crying Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (And we know who John prepared the way for, and who showed up.)
Thomas said my Lord and my God
But now have they both SEEN and hated both me and my Father.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour - who gave himself for us.
He was in the world and the world was made by him, he came unto his own but his own received him not.


The scripture also tells us that the Messiah said he would raise his own body up. He couldn't say that unless he was God. God is an eternal Spirit and can't die. The body God had made for himself (the body called the Messiah) to dwell in and sacrifice for sins died. The Spirit raised the body up from death.

 

[moorea944]

It makes sense, you just refuse to accept it. The scripture says the Messiah was the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1:15

He gave you so many clues, but you refuse to believe him.

I and my Father are one.
If you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father.
Before Abraham was, I am.
I am the Alpha and Omega
I am the beginning and the end.
I am the first and the last.
Unless you believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. (speaking of the temple of his body)
The fullness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily. (exactly what I keep telling you - the Messiah was the body)
To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, (once again - the Messiah was the body)
God was manifest in the flesh.
...called Immanuel, which being interpreted is God with us.
... to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
I have all power in heaven and in earth
The voice in the wilderness (John the baptist) crying Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. (And we know who John prepared the way for, and who showed up.)
Thomas said my Lord and my God
But now have they both SEEN and hated both me and my Father.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour - who gave himself for us.
He was in the world and the world was made by him, he came unto his own but his own received him not.


The scripture also tells us that the Messiah said he would raise his own body up. He couldn't say that unless he was God. God is an eternal Spirit and can't die. The body God had made for himself (the body called the Messiah) to dwell in and sacrifice for sins died. The Spirit raised the body up from death.

Also keep in mind that if God is Jesus and if Jesus is God, we have many things that dont match and make sense.
Remember in Revelation that God "gave" Jesus that Revelation. Jesus never had until his father gave it to him.
Also Jesus told his disciples that only God knows certain things, not even Jesus or the angels knew that.

So you see that trinity or that Jesus is God thing you talk about doesnt even really make sense, does it........

 

[JerryMyers]

I am not even going to respond to some of this, because you seem unable to see simple things said in the scriptures. You twist clear cut statements, usually providing no scripture whatsoever to even try to back yourself up. Just giving your opinion, which is worthless without scripture to back it up.

‘..without scripture to back it up’ ???!! You must be referring to yourself as you can’t even show me where in the whole of John 20 did it say Jesus was showing the wound marks to his disciples to support your claim Jesus was showing the wound marks to his disciples as proof that he was indeed crucified, died and resurrected??

Seems to me you are unable to see simple things said in the scriptures – the scripture said Jesus showed his hands and feet to his disciples, the scripture DID NOT say Jesus showed the wound marks of his crucifixion to his disciples, so, stop putting your own words into what the scripture DID NOT SAY, which I know will be quite difficult for you because you just cannot stop making silly assumptions that CANNOT BE logically supported even by the scripture!

It is hard to understand how a supposed believer truly thinks it is wrong to believe what the Apostles taught. The Messiah you say you listen to, taught the Apostles, and then told them to teach the world whatsoever he had commanded them. Mark 16:15-16 Yet you don't accept what they taught as being worth anything. ARE YOU a BELIEVER or are you just playing games with me?

And in the same passage of Mark 16, Jesus also gave the signs of the believers – “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” – Mark 16:17-18.

So, have you healed sick people by just placing your hands on them?? Have you drunk deadly poison?? ARE YOU a BELIEVER or are you just playing games with me?

It is hard to understand how a supposed believer thinks he’s a true believer when he consistently makes silly assumptions based on what is not in the scripture !!

His hands, and feet, and sides were where the wounds were. What you said above is absolutely ridiculous.

Making illogical and irrational assumptions seems to be your greatest strength. Anyway, his hands, and feet, and sides were where the wounds were IF and ONLY IF Jesus was really crucified and you have yet to show me where in the passage of John 20 did it ever mention wound marks.

Moreover, if Jesus was really showing his wound to Thomas, does it make sense that Jesus would ask Thomas to put his finger into the wound ??! If Jesus was really crucified, does it make sense that Thomas would not have noticed the gaping wound on Jesus’ hands and feet that Jesus have to ask him to put his finger into the wound?? Jesus was supposed to be crucified with nails that are big enough to go through his hands and feet and into the wooden cross – you think Jesus was nailed to the cross with thumbtacks ???! You should first try to come up with at least logical assumptions to support your claims before labelling comments of other people as ridiculous!!

The Messiah himself said in Luke 24:46-47 that it is written and thus it behoved him to suffer , and to rise from the dead the third day. So HOW can you deny it and yet claim you believe what he said? (These are his words refuting what you said above about him not dying.) Revelation 1:17-18 also refutes your claim that he didn't die.

