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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes you are right. Our deeds must speak for us. It will take time and resources to translate the Baha'i Teachings into programs and services that will serve humanity as we are still in our 'formative age'.

But that is my point. Why can't your deeds just speak for themselves, period? Why does this "I'm a Bahai' thing have to be attached to all deeds? It's not about Bahai. It's about the deeds. Lots of other people from all other faiths perform great deeds, and don't feel any necessity to attach it to their faith.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes, Whatever He said, was divine Revelation, or in Bahai Terminology inner knowldge, which is independent on human learnings.

Somewhere I read a long time ago that about 1% of thought is original, and the other 99% is regurgitated or reformed words from the thoughts of others. I think it's probably much higher for the regurgitated. So every individual is capable of original thought. Some are more capable than others, yes. This is why scripture based religions have people who constantly quote someone else, usually their 'book'.

My point here is that Baha'u'llah wouldn't have been unique at all in his 'divine' revelations. Yes, some people see them as 'divine' whereas others would just see them as creative and original.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
But that is my point. Why can't your deeds just speak for themselves, period? Why does this "I'm a Bahai' thing have to be attached to all deeds? It's not about Bahai. It's about the deeds. Lots of other people from all other faiths perform great deeds, and don't feel any necessity to attach it to their faith.

Because we believe that the world can only be transformed spiritually by the Word of God.

All the wealth and power and goodwill in the world still cannot even bring about a political peace, so the spiritualisation of the world, of hearts and minds is not going to happen through any earthly agency.

Only the Word of God can claim the distinction of effecting such a transformation.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hmmm? Wandered in the desert for 40 years, then God told them to invade the Promised Land and in some cities kill even the women and children. There after they lived in villages and cities, yet God's law said to stone people for certain offenses. Maybe it was a symbolic stoning?

They were constantly attacked by the Amalekites over generations. This battle was as a result of constant attacks on th Jews.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
This is just not true.





I think, It is good that you look into those details.
Now, to analyze those quotes that you provided, and make a fair conclusion, first I think we need to know a little more about the cultural and religious background of 19th Century Persia, as well as the idea of Manifestations or Messengers of God, as Bahai Scriptures teaches.

In Persia, most Muslims believe that the Messengers are given Knowledge, only once their mission begins. In another words, generally, they do not believe that Muhammad knew He was a Messenger of God, or had knowledge of Quran, prior to beginning His mission.
In Bahai Scriptures though, it teach that, the Manifestations are aware of this, and know all things, from when they are born, however, They do not declare Their Mission or station, until the appointed 'Hour'. For Bahaullah, the Declaration of His mission was not until year 1863.

Thus, anytime prior to this date, Bahaullah did not reveal His station to people, and that He acted as an ordinary Person.

It is obvious then, when Bahaullah was a child, His parents did not know He is a Manifestation, and that He does not require education, thus, just as it was custom, they provided some elementary education, which included basic reading, poetry, basic reading of Quran, Calligraphy, as well as swordsmanship and horsemanship, as these things were what the Noble class taught to their Children.

The Book of Certitude was also written by Bahaullah, about a year or two, prior to declaration of His station and mission, thus, He is not speaking in it explicitly as a Manifestation of God, but rather as an ordinary person.

Even after Bahaullah declared His mission, He still presented Himself, compatible with the level of understanding of people of His time. For example, Bahaullah wrote to the King in this manner:

“I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. “
Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 25-26

It is obvious that, this statement of Bahaullah appear to be contradictory, to the belief that Manifestations are not a man like others, but They know all things from childhood. But still Bahaullah speaks to the king according to the level of the understanding of the people of the time. It is like when a wise adult speaks with a child, He would speak in a way that the mind of the child could still accept, and not according to absolute Truth. As the King was a Muslim and believed Messengers have no prior knowledge of their Revelation, Bahaullah also presented Himself in that Manner. However for Bahais, Abdulbaha explained that verse:

"We come to the explanation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh when He says: “O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.”[72] This is the station of divine revelation. It is not a sensible, but an intelligible reality. It is sanctified from and transcendent above past, present, and future. It is a comparison and an analogy—a metaphor and not a literal truth. It is not the condition that is commonly understood by the human mind when it is said that someone was asleep and then awoke, but signifies a passage from one state to another. For example, sleeping is the state of repose, and wakefulness is the state of motion. Sleeping is the state of silence, and wakefulness is the state of utterance. Sleeping is the state of concealment, and wakefulness is that of manifestation.
For example, in Persian and Arabic it is said that the earth was asleep, spring came, and it awoke;
or that the earth was dead, spring came, and it found life again. These expressions are comparisons, analogies, similes, and figurative interpretations in the realm of inner meaning.
Briefly, the Manifestations of God have ever been and will ever be luminous Realities, and no change or alteration ever takes place in Their essence. At most, before Their revelation They are still and silent, like one who is asleep, and after Their revelation They are eloquent and effulgent, like one who is awake."


