How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Where's nit?

Correction 'night'

 

[loverofhumanity]

With regard to the above, the written word is that (in a Bahai World) Bahais would vote for LHJs, NHJs and the UHJ.

I like the picture in your avatar. Is that a new Bahai Temple?

The Universal House of Justice at 'night'. (Correction)

 

[Vinayaka]

If these religions were sufficient for our age we would have world peace by now. We have billions of 'religious people' on this planet yet no world peace exists and we even wars and conflicts between them. How so?

There are lots of peaceful individuals and religions. Bahai is another one added to a long list.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Six billion people plus are doing just fine without your prophet. But that is the nature of all prophet based religions, and groups who have a chosen infallible leader. In my view, that is an extremely narrow view. The world would still be here had Baha'u'llah (or any other leader/avatar/prophet/manifestation) never set foot on the place.

When have we ever had peace?

 

[Vinayaka]

When have we ever had peace?

You mean on the entire planet, I'm sure. I was speaking of individual time periods, or peoples in certain places. As long as there is an instinctive strata to mind, there won't be world peace of the kind you're speaking of. In South India, in Mauritius, in many lands, there is peace amongst people.

The coming of the Bahai hasn't changed much. Both world wars happened long after your prophet came. I do see a very slow progression here and there though, with or without Bahai. I also think Mahatma Gandhi did more for world peace than Baha'u'llah in spreading his message of non-violence. A true inspiration to many he was.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If these religions were sufficient for our age we would have world peace by now. We have billions of 'religious people' on this planet yet no world peace exists and we even wars and conflicts between them. How so?

You are looking at politics not individual people. There are many people without the need for bahaullah in their kwn communities and/or self that are at inner and greater peace. Non abrahamics tend to value the journey even if in some religions it takes life times. The Buddha tauht, for example, not to change the laws of nature to end suffering but to change our mind. Has nothing to do with god or anyone but oneself.

Its not realistic to expect world peace. We have to accept that wars do happen and illnesses and so forth. Understand the nature of suffering and how to change our views so it wont affect us to delusions.

But if you treat world war as a global problem that has to do with "old religions" youre causing division. If you address the individual, thats much healthier. Since there are thosands of people in the world, why expect world peace?

Whats wrong with the journey?

Just because there is no world peace doesnt mean the old ways dont work and need to be updated. Again, thats tearing the heart of individual people and communities that value their traditions and these traditions help them towards world peace.

Being bahai doesnt change anything but the believer.

 

[Vinayaka]

@lover of humanity ... This thread has some excellent poinys about world peace, and our slow progression towards it.

Is world peace coming?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You mean on the entire planet, I'm sure. I was speaking of individual time periods, or peoples in certain places. As long as there is an instinctive strata to mind, there won't be world peace of the kind you're speaking of. In South India, in Mauritius, in many lands, there is peace amongst people.

The coming of the Bahai hasn't changed much. Both world wars happened long after your prophet came. I do see a very slow progression here and there though, with or without Bahai. I also think Mahatma Gandhi did more for world peace than Baha'u'llah in spreading his message of non-violence. A true inspiration to many he was.

Anticipation of war is enough. So many funds are tied up in military budgets or in defence budgets that could be invested in the people. This is the kind of world we live in that instead of investing in the education, health and well being of people we invest heavily in things like nuclear weapons while people starve.

The world needs peace not just for its non violent advantages but also that it will release huge amounts of capital for things like universal healthcare, universal employment and universal education.

Whether a country is at war or not is irrelevant. Countries still spend $billions on defence that could be invested in people.

If we have or anticipate peace then why all this money poured into weapons to kill instead of into things that enhance and improve people's lives?

Baha'u'llah's call for the governments of the earth to unite fell on deaf ears otherwise we would have world disarmament and a much better life for most.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you know that for example in early Christianity, some Christians called Jesus, 'the Mirror of God'?
And this is what Bahaullah teaches too.
Or, did you know some early Jews, and early Christians believed the story of Creation in Genesis is symbolic, and Prophetic?
And that is what Bahai Scriptures teaches too.
Do you know, in Shia Islam, in the Recorded Traditions of Imams, there are explicit sayings that, Day of Resurrection is the Day that the Promised one comes and that by resurrecting the Dead, is meant, to change unbelievers to believers.
And that is also what Bahai Scriptures teach...

