How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

In another thread it says he often quoted from the Quran. So he just quoted, without reading, or studying at all?

 

[CG Didymus]

From Siti's post:

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted..."

Your response:

As you know, what Bahaullah taught was, in Holy Books, there are many symbolic and figurative verses. He taught , there are verses, that are spiritual Reality, not literal fact. So, when Bahaullah quotes from previous Religious Traditions, it is because He wants to make a point, and teach more, based on what people of His time were familiar with. The idea that Noah lived for 950 years, in Bahai View is not false, but it is a spiritual reality, expressed by symbolism, and it is a reference to a Period that the teachings of Noah was alive and inspiring people. In another words, it has a figurative meaning.....

You got a lot explaining to do. Genesis 9:28 After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29 Noah lived a total of 950 years, and then he died. Everybody lived several hundred years in Genesis. Are they all a "spiritual" reality?

But I'm confused. The flood to you is symbolic right? So it didn't really happen, right? Then if Noah had a "normal" lifespan, but his teachings inspired people for 950 years? But who ever heard of Noah until Moses, allegedly, wrote Genesis?

Another problem, for many religious people, Noah is still an inspiration. They even talk about the "Noahide" laws. So hold old does that make Noah now? Spiritually speaking of course.

Oh and Siti, thanks for your great questions and knowledge of this topic.

 

[sayak83]

In another thread it says he often quoted from the Quran. So he just quoted, without reading, or studying at all?

I mean Kabir can do the same thing. There is a difference between how mystics write and how a scholarly exegesis works. I find it very unlikely that Ottoman prisoners, especially a person of some influence cannot get access to Quran and Bible. I would be impressed if he did an exegesis of the SivaSutra or the 5 classics or Rig Veda. That he did not read the Quran in not believable.

 

[siti]

I have asked several times for evidence but so far you have given me links to the testimony of Baha'u'llah's family and close associates only. And none of them have actually attested - as far as I can see - to Baha'u'llah lacking education in these matters. For that we have only Baha'u'llah's own testimony

Well they didn't have a prison library in the Siyyah Chal pit in Tehran or in the prison fortress of Akka... nor was Baha'u'llah in a theological school. There is a hint though about His early life written by His Son Abdul-Baha:

During the period of youth the Blessed Perfection did not enter school. He was not willing to be taught. This fact is well established among the Iranians of Tihran. Nevertheless He was capable of solving the difficult problems of all who came to Him. In whatever meeting, scientific assembly or theological discussion He was found, He became the authority of explanation upon intricate and abstruse questions presented.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 220)

Baha'u'llah has stated:

We have not entered any school, nor read any of your dissertations. Incline your ears to the words of this unlettered One, wherewith He summoneth you unto God, the Ever-Abiding. Better is this for you than all the treasures of the earth, could ye but comprehend it.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 199)

From His letter to Nasiridin Shah

The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list.

(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 98)

I rest my case.

 

[Vinayaka]

I mean Kabir can do the same thing. There is a difference between how mystics write and how a scholarly exegesis works. I find it very unlikely that Ottoman prisoners, especially a person of some influence cannot get access to Quran and Bible. I would be impressed if he did an exegesis of the SivaSutra or the 5 classics or Rig Veda. That he did not read the Quran in not believable.

I agree. Lots of mystics wrote, or were divinely inspired, but in their own words, often expressing similar meanings as to previous stuff. This was the first time I'd ever heard of mystically 'quoting' previous scripture.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In another thread it says he often quoted from the Quran. So he just quoted, without reading, or studying at all?

Yes, Whatever He said, was divine Revelation, or in Bahai Terminology inner knowldge, which is independent on human learnings.

The fact is, the knowledge that Bahaullah had, even if one imagines, He studied to learn, it would require decades of studying. How is it that, even though there is so much written History about early years of Bahaullah's Revelations, and there wss so many people around Him, there is not found at any time, any evidence that, Bahaullah attended school, or anyone seeing Him, while studying either alone or with someone? And though He boldly proclaimed several times that He has divine Knowledge, and did not gain His knowledge through human learning, everyone is His time accepted thi as No body came forth, saying I have seen Bahaullah studying or going to school. In fact Bahaullah was in prison and excile for 40 years. He did not carry books with Him to learn from. This is a well-establish in Bahai history.