Baha'u'llah also referred to (I mean read) books in order to answer questions as he (Baha'u'llah) himself admits in the Book of Certitude (page 184)

"For instance, a certain man, reputed for his learning and attainments, and accounting himself as one of the pre-eminent leaders of his people, hath in his book denounced and vilified all the exponents of true learning. This is made abundantly clear by his explicit statements as well as by his allusions throughout his book. As We had frequently heard about him, We purposed to read some of his works. Although We never felt disposed to peruse other peoples’ writings, yet as some had questioned Us concerning him, We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding. His works, in the Arabic tongue, were, however, not available, until one day a certain man informed Us that one of his compositions, entitled Irshadu’l-‘Avám, could be found in this city. From this title We perceived the odour of conceit and vainglory, inasmuch as he hath imagined himself a learned man and regarded the rest of the people ignorant."

Does it not seem odd that having granted Baha'u'llah divine insight into the entire wealth of Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, Buddhist and Hindu scripture and tradition, He was suddenly either unable or unwilling to directly reveal the contents of a direct attack on the "exponents of true learning" and this divine Manifestation had to resort to looking it up in a document written in a language he had never studied???!!! (NB - the last sentence in that quote directly from Baha'u'llah is priceless in my opinion - I can't help thinking of kettles, pots and the colour black for some reason).

Now with the aforementioned let's look at the Quote from Iqan. Bahaullah speaking as an ordinary person who still does not want to reveal His station, is narrating that, someone came to Him and asked Him about somethings that were written in a book, and that book was not still available in the city. It is obvious that, Bahaullah cannot give answer to the Questioner about what is written in the book, before the book is available. Perhaps the Questioner would ask Bahaullah, how would He knew what was in the book when the book is still not available? Thus Bahaullah, had to appear as an ordinary person, who reads a book after it is available. What is noteworthy, is, Bahaullah does not actually say, He read the book for 2 days. He says that, He 'kept' it for two days. It seems Bahaullah outwardly is acting as an ordinary person who reads the book to give a knowledgeable answer to the Questioner.


For example Baha'u'llah's own (older) sister (who would have known him as well as anyone) wrote (in a letter to Abdu'l Baha titled Tanbih al-Na’imin):

"He [Baha'u'llah] wouldn’t disengage from learning the rudiments for a moment. After studying the rudiments of Arabic and literature he inclined towards the science of philosophy (hikmat) and mysticism (irfan) so that he might benefit from these. It was such that he would spend most of the day and night socializing with high statured philosophers and the gatherings of mystics and Sufis... he (meaning Bahaullah) was a man who had seen most of the words and phrases of the mystics and philosophers and had heard and understood most of the signs of the appearance (of the Mahdi) . . . after returning from Badasht and after the Shaykh Tabarsi Fort war was over, he was engaged day and night in socializing with great Islamic scholars and followers of mysticism..."
As regards to the letter written by the half sister of Bahaullah, we know that this half sister had become Azali, which was another group lead by Yahya Azal, who showed animosity toward Bahaullah. In this letter she is trying to refute Bahaullah. But even if we assume, what she says in the letter is true, there is nothing in the letter, suggesting Bahaullah was learning a great deal. She is only referring to elementary education that Bahaullah would have recieved as a child. What is extraordinary about Bahaullah, is, as a child He was the one who explained things to scholars, rather than He learns from them. For example this is an example:


"Baha'u'llah had already, prior to the declaration of the Bab, visited the district of Nur, at a time when the celebrated mujtahid Mirza Muhammad Taqiy-i-Nuri was at the height of his authority and influence. Such was the eminence of his position, that they who sat at his feet regarded themselves each as the authorised exponent of the Faith and Law of Islam. The mujtahid was addressing a company of over two hundred of such disciples, and was expatiating upon a dark passage of the reported utterances of the imams, when Baha'u'llah, followed by a number of His companions, passed by that place, and paused for a while to listen to his discourse. The mujtahid asked his disciples to elucidate an abstruse theory relating to the metaphysical aspects of the Islamic teachings. As they all confessed their inability to explain it, Baha'u'llah was moved to give, in brief but convincing language, a lucid exposition of that theory. The mujtahid was greatly annoyed at the incompetence of his disciples. "For years I have been instructing you," he angrily exclaimed, "and have patiently striven to instil into your minds the profoundest truths and the noblest principles of the Faith. And yet you allow, after all these years of persistent study, this youth, a wearer of the kulah,(1) who has had no share in scholarly training, and who is entirely unfamiliar with your academic learning, to demonstrate his superiority over you! "

The DAWN-BREAKERS---Chapter V


And finally, here's a quote from a Baha'i library source from an article written about Baha'u'llah's 2-year reclusion in Kurdistan during which he renewed his propensity for religious dialogue with the Sufis.

......

I think I'll probably leave this particular aspect there for now - unless you can give some references or evidence that actually shows that Baha'u'llah lacked religious and linguistic knowledge gained from learning.

As I am also originally from Persia, when I was going to school, I and other Iranians also took many courses in Persian Poetry, Arabic, Quran and Islamic studies up till grade 12. No body would have become a religious scholar or expert in Quran or fluent in Arabic, or be able to remember all Traditions and verses word for word after all, as those give only very basic knowledge. That is why in Persia, there are special schools for Religious studies.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
All the peoples of the world.

If christ was the only person to create peace and no other person Bahaullah included (thereby his writing and prophecy of him existing does not exist in christian view) and we arrived at world peace, would your following the Bahai faith be important enough to seek world peace only through the words of Bahaullah, or does it matter who you follow (Pagan included) as long as world peace is achieved?

If world peace can be achieved by anyone-nonrevealed religions included-then why pick a specific religion that focus on world peace through one medium when you can work together and find mediums beyond revealed religions but through all humanity not a selective few?

(Remember. They don't have to connect to each other by prophecy and being prophets [and they don't] to come to world peace. That's just a belief not a fact).
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
If christ was the only person to create peace and no other person Bahaullah included (thereby his writing and prophecy of him existing does not exist in christian view) and we arrived at world peace, would your following the Bahai faith be important enough to seek world peace only through the words of Bahaullah, or does it matter who you follow (Pagan included) as long as world peace is achieved?

If world peace can be achieved by anyone-nonrevealed religions included-then why pick a specific religion that focus on world peace through one medium when you can work together and find mediums beyond revealed religions but through all humanity not a selective few?

(Remember. They don't have to connect to each other by prophecy and being prophets [and they don't] to come to world peace. That's just a belief not a fact).

I think what Abdulbaha wrote, is relevant:

"In the beginning, this tree was full of vitality and laden with blossoms and fruit, but gradually it grew old, spent, and barren, until it entirely withered and decayed. That is why the True Gardener will again plant a tender sapling of the same stock, that it may grow and develop day by day, extend its sheltering shade in this heavenly garden, and yield its prized fruit. So it is with the divine religions: With the passage of time, their original precepts are altered, their underlying truth entirely vanishes, their spirit departs, doctrinal innovations spring up, and they become a body without a soul. That is why they are renewed.
Our meaning is that the followers of Buddha and Confucius now worship images and statues and have become entirely unaware of the oneness of God, believing instead in imaginary gods, as did the ancient Greeks. But such were not their original precepts; indeed, their original precepts and conduct were entirely different.
Again, consider to what an extent the original precepts of the Christian religion have been
forgotten and how many doctrinal innovations have sprung up. For example, Christ forbade violence and revenge and enjoined instead that evil and injury be met with benevolence and loving-kindness. But observe how many bloody wars have taken place among the Christian nations themselves and how much oppression, cruelty, rapacity, and bloodthirstiness have resulted therefrom! Indeed, many of these wars were carried out at the behest of the popes. It is therefore abundantly clear that, with the passage of time, religions are entirely changed and altered, and hence they are renewed."