It seems not everyone had got it wrong, doesn't it?

However, religion is not only limited to these symbolic interpretations. It has many other explicit teachings, specially ethics, and good deeds. So, i am sure there were little misunderstanding regarding these teachings.

The "Mirror of God"? Who were these Christians and what else did they believe?

Who were these Christians and Jews that believed the story of Creation in Genesis is "symbolic, and Prophetic" and what else did they believe?

Lazarus was a follower of Jesus and died. He was not an unbeliever. Supposedly, a whole bunch of dead people came out of the grave and walked around Jerusalem. Why would it say that if it only meant that some people went from "unbelievers to believers"? Especially at a time when even Peter was denying Jesus? They say Jesus came back to life and walked around. So does that mean he went from unbelief to belief? No, you say it was his followers, the "Body of Christ", that came back to life. But no, it didn't. After three days they were still down in the dumps until they saw the empty tomb, and then spoke to the risen Christ.

That is what the NT says. If you don't believe it then say so. But instead, you reinterpret a historical report by alleged eyewitnesses. They claimed to be reporting real events, not telling symbolic stories.

And still, you didn't answer anything regarding Hinduism and reincarnation. Baha'u'llah had the original teachings right there in his mind from whoever the manifestation was that brought Hinduism from God to the people. What did he really teach? Who does Baha'u'llah say changed the true teachings of Hinduism and brought in the notion of reincarnation?

So please don't give that "It seems not everyone had got it wrong, doesn't it?" stuff. Show me how they got it right, all of it, not just a few things here and there. Show me how the main, conservative, fundamental, orthodox religions have anything right when compared to what the Baha'i Faith says is true? Because it is the Baha'is that have been saying those people and their religions have got it wrong.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are looking at politics not individual people. There are many people without the need for bahaullah in their kwn communities and/or self that are at inner and greater peace. Non abrahamics tend to value the journey even if in some religions it takes life times. The Buddha tauht, for example, not to change the laws of nature to end suffering but to change our mind. Has nothing to do with god or anyone but oneself.

Its not realistic to expect world peace. We have to accept that wars do happen and illnesses and so forth. Understand the nature of suffering and how to change our views so it wont affect us to delusions.

But if you treat world war as a global problem that has to do with "old religions" youre causing division. If you address the individual, thats much healthier. Since there are thosands of people in the world, why expect world peace?

Whats wrong with the journey?

Just because there is no world peace doesnt mean the old ways dont work and need to be updated. Again, thats tearing the heart of individual people and communities that value their traditions and these traditions help them towards world peace.

Being bahai doesnt change anything but the believer.

The old ways don't work anymore. People are being massacred in many places. There is no peace. Ignoring the plight of others and just focusing on ourselves is selfish. Humanity are all brothers and sisters and to be unfeeling and uncaring about those who suffer just because we are fine is heartless.

To give up and say there's nothing we can do and that there will always be wars is typical of people who've just lost hope and think that nothing can be done so surrender.

Humanity is our family and they deserve better.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah's call for the governments of the earth to unite fell on deaf ears otherwise we would have world disarmament and a much better life for most.

The way you put this, it sounds like Baha'u'llah was the one and only person advocating for world peace. This is simply not true. Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, and a ton of other great secular and religious leaders have been putting forth peaceful messages and calls for a very long time. Indigenous groups and cultures from all around the planet were peaceful. Baha'u'llah was/is just one of several. Again, it certainly isn't a unique message.

Here's a small list: U Thant Peace Award - Wikipedia

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is what I figured. I understood about all the war and everything, inner and outer peace, and all of that.

Though, if I took it personally, that would mean I have no peace because I am not in the Bahai community.

The community or society are made up of actual individual people. Individual Christians, Muslims, Hindu, and Buddhist (and others) have their faith with peace with others. Bahai are not the only ones.

You can't judge a person's peace and their displacement from Bahai on society's problems. Diversity means respecting people who have their own peace

inner peace and real peace

without being part of the Bahai community.

If that is impossible to do, then your faith is specifically a dominate faith. Nothing wrong with it in and of itself. Everyone has a right to believe what they choose.

We don't have peace now is Baha'u'llah is out of the equation​

I have to quote you directly. When I don't, it seems you go around the bush. This is my whole point.