 

[sayak83]

Well they didn't have a prison library in the Siyyah Chal pit in Tehran or in the prison fortress of Akka... nor was Baha'u'llah in a theological school. There is a hint though about His early life written by His Son Abdul-Baha:

During the period of youth the Blessed Perfection did not enter school. He was not willing to be taught. This fact is well established among the Iranians of Tihran. Nevertheless He was capable of solving the difficult problems of all who came to Him. In whatever meeting, scientific assembly or theological discussion He was found, He became the authority of explanation upon intricate and abstruse questions presented.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 220)

Baha'u'llah has stated:

We have not entered any school, nor read any of your dissertations. Incline your ears to the words of this unlettered One, wherewith He summoneth you unto God, the Ever-Abiding. Better is this for you than all the treasures of the earth, could ye but comprehend it.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 199)

From His letter to Nasiridin Shah

The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list.

(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 98)

This suggests that he had not attended any Islamic seminary. Needless to say one does not have to go to an Islamic seminary of the Safivid empire in order to read the Quran or the Bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where does Baha'u'llah say this?

In principle Bahaullah taught that many of the words of Prophets are not to be interpreted literally, in the Book of Certitude:

"None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favor with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended... "

And in another Tablet which was revealed with regards to interpretations of Quran, He wrote:

"Know that whoso clingeth to the outward sense of the words, leaving aside their esoteric significance, is simply ignorant...Only the one who intepreteth the verses esoterically while harmonizing this reading with the literal meaning can be said to be a complete scholar."

Commentary on the Surah of the Sun


So, according to Bahaullah, when literal meaning is false, it must be interpreted esoterically.

Bahaullah, appointed Abdulbaha, as the infallible interpreter of the verses of God. And Abdulbaha also often interpreted unrealistic verses symbolically. As regards to long Age of Prophets, for instance in Bible it talks about Two Witnesses, who prophesy for 1260 Days. Abdulabaha says, each prophetic day, is counted as a year, according to Bible, thus, these Witnesses, prophesy for 1260 years. Then He goes on, and explains, by 1260 years they prophecy, it is intended the duration of the Religion (not their actual life span). This concept would be equivalently applicable to the Noah or other unrealistic long living prophets.



“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth.”[25] By these two witnesses are intended Muḥammad the Messenger of God and ‘Alí the son of Abú Ṭálib. In the Qur’án it is said that God addressed Muḥammad, saying, “We made Thee a witness, a herald, and a warner”;[26] that is, We have established Thee as one Who bears witness, Who imparts the glad-tidings of that which is to come, and Who warns of the wrath of God. A “witness” means one by whose affirmation matters are ascertained. The commandments of these two witnesses were to be followed for 1,260 days, each day corresponding to a year. ".

- Abdulbaha

And also, similar idea is found in Islamic Traditions:

In the Book Rijal Alkeshi, it is recorded that Imam Reza said,
“…if God wanted to prolong the lifespan of anyone among mankind, due to the needs of the people, God would have prolonged the life of Muhammad, the Messenger of God".

کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت - رجال الکشی - الشیخ الطوسی


This Hadith has evidence from Quran, since according to verses of Quran, God did not give everlasting life to Prophets. And in verse 3:7, He says, some of its verses are symbolic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This suggests that he had not attended any Islamic seminary. Needless to say one does not have to go to an Islamic seminary of the Safivid empire in order to read the Quran or the Bible.

In fact, according to history, many did go, and that is how they became Religious scholars.

 

[sayak83]

In fact, according to history, many did go, and that is how they became Religious scholars.

Point is one does not have to go to an Islamic seminary school to read the Quran or the Bible and Torah. There is an ocean's worth of difference between Bahaiullah not having read those books and he not going to a religious seminary.

