I think the law of stoning is in the Torah but not the Quran. But the Jews discontinued using it because at the time if they enforced the law for adultery, not a soul would have remained so they had to modify the law in order to survive.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
I think the law of stoning is in the Torah but not the Quran. But the Jews discontinued using it because at the time if they enforced the law for adultery, not a soul would have remained so they had to modify the law in order to survive.
It's still being done. Totally brutal.
I think the followers and clergy definitely do but let's say your guru tells you you are doing some thing wrong and need to change your technique? Isn't he creating a division of 'us and them'? He being the teacher and you the student? Isn't that a legitimate use of education?
Same too with the Manifestations. They are Teachers Who want to help us. Though they do stand up firmly against all forms of oppression and injustice they have real love and concern for our well being.
I don't see your point. What I meant was how Bahais or Christians or whomever view their particular teacher as the only one with true knowledge. At least with Bahai, the rest of us aren't portrayed as totally evil, or only worthy of slavery or slaughter, as we are in some of the other sects within other Abrahamic faiths. Bahais at least recognise some value within other religions, even if it isn't as great as Bahai.
But we are beyond borders. I thing Doctors without Borders exemplifies the attitude that I am thinking about. It seems that with prophet based religions, there is always this reference to the prophet's words, the dual thinking of good/evil, the "Are you a Bahai?" question being of utmost importance. I find that almost overwhelming identification to be almost like national pride.
Humanity first, yes, with or without Hinduism, with or without Bahai. Peace has no religious identification. God is beyond the externalities and bondage of religion.
These traditions definitely need to be discarded and replaced by more humane ways of treating criminals.
Its about humanity not us. We are just servants of humanity nothing more.
I think over time they've degenerated into that but initially they were very spiritual.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
See, when we talk about Religion, by its definition, it is not just a natural event. We cannot look at religion, and try to analyze it according to what happens in everyday life. What do I mean? I mean, Religions have a supper natural components into it, as that is what it teaches, and that is the power of inspiration. You asked me, who were those Jews or Christians who knew the correct interpretations of symbolic verses? Bahaullah says, when people clean their heart, it reflects the true knowledge. Indeed, this has been the final goal of every Religion that God revealed. To create people with pure hearts. And Bahaullah is a clear example of how a pure heart can reflect the true understanding that comes from divine inspiration. But ordinary people, like us, would get to that level of purity rarely. This is why, in previous Ages, there has been some believers who understood the True meaning of the Words of God, but they were not as many.
We cannot say, why only rare people had this ability, because they were the ones who tried to purify their heart. Everyone has the potential, so, it is up to us. But we are too concern with materialistic and worldly things. How can we say, we have purified our hearts, when we can lie sometimes, we are jealous, we have greed, we give too much importance to lust and we go after it... what Bahaullah wishes for everyone, to be able to go beyond animal nature of human, and achieve a higher spiritual station. One of the signs of truely being spiritual, is showing the signs of inspiration and true understanding.
But in our Age, many people know the symbolic meanings of the Words of God, and that is not just because they discovered it, but because, in this Age, Bahaullah revealed it, so now we know. You may wonder, why then Previous Manifestations did not reveal their true interpretations, and why it was left for Bahaullah? But that is a long discussion, which I prefer not to go in that direction here.
.
In all religions, we see traces of mystical return. What is intended by this, is, just as the world goes through the cycle of Seasons every year, and that is, Spring, summer, fall, winter, and again Spring, summer..... In the same way the spiritual world goes through this cycle. The Spring begins by Spiritual return of the Manifestation of God. Then, in the same way, those who believe in Him, are the return of believers of past Ages, and those who disbelieve are the return of disbelievers of past ages, and His enemies, are the return of enemies of the previous Manifestations. But all of this, in symbolic and mystical sense, which is indeed spiritual. So, just as we say Elijah has returned, we also say Pharisees who were enemies of Christ, also returned, and these were the Religious Leaders that were enemies of the Bab, or Bahaullah.... I believe all Religions taught this mystical return, which its interpretation is symbolic. Those previous Manifestations did talk about return, but an interpretation of this by ordinary people, based on their own imagination, was the souls of past people, enter or incarnates in a new body, and sometimes in animals. This was a literal interpretation. Bahai Scripture teaches, it has a symbolic interpretation, not literal. So, just as, for example, Bahais do not believe, the dead literally is raised to life again, but it is to be interpreted Metaphorically, likewise 'Return', is symbolic. When you take the concept of 'Return' and 'Cycle', taught by Krishna, literally, then you would understand it as incarnation, but if you take it symbolic, you understand it as mystical return. The choice is yours, how you want to see it and how you want to believe what actually Krishna meant.
Last edited:
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Its about humanity not us? If not us, who is the humanity made up of?
The authorities are the criminals. Stoning is a crime against humanity. Unbelievably brutal. How can a mind even go there? But such is the brutality in that religion. Still Bahai honour and respect it?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
As you know, what Bahaullah taught was, in Holy Books, there are many symbolic and figurative verses. He taught , there are verses, that are spiritual Reality, not literal fact. So, when Bahaullah quotes from previous Religious Traditions, it is because He wants to make a point, and teach more, based on what people of His time were familiar with. The idea that Noah lived for 950 years, in Bahai View is not false, but it is a spiritual reality, expressed by symbolism, and it is a reference to a Period that the teachings of Noah was alive and inspiring people. In another words, it has a figurative meaning.....
As regards to Bahaullah learning Arabic, again, according to history, He knew Arabic well, but not through learning. If you say He had Training, or somehow He learned it by reading, or whatever way, you are to provide for evidence.