We can.

You are just not giving other religions enough credit to do so without incorporating their teachings into the Bahai faith. It's completely disrespectful without their agreement in the matter. But if this is how you see it, there will be no agreement.

You are contributing to division just as every other person you say are. This post proves it. I don't know what else to say.

You misunderstood my words. The 'Bahá'í Community' as a community has no wars with anyone. Other communities do and always have. On the list of conflicts I posted from religious tolerance.org every religion was shown except Bahá'í because we are not involved in any wars. All religions from the Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists in Burma ands Sri Lanka to the Christians in Northern Ireland to the Sunnis and Shiahs in the Middle East have all had major wars with some ongoing between the Christian west and Islam and Islam and Islam and Buddhists and Rohinga.

We are comprised of people from over 2100 tribes and over 200 countries and all denominations and religions on earth yet are not at war with anyone.

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem is we can't assume that what Christians believe is what Christ taught. There are even more variables at play with Hinduism. Comparing what Christians and Hindus believe, therefore doesn't allow a fair comparison between what Christ and Krishna really taught.

Science has had a marked impact on Christianity's understanding of the world. I don't need to go into the implications of Galileo or Darwinism. Science has completely ruled out creationists theories based on a literal interpretation of genesis. Many stories in the bible are now rightly seen as myth rather than literal historic events.

So let's not assume. So we have the NT written by the followers of Jesus. Are those writers infallible? I'd say no. Is what they wrote the infallible Word of God? I doubt it. What do Baha'is say? I already know you don't believe they interpreted it correctly.

Which Hindu writings do Baha'is consider to be from God? Who wrote them and are they the infallible Word of God? Since they teach reincarnation, I'd have to say that Baha'is don't accept them as the infallible Word of God.

Now for science. Have you debated any of the Young Earth Creationist Christians? Not that I believe them, but I think they have some very good arguments why the Earth isn't millions of years old.

 

[Vinayaka]

The old ways don't work anymore. People are being massacred in many places. There is no peace. Ignoring the plight of others and just focusing on ourselves is selfish. Humanity are all brothers and sisters and to be unfeeling and uncaring about those who suffer just because we are fine is heartless.

To give up and say there's nothing we can do and that there will always be wars is typical of people who've just lost hope and think that nothing can be done so surrender.

Humanity is our family and they deserve better.

I traveled in South India. Hindus, Christians, and Muslims worked side by side. The only crime was petty crime. Very few murders, very little serious crime. I felt safer there than in America, or most likely I would in Australia. Again, most of what you are referring to comes from greed, Abrahamic intolerance and exploitation. If you bought a shirt in the last 6 months, good chance it was made by some sort of exploited labour. So we're all interconnected, we all contribute to the problems. No one saviour can come along and wave a magic wand. If there was such a true saviour, surely he would have done that by now.

 

[Vinayaka]

You misunderstood my words. The 'Bahá'í Community' as a community has no wars with anyone. Other communities do and always have. On the list of conflicts I posted from religious tolerance.org every religion was shown except Bahá'í because we are not involved in any wars. All religions from the Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists in Burma ands Sri Lanka to the Christians in Northern Ireland to the Sunnis and Shiahs in the Middle East have all had major wars with some ongoing between the Christian west and Islam and Islam and Islam and Buddhists and Rohinga.

We are comprised of people from over 2100 tribes and over 200 countries and all denominations and religions on earth yet are not at war with anyone.

I'm personally not at war with anyone either. Hindus aren't at war right now either, as far as I know, although Islamisation is a problem, just as persecution of Bahais in Iran is a problem too I guess, although I'm officially neutral out of a lack of first hand knowledge.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's something you either have to accept or live hoping for the promised one to come to make things better again. In Christianity, (outside of JW view), mainstream says jesus won't make world peace on earth. He said Christians will have new bodies and be with god forever. There is no "world" peace in Christianity. Likewise with Buddhism. The Buddha doesn't talk about world peace but peace of mind. He said life is suffering how to end suffering is not to change the world but to change one's self.

If actual Christianity and Buddhism are part of your faith, they totally contradict what you have said in your last two posts.