Luke 24:46-47 records the words of Jesus BEFORE the supposed crucifixion.
What tells us whether Jesus was really crucified or not are NOT his words BEFORE the supposed crucifixion but what tells us whether Jesus was really crucified or not are his words AFTER the supposed crucifixion. Likewise, prior to a boxing match, both boxers can say and predict they are going to be the winner, BUT what confirmed the winner is AFTER the match. So, show me the words of Jesus AFTER the supposed crucifixion that refuted my claims.

You provided absolutely NO PROOF that to say My Lord and My God is an expression of shock in the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. Some proof was what I asked you for. If you can provide some kind of proof that it truly is an idiom in their language for shock, then we can discuss it further. Until then it means nothing but something you think.

Here's the thing - if you believe the translators of the English-translated Bibles are reliable folks who knew what they were doing, then, there are no reasons for you to brush aside the exclamation mark in John 20:28 as meaningless. The translators placed the exclamation mark for a reason, and that is, to tell its readers that Thomas’ ‘My Lord and my God!’ is an expression of shock and disbelief. If, on the other hand, you believe the translators are unreliable and they have no clues what they are doing, then, if that’s true, we might as well just get rid of all the English-translated Bibles we have today!

And you still haven't explained if he wasn't God, how he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58

“Before Abraham was, I am” is an incomplete sentence. Any rational and logical person can see that. Try walking up to a stranger and said to him “Before the pandemic, I am” and then ask him, “do you understand what I just said or is my sentence incomplete?” and watch his reply.

The fact that Jesus said ‘Before Abraham’ and NOT ‘Before Adam’ tells us he was NOT talking about pre-existence but he was in a middle of an argument with the Jews concerning Abraham when he was rudely interrupted and unable to complete his sentence. Jesus could easily have meant to say “Before Abraham was, I am the Messiah” which then, will be about God’s foreknowledge of Jesus before he was formed in the womb of Mary. But we will never know what exactly Jesus was about to say in John 8:58 since he was interrupted midway in his speech and he has to run for cover…just like any man will do (don’t think God will run for cover).

Sorry but there weren't exclamation marks in the original. As a matter of fact, there isn't an exclamation mark in John 20:28 to begin with.

Sorry, the majority of the Bible readers around the world DO NOT read Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic texts to be dependent on the ‘original’. So, the understanding of John 20:28 STILL comes from reading the translated Bibles which have the exclamation mark! Your strawman arguments just don’t work in the real world.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Also keep in mind that if God is Jesus and if Jesus is God, we have many things that dont match and make sense.
Remember in Revelation that God "gave" Jesus that Revelation. Jesus never had until his father gave it to him.
Also Jesus told his disciples that only God knows certain things, not even Jesus or the angels knew that.

So you see that trinity or that Jesus is God thing you talk about doesnt even really make sense, does it........

I don't believe in the trinity, and I agree it doesn't make sense.

But the Messiah being YHWH does make sense, if you can understand the difference between the flesh (which is the body) God took on, and the Spirit of God. In response to your point, the Spirit gave the Revelation to the flesh. The flesh didn't even exist until birth.

There are just too many scriptures pointing to the fact he is God. You have to look for ways to try to discount or minimize them.

I believe that scripture you are referring to, where the Son didn't know what the Father knew has been tampered with. It doesn't match up with what the other two gospels say. Matthew 24:36 doesn't say that. ( I am low on time or I would find the other verse for you.) But Trinitarian translator's have worded things in such a way as to make it look like more than one in several places.

It's up to each of us as individuals to seek God for understanding, and decide what we believe. It's our own souls at stake. But it takes God to reveal it to us. Matthew 11:27 and Luke 10:22

 

[TrueBeliever37]

‘..without scripture to back it up’ ???!! You must be referring to yourself as you can’t even show me where in the whole of John 20 did it say Jesus was showing the wound marks to his disciples to support your claim Jesus was showing the wound marks to his disciples as proof that he was indeed crucified, died and resurrected??

Seems to me you are unable to see simple things said in the scriptures – the scripture said Jesus showed his hands and feet to his disciples, the scripture DID NOT say Jesus showed the wound marks of his crucifixion to his disciples, so, stop putting your own words into what the scripture DID NOT SAY, which I know will be quite difficult for you because you just cannot stop making silly assumptions that CANNOT BE logically supported even by the scripture!


And in the same passage of Mark 16, Jesus also gave the signs of the believers – “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” – Mark 16:17-18.

So, have you healed sick people by just placing your hands on them?? Have you drunk deadly poison?? ARE YOU a BELIEVER or are you just playing games with me?

It is hard to understand how a supposed believer thinks he’s a true believer when he consistently makes silly assumptions based on what is not in the scripture !!