Now for example, compare what Abdulbaha wrote, with what Buddha or Krishna had said:

"I am not the first Buddha to come upon earth; nor shall I be the last. In due time, another Buddha will arise in this world, a Holy One, a Supremely Enlightened One, endowed with wisdom, in conduct auspicious, knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a master of devas and men. He will reveal to you the same Eternal Truths which I have taught you. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure; such as I now proclaim.' - Buddha


  • Bhagavad-gita, 4.7: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata (Arjuna), and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." Krishna
As we see, they had said, the Truth or Religion They revealed would decline, and that is the reason they would appear again and again in different times and places. In Bahai View, this is why there are so many different Religions appeared in different times and places. However, God reveals Religion compatible with the Age and culture of the place it is revealed in. This is a reason also, for some outward differences. But in essence they all teach the same Truth, unless as Buddha and Krishna said, that Truth would disappear and decline. But if they would not decline or disappear, there was no need for another Revelation of Religion.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
  • Bhagavad-gita, 4.7: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata (Arjuna), and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." Krishna

As far as I know, this is the only verse out of a tremendously vast body of scripture in Hinduism that the Bahai know. Certainly its the one that gets quoted all the time. Why? Because it can be interpreted to support the Bahai view. That's obvious.

The more I read this thread, the more I see Abrahamic exclusivism.

I so want to know what people think, not what Baha'u'llah thought. That much is clear. It's like he waves his magic wand and spoketh, "Just so long as you quote me, all will be fine, and thou shalt be answerable to no one."

Sorry guys, that's just too simplistic.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I think what Abdulbaha wrote, is relevant:

"In the beginning, this tree was full of vitality and laden with blossoms and fruit, but gradually it grew old, spent, and barren, until it entirely withered and decayed. That is why the True Gardener will again plant a tender sapling of the same stock, that it may grow and develop day by day, extend its sheltering shade in this heavenly garden, and yield its prized fruit. So it is with the divine religions: With the passage of time, their original precepts are altered, their underlying truth entirely vanishes, their spirit departs, doctrinal innovations spring up, and they become a body without a soul. That is why they are renewed.
Our meaning is that the followers of Buddha and Confucius now worship images and statues and have become entirely unaware of the oneness of God, believing instead in imaginary gods, as did the ancient Greeks. But such were not their original precepts; indeed, their original precepts and conduct were entirely different.
Again, consider to what an extent the original precepts of the Christian religion have been
forgotten and how many doctrinal innovations have sprung up. For example, Christ forbade violence and revenge and enjoined instead that evil and injury be met with benevolence and loving-kindness. But observe how many bloody wars have taken place among the Christian nations themselves and how much oppression, cruelty, rapacity, and bloodthirstiness have resulted therefrom! Indeed, many of these wars were carried out at the behest of the popes. It is therefore abundantly clear that, with the passage of time, religions are entirely changed and altered, and hence they are renewed."

Now for example, compare what Abdulbaha wrote, with what Buddha or Krishna had said:

"I am not the first Buddha to come upon earth; nor shall I be the last. In due time, another Buddha will arise in this world, a Holy One, a Supremely Enlightened One, endowed with wisdom, in conduct auspicious, knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a master of devas and men. He will reveal to you the same Eternal Truths which I have taught you. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure; such as I now proclaim.' - Buddha


  • Bhagavad-gita, 4.7: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata (Arjuna), and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself." Krishna
As we see, they had said, the Truth or Religion They revealed would decline, and that is the reason they would appear again and again in different times and places. In Bahai View, this is why there are so many different Religions appeared in different times and places. However, God reveals Religion compatible with the Age and culture of the place it is revealed in. This is a reason also, for some outward differences. But in essence they all teach the same Truth, unless as Buddha and Krishna said, that Truth would disappear and decline. But if they would not decline or disappear, there was no need for another Revelation of Religion.

I will go back as I'm doing my final exam. You didn't answer the question just explained again about prophecies, how they relate, and trying to prove The Buddha and for some odd and funny reason Hinduism has anything to do with the prochecy of Bahaullah. I do not agree with this from a Buddhit and Christian perspective. You have HIndu telling you this is false as well. So..

My question is, if christs and christ only not Bahaullah as he is not a prophet promised in the christian (nor Buddhist and Hindu faiths) arived at world peace, would you still follow the teachings of Bahaullah or would you follow christ only?

Would arriving at world peace only through christ change your religion as a Bahai to a christian or does it matter as long as world peace is achieved?

That, and if it's the latter, why go through the effort of telling us the prophecies when if any religion yes, any religion, comes to world peace regardless what religion you are a part of, it should matter, right?

You can drop your religion as long as there is world peace?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You can drop your religion as long as there is world peace?