 

[loverofhumanity]

From a site about the "History of Prisons"

"The earliest records of prisons come from the 1st millennia BC, located on the areas of mighty ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt."

Do you have a quote from Baha'u'llah that explains why God ordained stoning?

As I said, in the desert where Moses and Muhammad appeared and had to travel, there weren't prisons. There was nowhere at that time wandering a desert for 40 years as in Moses case or in the deserts of Arabia to detain criminals thus a harsh penal code.

Thank you Abdul-Baha.......... This applies to Muhammad too..

According to the exigencies of the time, His Holiness Moses revealed ten laws for capital punishment. It was impossible at that time to protect the community and to preserve social security without these severe measures, for the children of Israel lived in the wilderness of Tah, where there were no established courts of justice and no penitentiaries.
(Baha'u'llah and the New Era)

“During the Mosaic period the hand of a person was cut off in punishment of a small theft; there was a law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”

Excerpt From: John E. Esslemont. “Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era.”

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm including Bahai. Are you?

That's for the world to judge but we haven't reached our goal yet or the golden age of our Faith so this tree still is to bring forth its fairest fruits before withering.

There will be another Manifestation after 1,000 years and by then we would be in decline but not before having rejuvenated civilisation spiritually and establish the Most Great Peace.

We are told that this is the 'Day that shall not be followed by Night' meaning that Divine Infallible guidance will always henceforth be available to humanity on this planet even after the Manifestation has passed away.

First there was the Bab, then Baha'u'llah, then Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and now until the next Manifestation, th a Universal House of Justice. So infallible guidance on some topics and subjects will be available until th next Manifestation appears and either makes changes or additions. It might be a woman Prophet and maybe interplanetary unity we don't know.

 

[siti]

How is it that, even though there is so much written History about early years of Bahaullah's Revelations, and there wss so many people around Him, there is not found at any time, any evidence that, Bahaullah attended school, or anyone seeing Him, while studying either alone or with someone? And though He boldly proclaimed several times that He has divine Knowledge, and did not gain His knowledge through human learning, everyone is His time accepted thi as No body came forth, saying I have seen Bahaullah studying or going to school.

This is just not true.

For example Baha'u'llah's own (older) sister (who would have known him as well as anyone) wrote (in a letter to Abdu'l Baha titled Tanbih al-Na’imin):

"He [Baha'u'llah] wouldn’t disengage from learning the rudiments for a moment. After studying the rudiments of Arabic and literature he inclined towards the science of philosophy (hikmat) and mysticism (irfan) so that he might benefit from these. It was such that he would spend most of the day and night socializing with high statured philosophers and the gatherings of mystics and Sufis... he (meaning Bahaullah) was a man who had seen most of the words and phrases of the mystics and philosophers and had heard and understood most of the signs of the appearance (of the Mahdi) . . . after returning from Badasht and after the Shaykh Tabarsi Fort war was over, he was engaged day and night in socializing with great Islamic scholars and followers of mysticism..."

Abdu'l Baha himself almost lets it slip in conversation with Baha'i "Hand of the Cause" John Esslemont:

"When He [Baha'u'llah] was only thirteen or fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the Ulama (leading mullas) and would explain intricate religious questions."
Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era: Chapter 3

That clearly shows that, in his youth, Baha'u'llah spent considerable time discussing religious matters with the "Ulama" - religious teachers. And this despite the fact that Abdu'l Baha himself makes a directly contradictory claim here:

"As all the people of Persia know, He had never studied in any school, nor had He associated with the ulamá or the men of learning...His companions and associates were Persians of the highest rank, but not learned men."
Some Answered Questions, Abdu'l Baha

Baha'u'llah also referred to (I mean read) books in order to answer questions as he (Baha'u'llah) himself admits in the Book of Certitude (page 184)

"For instance, a certain man, reputed for his learning and attainments, and accounting himself as one of the pre-eminent leaders of his people, hath in his book denounced and vilified all the exponents of true learning. This is made abundantly clear by his explicit statements as well as by his allusions throughout his book. As We had frequently heard about him, We purposed to read some of his works. Although We never felt disposed to peruse other peoples’ writings, yet as some had questioned Us concerning him, We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding. His works, in the Arabic tongue, were, however, not available, until one day a certain man informed Us that one of his compositions, entitled Irshadu’l-‘Avám, could be found in this city. From this title We perceived the odour of conceit and vainglory, inasmuch as he hath imagined himself a learned man and regarded the rest of the people ignorant."