Making illogical and irrational assumptions seems to be your greatest strength. Anyway, his hands, and feet, and sides were where the wounds were IF and ONLY IF Jesus was really crucified and you have yet to show me where in the passage of John 20 did it ever mention wound marks.

Moreover, if Jesus was really showing his wound to Thomas, does it make sense that Jesus would ask Thomas to put his finger into the wound ??! If Jesus was really crucified, does it make sense that Thomas would not have noticed the gaping wound on Jesus’ hands and feet that Jesus have to ask him to put his finger into the wound?? Jesus was supposed to be crucified with nails that are big enough to go through his hands and feet and into the wooden cross – you think Jesus was nailed to the cross with thumbtacks ???! You should first try to come up with at least logical assumptions to support your claims before labelling comments of other people as ridiculous!!


Luke 24:46-47 records the words of Jesus BEFORE the supposed crucifixion.
What tells us whether Jesus was really crucified or not are NOT his words BEFORE the supposed crucifixion but what tells us whether Jesus was really crucified or not are his words AFTER the supposed crucifixion. Likewise, prior to a boxing match, both boxers can say and predict they are going to be the winner, BUT what confirmed the winner is AFTER the match. So, show me the words of Jesus AFTER the supposed crucifixion that refuted my claims.


Here's the thing - if you believe the translators of the English-translated Bibles are reliable folks who knew what they were doing, then, there are no reasons for you to brush aside the exclamation mark in John 20:28 as meaningless. The translators placed the exclamation mark for a reason, and that is, to tell its readers that Thomas’ ‘My Lord and my God!’ is an expression of shock and disbelief. If, on the other hand, you believe the translators are unreliable and they have no clues what they are doing, then, if that’s true, we might as well just get rid of all the English-translated Bibles we have today!


“Before Abraham was, I am” is an incomplete sentence. Any rational and logical person can see that. Try walking up to a stranger and said to him “Before the pandemic, I am” and then ask him, “do you understand what I just said or is my sentence incomplete?” and watch his reply.

The fact that Jesus said ‘Before Abraham’ and NOT ‘Before Adam’ tells us he was NOT talking about pre-existence but he was in a middle of an argument with the Jews concerning Abraham when he was rudely interrupted and unable to complete his sentence. Jesus could easily have meant to say “Before Abraham was, I am the Messiah” which then, will be about God’s foreknowledge of Jesus before he was formed in the womb of Mary. But we will never know what exactly Jesus was about to say in John 8:58 since he was interrupted midway in his speech and he has to run for cover…just like any man will do (don’t think God will run for cover).


Sorry, the majority of the Bible readers around the world DO NOT read Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic texts to be dependent on the ‘original’. So, the understanding of John 20:28 STILL comes from reading the translated Bibles which have the exclamation mark! Your strawman arguments just don’t work in the real world.

Your arguments are just too lame. BYE

 

[JerryMyers]

Your arguments are just too lame. BYE

Typical response from someone who is unable to refute, logically and rationally, the arguments of the other party. In Jesus’ times, when they were unable to refute the arguments of the other party. they will accuse the other party of being possessed by demons, mad, and so on, and they threw stones which was what happened to Jesus as we are told in John 8. Today, we don’t expect them to throw stones, of course, but they will just accuse the arguments of the other party (which they are unable to refute logically and rationally) as ‘lame’, ‘worthless’ and so on, and they run off with their tails between their legs. Yup, can’t say I am surprised with your response.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Typical response from someone who is unable to refute, logically and rationally, the arguments of the other party. In Jesus’ times, when they were unable to refute the arguments of the other party. they will accuse the other party of being possessed by demons, mad, and so on, and they threw stones which was what happened to Jesus as we are told in John 8. Today, we don’t expect them to throw stones, of course, but they will just accuse the arguments of the other party (which they are unable to refute logically and rationally) as ‘lame’, ‘worthless’ and so on, and they run off with their tails between their legs. Yup, can’t say I am surprised with your response.

I refuted your arguments. But why even continue to discuss with someone unwilling to even acknowledge the Messiah died for our sins. You don't even believe he was crucified. How could I possibly convince someone so close minded of anything?

And you have been unwilling (or unable) to provide proof of your statements when asked for it. So why should I continue?

 

[JerryMyers]

I refuted your arguments. But why even continue to discuss with someone unwilling to even acknowledge the Messiah died for our sins. You don't even believe he was crucified. How could I possibly convince someone so close minded of anything?
And you have been unwilling (or unable) to provide proof of your statements when asked for it. So why should I continue?

