How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

I traveled in South India. Hindus, Christians, and Muslims worked side by side. The only crime was petty crime. Very few murders, very little serious crime. I felt safer there than in America, or most likely I would in Australia. Again, most of what you are referring to comes from greed, Abrahamic intolerance and exploitation. If you bought a shirt in the last 6 months, good chance it was made by some sort of exploited labour. So we're all interconnected, we all contribute to the problems. No one saviour can come along and wave a magic wand. If there was such a true saviour, surely he would have done that by now.

I agree we need to solve the problems. Baha'is see the only way to solve the problems is to build a new world civilisation. We feel this one is so entrenched in materialism and greed that it cannot be fixed.

Our understanding is that while the 'old world' is rolled up, we are slowly spreading out a new world. A world based on unconditional universal acceptance of all people as one human family.

This means the elimination of prejudices of all kinds whether radical, religious or national.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, of course. But I don't want a vote. You?

I get told off by Mrs Badger when I show total carelessness about my present right to vote. She makes me go to the polling-booths in the most adverse cionditions. And, anyway, I always vote for some candidate that only gets half a dozen votes.

To be told by a World Government that I can stay indoors, feet up in front of the fire, snoozing in front of the telly.... would be one of the happier moments in that week.

Why...... I might even vote such a government into power!

 

[oldbadger]

Beyond education and cultural influences I presume its the innate knowledge of the Manifestations of God you find the most unbelievable. To properly discount that, you would need to demonstrate that Baha'u'llah's revelation is not Divinely inspired.

I think the above is called 'Special Pleading'.
That's a weak gambit for you.

Another example? Hmmm...... The Studd Hill Full Moon Frolickers has a Divinely inspired doctrine which was passed down to Oldbadger one night whilst completely wiped out and suffering from alcohol poisoning.... again.

To discount this bounteous revelation you would need to demonstrate that it was not Divinely inspired. Giood luck with that.!!

 

[oldbadger]

Most of us on this thread are quite clear now about the beliefs of the Bahai. Do you have any personal insights on it, or are you just going to continue large chunks of 'cut and paste' which really isn't debate at all?

Hi..... again!
Actually, the written words of the Bahai Prophet Bahauallah are the only words that I focus intensely upon!

Same with Christians, who can offer widely differing ideas. I prefer to be shown what Jesus said or did, rather than, say, Paul.

I like to converse with folks, sure, and debate, but when speaking with Bahais I ask for original sourse for everything. The trouble for me is that I am not interested in the words of any later Bahai Prophets, or officials etc.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think the above is called 'Special Pleading'.
That's a weak gambit for you.

Its the long game. Haven't you noticed? We're running a marathon here!

Another example? Hmmm...... The Studd Hill Full Moon Frolickers has a Divinely inspired doctrine which was passed down to Oldbadger one night whilst completely wiped out and suffering from alcohol poisoning.... again.

To discount this bounteous revelation you would need to demonstrate that it was not Divinely inspired. Giood luck with that.!!

Your excitement is palpable. I already accept her bounteous divinity on that basis alone.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So let's not assume. So we have the NT written by the followers of Jesus. Are those writers infallible? I'd say no. Is what they wrote the infallible Word of God? I doubt it. What do Baha'is say? I already know you don't believe they interpreted it correctly.

The writers were most likely not eyewitnesses, reported what they heard, and were deeply touched by the outpourings of the Holy Spirit that were in abundance at that time.

Which Hindu writings do Baha'is consider to be from God? Who wrote them and are they the infallible Word of God? Since they teach reincarnation, I'd have to say that Baha'is don't accept them as the infallible Word of God.

The Baha'i writings say little if anything about the authority of Hindu writings.

Now for science. Have you debated any of the Young Earth Creationist Christians? Not that I believe them, but I think they have some very good arguments why the Earth isn't millions of years old.

I haven't. Its not a topic that interests me. I have a science, medical, and post graduate medical degree so advocate for science and reason. The last creationist that I spoke to informed me that the writers of the Flintstones really knew a thing or two because man and dinosaurs used to live side by side. I think to engage in these types of discussions provides legitimacy to the nonsensical.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'u'llah is the One Who has come with an actual peace plan with instructions on how to achieve it,

This is your belief. Again, you're not giving people credit for what they have done towards world peace especially on an individual level.