The old ways don't work anymore. People are being massacred in many places. There is no peace. Ignoring the plight of others and just focusing on ourselves is selfish. Humanity are all brothers and sisters and to be unfeeling and uncaring about those who suffer just because we are fine is heartless.

There is no such thing as old ways. If you accept and respect diversity, you would have interest to understand this and why. Do you have interest?

Keeping old ways does not mean people don't want world peace. Again, tradition is held because it is meant to be handed on from one generation to the next. It gives the individual and the religious community a sense of being and origin. These traditions are relevant for yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Traditions don't case war. People do.

To give up and say there's nothing we can do and that there will always be wars is typical of people who've just lost hope and think that nothing can be done so surrender.

No. If you follow Buddhism as well as other faiths in Bahai, you'd understand that the laws of nature are based on cause and affect or karma. What we do will affect us, people, and our environment like a ripple effect that we may or may not see. You cannot change the laws of nature to build world peace.

Since there are many religions that are one-dominate and others that are not, Bahaullah cannot be the source of world peace (nor Christ and Muhammad etc). There has to be mutual understanding and agreement to even get to world peace.

But as long as you stick with Bahaullah, that's already division just as many other abrahamic religions. It's ironic, too. Bahaullah says respect diversity but if you want world peace follow him and the prophets.

Humanity is our family and they deserve better.

Yes by respect people's religions without needing them to comform to Bahaullah's teachings rather than their own.

By not referring to their teachings as "old ways" and taking interest in understanding their traditions as we continue to read about all of your bahai quotes to understand yours.

You don't have to agree with me. I just don't think you either don't understand, don't want to understand, or have no interest.

 

[Vinayaka]

@lover of humanity.. Here's a nice article about the lasting effects of one Gandhi fellow...

60 years after death, Gandhi is making world a better place

 

[CG Didymus]

This is where I have some difficulty too. Any cursory reading tells you that the core teachings are so very very different, and yet somehow Bahaus seem so absolutely determined to see that they're not. I find it quite remarkable. Yet, we have intelligent coherent people here. It makes about as much sense as someone claiming the landscape of mountains is the same as a flat desert.

Ah, young one, we must see with the all-seeing eye from high above. The whole Earth looks flat and you can't see any landscaping. You may ask, "Yes wise one, but still one is brownish and the other greenish." Ah, very observant annoyingly persistent one. But look again, this time close you eyes and mind. Do you see any differences? No, there is none." So, as I have plainly proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that although they may appear different... they are, in essence, one.

 

[Vinayaka]

By not referring to their teachings as "old ways" and taking interest in understanding their traditions as we continue to read about all of your bahai quotes to understand yours.

I always get a chuckle when I hear 'old ways' . My faith has totally adapted to a modern world, as have many others. Many of those 'old ways' work far better than the new ways. People are turning to health techniques like ayurvedic medicine and acupuncture all the time. Why? Nothing works better than tried and tested.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You misunderstood my words. The 'Bahá'í Community' as a community has no wars with anyone. Other communities do and always have. On the list of conflicts I posted from religious tolerance.org every religion was shown except Bahá'í because we are not involved in any wars. All religions from the Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists in Burma ands Sri Lanka to the Christians in Northern Ireland to the Sunnis and Shiahs in the Middle East have all had major wars with some ongoing between the Christian west and Islam and Islam and Islam and Buddhists and Rohinga.

We are comprised of people from over 2100 tribes and over 200 countries and all denominations and religions on earth yet are not at war with anyone.

That does not mean anything in regards to spirituality just numbers and politics. Who are you actually addressing when you want to fix these wars?

I mean, the Catholics I live among, Muslims, etc work around each other. At school is Muslim dominated but they chit chat with the rest of their friends of different nationalities and religions. I certainly don't cause wars (at least none with rifles and guns but maybe in my head). Bahai isn't perfect just because you say there were no wars between you guys. If you believe in Christianity, you are all sinners too. If Buddhism, you're also delusional.

If you want to have world peace you have to do so on an individual level. That's why there are Catholic Charities and other religions that do work towards peace and they don't have unrealistic assumptions that there will be world peace at all without addressing the individual person's spiritual well-being.

Bahaullah being a messenger of god doesn't correlate with Christ being a son of god. If you want world peace, you have to address the conflicts on the other side rather than keep telling us yourside.

We know your side. What about ours?