Nobody here is going to live to see world peace. At least I (the soul 'I'', not this individul ego/I) might, as I believe I'll come back. (Boss and I were joking about it today in a clothong store, picking out baby clothes for next time around.)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Nobody here is going to live to see world peace. At least I (the soul 'I'', not this individul ego/I) might, as I believe I'll come back. (Boss and I were joking about it today in a clothong store, picking out baby clothes for next time around.)

Aaww. That's cute. You know, my brother seriously (and my mother believes this.) that was reincarnated. I can't remember who he said he was in his previous life but it was interesting. We are like twins in many ways. Others would think him very odd.

I actually feel it's unrealistic to expect world peace. I like your view of mutual respect. So far Christ hasn't returned, 2000 came and no one experienced the armageddon (unless they watched the movie), so a lot of beliefs I feel it helps the soul live for today. I don't understand the motivation of wanting world peace because I agree with The Buddha that end of suffering is understanding the nature of it to actually die and end rebirth. His disciples kept asking if he was coming back, and he said he has always been here through the Dharma (I know. I said it off translation).

Did ya'll get the baby clothes?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Aaww. That's cute. You know, my brother seriously (and my mother believes this.) that was reincarnated. I can't remember who he said he was in his previous life but it was interesting. We are like twins in many ways. Others would think him very odd.

I actually feel it's unrealistic to expect world peace. I like your view of mutual respect. So far Christ hasn't returned, 2000 came and no one experienced the armageddon (unless they watched the movie), so a lot of beliefs I feel it helps the soul live for today. I don't understand the motivation of wanting world peace because I agree with The Buddha that end of suffering is understanding the nature of it to actually die and end rebirth. His disciples kept asking if he was coming back, and he said he has always been here through the Dharma (I know. I said it off translation).

Did ya'll get the baby clothes?

Yes, I believe that world peace isn't in the cards. It's some dream, impossible utopian idea, like everlasting youth with 67 dancing virgins, and 37 buckets full of testosterone. It's a daydream, and will never be fulfilled.

God emanated all of it. All of it. Suffering IS part of the plan. Individuals, one by one, overcome it, through sadhana, overcoming their personal bondage and limiting veils of ignorance. It all happens individually, like raindrops from the cloud. At any point in time, which at the deepest level, is also an illusion, there are various worlds, areas of consciousness, etc. all going on simultaneously. The 4 great yugas (time spans) in Hinduism are happening simultaneously. Certain people may be living in one, whilst others are living in others. So yes, utopia exists for the individual

As for the clothing, we pondered on just who we could give it to, or who could store it for us. That is becoming a major question as this particular physical body ages ... where should one be reborn to most likely re-encounter the dharmic ways so familiar this time around?

But the answer from the depths is always the same ... what is meant to be is meant to be. It is all as it should be. Nothing is wrong with this perfect universe.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
What do you mean by 'it'? I don't understand. What bows out?

Each Revelation has its purpose and time, after which it is superceeded by a subsequent Revelation from God. Once the Baha'i Revelation has outlived its usefulness, it will be replaced by a newer more relevant teaching in the future.

We believe religious truth is relative not absolute.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Each Revelation has its purpose and time, after which it is superceeded by a subsequent Revelation from God. Once the Baha'i Revelation has outlived its usefulness, it will be replaced by a newer more relevant teaching in the future.

We believe religious truth is relative not absolute.
So 'it' means a revelation. Any revelation, or a particular one? Which revelation does 'it' mean? As I understand it, according to any Abrahamic religion, or subsect, there are many revelations.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If christ was the only person to create peace and no other person Bahaullah included (thereby his writing and prophecy of him existing does not exist in christian view) and we arrived at world peace, would your following the Bahai faith be important enough to seek world peace only through the words of Bahaullah, or does it matter who you follow (Pagan included) as long as world peace is achieved?

If world peace can be achieved by anyone-nonrevealed religions included-then why pick a specific religion that focus on world peace through one medium when you can work together and find mediums beyond revealed religions but through all humanity not a selective few?

(Remember. They don't have to connect to each other by prophecy and being prophets [and they don't] to come to world peace. That's just a belief not a fact).

You are speaking hypothetically but in reality no one has yet established peace so someone has to try something new. As you know, the world's religions have all been around for thousands of years and yet world peace has eluded them all.

Their purpose was not to establish peace which is why you won't find even one verse in the entire Bible or Quran mentioning it.

But in God's latest Revelation world peace is mentioned thousands of times with instructions on how to establish and maintain it.

So when all else has failed why shouldn't we turn to Baha'u'llah?
 
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