Other religions were revealed at a different time for different reasons but did not address world peace primarily because the world had not yet been discovered or nations established.

This is your belief but people are working towards world peace daily. Our society is made up of people not just people we see on t.v. but our neighbors and people in our environment. If you don't see world peace through them if they differ in your belief, you won't see world peace as a whole.

They have addressed it. Regardless if it has not work, again, it is not the result it is the journey towards it. It is realistic to assume world peace will arrive. That's a nice belief but we are just not peaceful people. The fact we are in part competition oriented in nature makes it hard to come to world peace.

However, even if there were no wars, peace comes individuality or as a community. A family can be a family without having arguments in their home. If they don't have inner peace with themselves and each other, they still are at argument with their spirit.

Address it at an individual level.

So you will not find in the Quran, Torah, Bible or Buddhist and Hindu Holy Books any references to world peace.

This is completely not true and an insult to all the religions you have in your religion. I don't know if I should be surprised that you said this.​

However, now, because of advances in technology, travel and communications, when all the world's races, religions and nationalities are intermingling and coming into closer contact than ever before, we are in need of a global ethic.

I feel we are getting worse. I also believe when we go back to how we were before and incorporating (not replacing) old traditions of thought and practice for example in medicine we not only help cure the body, we also help cure the mind and spirit. My friend tells me in the Philippines when one is physically sick and goes for a checkup, the doctor helps them with their spiritual health not just physical. That's beautiful right there.

Taking that out is tearing the heart of that culture's soul. That's horrible.

Baha'u'llah brings that ethic based on the oneness of humanity and the spiritual oneness of religion.

We do not Bahaullah. You're a one-dominate faith if you claim this true. Bahaullah has no place in our world peace. He is not a foundation of it. If you don't understand this, you don't respect diversity in truths. Period.

We are stuck in a kind of limbo because no one really knows how to establish peace. Issues not commonly associated with peace must be addressed if we are to have peace.

If you address it at an individual level, you'll find the opposite. Maybe it's hard to work together as a society but many communities and people as a whole work together. A lot of them, Catholics included, value the journey towards the goal. Just because we haven't arrived at the goal doesn't mean we are not headed towards it. I just find it unrealistic. Many religions actually do find it that way but rather work together for it at an individual or community level.

Extremes of wealth and poverty keeps war always on the agenda.

Until women have a large say in international affairs, peace cannot happen because it has been mostly male aggression which has driven wars.

The conflicts between religions must be addressed.religious fanaticism must be addressed or how can we have world peace?

Unfettered nationalism is always keeping nations in a state of confrontation

Weapons of mass destruction which can reach other nations are an enormous threat to world peace because they elevate tension but also nations use these weapons as a deterrent to justice being administered them from oppressing their own people.

Human rights must become universal otherwise civil wars will never end.

So it's not just a matter of one individual meditating and creating good karma for himself but the restructuring of our society which is based on out date laws.

All of this is political issues not individual spiritual crisis that doesn't make up the population as a whole. If you're not looking at it positively, of course you will not arrive at world peace anymore than the Christian besides me who pushes Christ on people at an unhealthy level. You guys have to change your perspective. It's an individual or community journey. Society won't work together as a whole unless they address themselves as people first.

We live in one world but are trying to apply ancient laws to it and it's clearly not working.

The ancient laws work on an individual level. They help people have a sense of self and spirituality. Traditions and old laws are carried for reason. If you take them away, you tear the heart of a person.

That is a terrible thing to say.

We need to address world peace collectively and individually. Both society and the individual need to transform and only religion can achieve this transformation.

All of what you said was collectively. None of what you said addressed people individually. You've told people without Bahaullah there will be no world peace. You have told them that their old ways are no longer relevant for world peace. You have told them that they are practicing old ways and need to "upgrade."