Does it not seem odd that having granted Baha'u'llah divine insight into the entire wealth of Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, Buddhist and Hindu scripture and tradition, He was suddenly either unable or unwilling to directly reveal the contents of a direct attack on the "exponents of true learning" and this divine Manifestation had to resort to looking it up in a document written in a language he had never studied???!!! (NB - the last sentence in that quote directly from Baha'u'llah is priceless in my opinion - I can't help thinking of kettles, pots and the colour black for some reason).

And finally, here's a quote from a Baha'i library source from an article written about Baha'u'llah's 2-year reclusion in Kurdistan during which he renewed his propensity for religious dialogue with the Sufis.

"In this poem [Al- Qasidah-al-Warqa'iyyah], Bahá'u'lláh displays the ability to express Bábí theological beliefs in Sufi terminology. This is not surprising, however, in view of the fact that Sufi works were popular in Persia and, over the centuries, had left a lasting impact on the culture and literature of that country. Persians of nobility, such as Bahá'u'lláh, were raised on such Sufi classics as Rumi's Mathnawi and Attar's The Speech of the Bird (or Mantiqu't-Tayr). Moreover, Sufism had experienced a revival in 19th century Persia and was highly favored in the court circles which included the family of Bahá'u'lláh."

I think I'll probably leave this particular aspect there for now - unless you can give some references or evidence that actually shows that Baha'u'llah lacked religious and linguistic knowledge gained from learning.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If that were true, there would be no reason to constantly and repeatedly offer quotes from your prophet, invite us to a Bahai house or worship, etc. So in theory, sure it's about humanity, but in practice, it's about Bahai. And that is the conundrum in much of this thread ... saying one thing, and acting it out differently, thereby offering contradictory messaging.

Gee, I wonder what Baha'u'llah had to say about that.

Yes you are right. Our deeds must speak for us. It will take time and resources to translate the Baha'i Teachings into programs and services that will serve humanity as we are still in our 'formative age'.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The authorities are the criminals. Stoning is a crime against humanity. Unbelievably brutal. How can a mind even go there? But such is the brutality in that religion. Still Bahai honour and respect it?

Stoning was never mentioned in the Quran so my understanding is clerics and scholars introduced it for their own political reasons.

We don't support it or honor it. Baha'is would refuse to stone anyone and as you can see prefer imprisonment rather than violence.

It is better to be killed than to kill is a Baha'i teaching.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Its about humanity not us? If not us, who is the humanity made up of?

All the peoples of the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

See, when we talk about Religion, by its definition, it is not just a natural event. We cannot look at religion, and try to analyze it according to what happens in everyday life. What do I mean? I mean, Religions have a supper natural components into it, as that is what it teaches, and that is the power of inspiration. You asked me, who were those Jews or Christians who knew the correct interpretations of symbolic verses? Bahaullah says, when people clean their heart, it reflects the true knowledge. Indeed, this has been the final goal of every Religion that God revealed. To create people with pure hearts. And Bahaullah is a clear example of how a pure heart can reflect the true understanding that comes from divine inspiration. But ordinary people, like us, would get to that level of purity rarely. This is why, in previous Ages, there has been some believers who understood the True meaning of the Words of God, but they were not as many.
We cannot say, why only rare people had this ability, because they were the ones who tried to purify their heart. Everyone has the potential, so, it is up to us. But we are too concern with materialistic and worldly things. How can we say, we have purified our hearts, when we can lie sometimes, we are jealous, we have greed, we give too much importance to lust and we go after it... what Bahaullah wishes for everyone, to be able to go beyond animal nature of human, and achieve a higher spiritual station. One of the signs of truely being spiritual, is showing the signs of inspiration and true understanding.
But in our Age, many people know the symbolic meanings of the Words of God, and that is not just because they discovered it, but because, in this Age, Bahaullah revealed it, so now we know. You may wonder, why then Previous Manifestations did not reveal their true interpretations, and why it was left for Bahaullah? But that is a long discussion, which I prefer not to go in that direction here...