So, for example, if you say, you have not done something, but i claim you have done, I must prove it. You do not have to prove you have not done. In another words, the burden of proof is on the person who claims Bahaullah had Trainings in Arabic. Bahaullah says, He did not have trainings, and His knowledge is through divine knowledge, so, if you say, His knowledge of Arabic is not through divine knowledge and He studied it, then the burden of proof is on you. You cannot say, just because you cannot believe Bahaullah could possibly be truely Manifestation of God, then He must have been lying... that would be unfair. Specially when Bahaullah said to King, ask the City, meaning ask everyone, and investigate about Me. So, Bahaullah had also a half brother, who was very jealous of Bahaullah. Even His half brother, who knew Bahaullah from childhood, never showed any evidence to disprove the claim of Bahaullah with this regard, eventhough His half brother was constently showing animosity toward Him.
I think if you want to look at historical accounts on how Bahaullah was writing, there is a 4 Volume book, called,'the Revelation of Bahaullah'.
The Covenant Library
And i think this chapter is a good place to look first:
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 1, Chapter 3
Last edited:
If that were true, there would be no reason to constantly and repeatedly offer quotes from your prophet, invite us to a Bahai house or worship, etc. So in theory, sure it's about humanity, but in practice, it's about Bahai. And that is the conundrum in much of this thread ... saying one thing, and acting it out differently, thereby offering contradictory messaging.
Gee, I wonder what Baha'u'llah had to say about that.
I'm including Bahai. Are you?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Because Bahai Faith is an instrument to serve humanity, in a sense that, it teaches, we are here to serve. The definition that Bahaullah gives for being human is, 'a person who serves others, and lives to serve.'
"We further admonish you to serve all nations and to strive for the betterment of the world.
That which is conducive to the regeneration of the world and the salvation of the peoples and kindreds of the earth hath been sent down from the heaven of the utterance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. Give ye a hearing ear to the counsels of the Pen of Glory. Better is this for you than all that is on the earth. Unto this beareth witness My glorious and wondrous Book."
- Bahaullah
"In brief, what is right and true in this day and acceptable before His Throne is that which was mentioned at the outset. All men have been called into being for the betterment of the world. It behoveth every soul to arise and serve his brethren for the sake of God. Should a brother of his embrace the truth, he should rejoice that the latter hath attained unto everlasting favour. Otherwise he should implore God to guide him without manifesting the least trace of animosity or ill-feeling towards him. The reins of command are in the grasp of God. He doeth what He willeth and ordaineth as He pleaseth. He, verily, is the Almighty, the All-Praised."
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Tabernacle of Unity, Pages 15-55
Last edited:
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I think there are many things that creates 'us' vs 'them'. race, natinality, religions, sects.... Because different group of people exist. This is diversity though. The problem rises, not because there is diversity, but whenever, there is a temptation to say 'we are better than them'., and when there is bias against other groups.
You proved my point, friend. Thanks.
Indeed. And the idea of 'progressive manifestations' fits right into this line of thinking. Each so called manifestation is better than the last, and Baha'u'llah is the superiour one, hence making the Bahais the best people on the planet, no?
Last edited:
siti
Well-Known Member
Where does Baha'u'llah say this?
No, I don't think so - the burden of proof, in philosophical discourse, is on the one making the more extraordinary claim. There is clear evidence - in the writings themselves - that Baha'u'llah was well-versed in both religion and Arabic. The default explanation would be that he learned this. It is incumbent on anyone making the claim that he knew it despite not having learned it to provide evidence. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the default explanation remains the most likely. I have asked several times for evidence but so far you have given me links to the testimony of Baha'u'llah's family and close associates only. And none of them have actually attested - as far as I can see - to Baha'u'llah lacking education in these matters. For that we have only Baha'u'llah's own testimony and, even in his own writings, plenty of evidence to suggest that he both knew of and expected his readers to be familiar with books in Persian and Arabic detailing the scriptural traditions he was alluding to. You need not search very far for this - for example, in the very same passage of the Book of Certitude I referenced in regard to Noah, Baha'u'llah writes:
"...and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions..."
Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude, p 7-8
How did Baha'u'llah know this? I would suggest that the most likely explanation is that he "must certainly have perused...the records of the best known books". As I said, if you want to make a case against this, the "burden of proof" is really on you - you owe it to the integrity of this discussion and, I would respectfully suggest, to your own intellectual integrity, to find and examine the evidence impartially.
Last edited:
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
From a site about the "History of Prisons"
"The earliest records of prisons come from the 1st millennia BC, located on the areas of mighty ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt."
Do you have a quote from Baha'u'llah that explains why God ordained stoning?
arthra
Baha'i
Well they didn't have a prison library in the Siyyah Chal pit in Tehran or in the prison fortress of Akka... nor was Baha'u'llah in a theological school. There is a hint though about His early life written by His Son Abdul-Baha:
During the period of youth the Blessed Perfection did not enter school. He was not willing to be taught. This fact is well established among the Iranians of Tihran. Nevertheless He was capable of solving the difficult problems of all who came to Him. In whatever meeting, scientific assembly or theological discussion He was found, He became the authority of explanation upon intricate and abstruse questions presented.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 220)
Baha'u'llah has stated:
We have not entered any school, nor read any of your dissertations. Incline your ears to the words of this unlettered One, wherewith He summoneth you unto God, the Ever-Abiding. Better is this for you than all the treasures of the earth, could ye but comprehend it.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 199)
From His letter to Nasiridin Shah
The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list.
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 98)