Peace starts with you loverofhumanity. Change your perspective of the world at an individual level ans as all religions in their own way do this gradually, then society world peace may happen. It's not old ways it's just how all of you god-religions are set up. You want people to come to Bahaullah. Christians Christ. Jews and Muslims to god. and so forth. You guys won't come to world peace as prophet-faiths. Expand your horizons with your own voice or voice as a community and stop depending on someone (especially someone who isn't alive) to dictate world peace that starts with people who are alive.

My faith brings spirits and our ancestors to world peace. I try to practice the old ways, if you like, because it brings me peace of mind. Taking that away from me is an insult and hurts my soul.

Why would you do such a thing to an individual person if you want to address things individually not just as a society?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I learned there are many doctors that treat one illness. If you read my example about my eye condition, I found there are at least five different doctor's I've seen that addressed my eyes when I thought I was going blind. No, there is no one doctor. Spirituality is individual or community based (depending on country and culture).

If you have an illness and find a remedy does it matter who is the doctor? Yet you make such an issue of Baha'u'llah even though He has provided a remedy for the illness of this age which is the recognition of the oneness of humanity.

The Buddha provides teachings for peace and so do Christ. I respect them more because in the former The Buddha addresses the source of the illness which is the mind. The latter focuses on peace at a spiritual level that is not taught in Buddhism. Both want world peace but the way they do it is different. Buddhism doesn't do what Bahai and other prophet-religions do. It's based on practice and they value the journey. Christ promotes peace only among other christians and wants all people to come to his father. He doesn't agree with Bahai because Bahaullah, in hebrew text, is not a messenger of god. He'd call him a fool.

Each religion has their own doctor. The sooner you understand that, the closer to world peace you'll get to with mutual respect and acceptance of the truths (with an -s) of other religions.

 

[Vinayaka]

But Baha'u'llah is the only One to address world peace collectively to humanity in His Holy Books.

Simply not true. In Hinduism, and in any modern teachers in other faiths, their written works are also considered 'scripture' by those adherents. The 'difference' you are attempting to point out is only because Bahis themselves (just like any other modern group) have starting terming their teacher's words as scripture.

Bu I seriously doubt many of the billions of non-Bahai see it as scripture at all, but simply as musings of a leader.

 

[Vinayaka]

Our understanding is that while the 'old world' is rolled up, we are slowly spreading out a new world. A world based on unconditional universal acceptance of all people as one human family.

This means the elimination of prejudices of all kinds whether radical, religious or national.

The first step, then would be to eliminate this 'us versus them' idea. I mean Bahai versus non-Bahai. That type of exclusivism about humanity is at the very root of the same problems you speak of.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you. More information or literature? Rajoguna I have not heard of before. Can you elaborate if you have time or some links please?

He is referring to the ancient Vedic diagnosing system (another of those 'old ways' that Bahai would consider tossing in File 13) of spitting human nature into 3 qualities. Here's a long paper on it by a modern Vedic scholar.

The Three Gunas: How to Balance Your Consciousness

 

[Vinayaka]

The Baha'i writings say little if anything about the authority of Hindu writings.

Thank you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

He is referring to the ancient Vedic diagnosing system (another of those 'old ways' that Bahai would consider tossing in File 13) of spitting human nature into 3 qualities. Here's a long paper on it by a modern Vedic scholar.

The Three Gunas: How to Balance Your Consciousness

That's an awesome site. I've always been interested in Ayurvedic healing and I'm interest more now.

Why don't you try and understand by old ways I'm referring to things like stoning, cutting hands off thieves, holy war etc great things like Ayurveda or natural healing. We want to keep customs and traditions that serve humanity and get rid of only the ones which are harmful.

That course in Ayurvedic medicine is so tempting.

 

[loverofhumanity]

He is referring to the ancient Vedic diagnosing system (another of those 'old ways' that Bahai would consider tossing in File 13) of spitting human nature into 3 qualities. Here's a long paper on it by a modern Vedic scholar.

The Three Gunas: How to Balance Your Consciousness

Here's a Baha'i studies paper regarding Ayurvedic Healing showing that it may be endorsed by Baha'u'llah.