You must be suffering from delusional disorder, you know, where you cannot differentiate perception and reality!! Let me bring you back to reality – I said, based on the words of Jesus AFTER the supposed crucifixion, Jesus was not crucified as it was written in your Bible Jesus only showed his hands, feet, and side, and no mention of any crucifixion wound marks, but you assume (which seems to be your trademark) Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks. I then asked you to back up your claim from your own Bible that Jesus was showing his crucifixion marks which till now you are still unable to provide !! I also said, AFTER the supposed crucifixion, Jesus assured his disciples he was not dead by telling them he’s NOT a ghost! Why did Jesus say he’s NOT a ghost?? Because everyone in the whole world, except you, knew only dead people can be ghosts!!

So, tell me again how did you refute my arguments ??! By your failure to provide any scriptural proof that the scripture said Jesus was showing his wound marks to his disciples ?? By making assumptions ??!

If you want me to acknowledge that Jesus was crucified and died, THEN, show me first where in your Bible did it say Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks to his disciples AFTER his supposed crucifixion. If you cannot even show me that, then how can you expect me to acknowledge that he died ?? The logic is simple, if Jesus was not crucified, how could he be killed, if he was not killed, then how can he be said to have been resurrected?? You know, your arguments on the wound marks would be thrown out in today’s court – imagine you accused someone of slashing your hands with a butcher knife, BUT you are NOT able to show to the court any wound marks on your hands….and you expect the court to believe you ??

Tell you what, I will give you another chance to salvage whatever integrity left in you by just showing me the verse(s) in your own Bible that clearly said or even implied Jesus was showing the crucifixion wound marks to his disciples – please don’t come out with silly responses like “I refuted all your arguments” when you have not, or “Your arguments are too lame” when your own arguments are based on illogical assumptions rather than on what your scripture really said or did not say.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You must be suffering from delusional disorder, you know, where you cannot differentiate perception and reality!! Let me bring you back to reality – I said, based on the words of Jesus AFTER the supposed crucifixion, Jesus was not crucified as it was written in your Bible Jesus only showed his hands, feet, and side, and no mention of any crucifixion wound marks, but you assume (which seems to be your trademark) Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks. I then asked you to back up your claim from your own Bible that Jesus was showing his crucifixion marks which till now you are still unable to provide !! I also said, AFTER the supposed crucifixion, Jesus assured his disciples he was not dead by telling them he’s NOT a ghost! Why did Jesus say he’s NOT a ghost?? Because everyone in the whole world, except you, knew only dead people can be ghosts!!

So, tell me again how did you refute my arguments ??! By your failure to provide any scriptural proof that the scripture said Jesus was showing his wound marks to his disciples ?? By making assumptions ??!

If you want me to acknowledge that Jesus was crucified and died, THEN, show me first where in your Bible did it say Jesus was showing his crucifixion wound marks to his disciples AFTER his supposed crucifixion. If you cannot even show me that, then how can you expect me to acknowledge that he died ?? The logic is simple, if Jesus was not crucified, how could he be killed, if he was not killed, then how can he be said to have been resurrected?? You know, your arguments on the wound marks would be thrown out in today’s court – imagine you accused someone of slashing your hands with a butcher knife, BUT you are NOT able to show to the court any wound marks on your hands….and you expect the court to believe you ??

Tell you what, I will give you another chance to salvage whatever integrity left in you by just showing me the verse(s) in your own Bible that clearly said or even implied Jesus was showing the crucifixion wound marks to his disciples – please don’t come out with silly responses like “I refuted all your arguments” when you have not, or “Your arguments are too lame” when your own arguments are based on illogical assumptions rather than on what your scripture really said or did not say.

Revelation 1:17-18 refutes your false narrative.

I'm not going to waste any more time on such a Ridiculous Post

 

[Muffled]

But Jesus telling Nicodemus to be born again is easily reconcilable - that figure of speech is not absurd when explained. But, on the other hand, regarding Jesus as God in any manner whatsoever, defies all rationale and plausibility.

I believe I have explained it very well. The Spirit in Jesus is God, the flesh of Jesus is not God.

 

[Muffled]

No I don't. I believe God was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in the church. 3 different manifestations of the one and only God - not 3 different persons.

So you believe wrong about me.

I believe then that you are talking about the real Trinity and not a church recognized one that strays from the truth.

However by the definition of person as having a personality, then God fits that definition and all three members of the Trinity are one person by that definition. However each member of the Trinity is a different kind of person. Jesus is the kind of person that has a human body. The Paraclete is a person expressed in millions of people.

 

[Muffled]

You think the Messiah was another person that was also God. I believe the Messiah was the one and only God who had taken on a fleshly body. There is a big difference.

I believe you have misconstrued what I said. I believe the latter as you stated it.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I believe I have explained it very well. The Spirit in Jesus is God, the flesh of Jesus is not God.

Muffled I am a little confused about your post, because in the past you seemed to have posts conflicting with this.

I have said there is no Trinity. The Messiah was both the Father and the Son. The Father was the eternal Spirit and was dwelling in the Son (the fleshly body). But it is not two distinct persons. Is that what you are agreeing to here?