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/r/rawlings_maharishi_ayurveda.pdf

 

[Vinayaka]

Why don't you try and understand by old ways I'm referring to things like stoning, cutting hands off thieves, holy war etc great things like Ayurveda or natural healing. We want to keep customs and traditions that serve humanity and get rid of only the ones which are harmful.

It would help if you didn't make such a sweeping generalisation like 'old ways'. If you mean the brutality of Islam, why not just say that, instead of 'old ways'.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It would help if you didn't make such a sweeping generalisation like 'old ways'. If you mean the brutality of Islam, why not just say that, instead of 'old ways'.

Because at that time, without jails or prisons to contain killers, rapist and thieves who were serial offenders and could not be detained for re education, those laws were appropriate to deter others and maintain law and order.

It may be considered brutal now in our age because we have the means, resources and facilities to punish, rehabilitate and re educate criminals more humanely but they didn't have that luxury then.

There was a context and perspective 1400 years ago that doesn't apply today

 

[loverofhumanity]

The first step, then would be to eliminate this 'us versus them' idea. I mean Bahai versus non-Bahai. That type of exclusivism about humanity is at the very root of the same problems you speak of.

What we have I think, is a clash of cultures and religions and as I said in my previous post, some laws, traditions and customs which may have been appropriate for 1,000 years ago are no longer a panacea but a poison today, but some things like ahimsa are a blessing so we need to discard some useless shibboleths yet keep what is of service to humanity. That is basically what Baha'u'llah has done. We can learn from trial, error or suffering or have a look at what He suggests.

It's not an 'us vs them' paradigm as much as a 'new vs old' one where new ways are needed for a world that is now intermingling racially, religiously and nationally. We need a global ethic to replace exclusivism. And 'some' old ways need to be redefined for our age. Reasonable?

So things like universal human rights and the oneness of humanity attempt to address the universal nature of our new global paradigm with our world interconnectedness and seek to establish a world identity.

For instance you still are a Hindu but the interests of humanity perhaps should come first. Americans can still love America but as a global identity America maybe needs to learn to sometimes put humanity first which means ocassionally it would have to put its own interests aside.

What the world needs is to develop its spiritual balance. It has become imbalanced by excessive materialistic pursuits and lost its spiritual compass. When that is restored the benefits of spiritual health will Bless every aspect of our lives.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here's a Baha'i studies paper regarding Ayurvedic Healing showing that it may be endorsed by Baha'u'llah.

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/r/rawlings_maharishi_ayurveda.pdf

Because at that time, without jails or prisons to contain killers, rapist and thieves who were serial offenders and could not be detained for re education, those laws were appropriate to deter others and maintain law and order.

In my opinion, stoning was never appropriate. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I learned there are many doctors that treat one illness. If you read my example about my eye condition, I found there are at least five different doctor's I've seen that addressed my eyes when I thought I was going blind. No, there is no one doctor. Spirituality is individual or community based (depending on country and culture).


The Buddha provides teachings for peace and so do Christ. I respect them more because in the former The Buddha addresses the source of the illness which is the mind. The latter focuses on peace at a spiritual level that is not taught in Buddhism. Both want world peace but the way they do it is different. Buddhism doesn't do what Bahai and other prophet-religions do. It's based on practice and they value the journey. Christ promotes peace only among other christians and wants all people to come to his father. He doesn't agree with Bahai because Bahaullah, in hebrew text, is not a messenger of god. He'd call him a fool.

Each religion has their own doctor. The sooner you understand that, the closer to world peace you'll get to with mutual respect and acceptance of the truths (with an -s) of other religions.

I love the Teachings of Buddha and they inspire me every time I contemplate on the Dhammapada and with Christ His Words in the Beautitudes give me so much comfort and peace and when I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah I am filled with hope in humanity's future.

I love them all. They are all equal Treasuries of Truth. They are all Divine Physicians.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's not an 'us vs them' paradigm as much as a 'new vs old' one where new ways are needed for a world that is now intermingling racially, religiously and nationally. We need a global ethic to replace exclusivism. And 'some' old ways need to be redefined for our age. Reasonable?

All prophet based religions hold an 'us vs them' mentality, as far as I can tell.