So Christians that believe a literal interpretation of the Bible don't have a pure heart? And those that took the Bible as symbolic have a pure heart? So today, a fundamental Christian doesn't have a pure heart, because they don't see the truth that the Bible is symbolic? So an atheist, might be closer to the truth than the Christian, since they don't take the Bible stories as literal?

So, please tell me, who were these enlightened pure of heart Christians that took it symbolic?

 

[CG Didymus]

As I said, in the desert where Moses and Muhammad appeared and had to travel, there weren't prisons. There was nowhere at that time wandering a desert for 40 years as in Moses case or in the deserts of Arabia to detain criminals thus a harsh penal code.

Thank you Abdul-Baha.......... This applies to Muhammad too..

According to the exigencies of the time, His Holiness Moses revealed ten laws for capital punishment. It was impossible at that time to protect the community and to preserve social security without these severe measures, for the children of Israel lived in the wilderness of Tah, where there were no established courts of justice and no penitentiaries.
(Baha'u'llah and the New Era)

“During the Mosaic period the hand of a person was cut off in punishment of a small theft; there was a law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”

Excerpt From: John E. Esslemont. “Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era.”

Hmmm? Wandered in the desert for 40 years, then God told them to invade the Promised Land and in some cities kill even the women and children. There after they lived in villages and cities, yet God's law said to stone people for certain offenses. Maybe it was a symbolic stoning?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is just not true.

For example Baha'u'llah's own (older) sister (who would have known him as well as anyone) wrote (in a letter to Abdu'l Baha titled Tanbih al-Na’imin):

"He [Baha'u'llah] wouldn’t disengage from learning the rudiments for a moment. After studying the rudiments of Arabic and literature he inclined towards the science of philosophy (hikmat) and mysticism (irfan) so that he might benefit from these. It was such that he would spend most of the day and night socializing with high statured philosophers and the gatherings of mystics and Sufis... he (meaning Bahaullah) was a man who had seen most of the words and phrases of the mystics and philosophers and had heard and understood most of the signs of the appearance (of the Mahdi) . . . after returning from Badasht and after the Shaykh Tabarsi Fort war was over, he was engaged day and night in socializing with great Islamic scholars and followers of mysticism..."

Abdu'l Baha himself almost lets it slip in conversation with Baha'i "Hand of the Cause" John Esslemont:

"When He [Baha'u'llah] was only thirteen or fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the Ulama (leading mullas) and would explain intricate religious questions."
Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era: Chapter 3

That clearly shows that, in his youth, Baha'u'llah spent considerable time discussing religious matters with the "Ulama" - religious teachers. And this despite the fact that Abdu'l Baha himself makes a directly contradictory claim here:

"As all the people of Persia know, He had never studied in any school, nor had He associated with the ulamá or the men of learning...His companions and associates were Persians of the highest rank, but not learned men."
Some Answered Questions, Abdu'l Baha

Baha'u'llah also referred to (I mean read) books in order to answer questions as he (Baha'u'llah) himself admits in the Book of Certitude (page 184)

"For instance, a certain man, reputed for his learning and attainments, and accounting himself as one of the pre-eminent leaders of his people, hath in his book denounced and vilified all the exponents of true learning. This is made abundantly clear by his explicit statements as well as by his allusions throughout his book. As We had frequently heard about him, We purposed to read some of his works. Although We never felt disposed to peruse other peoples’ writings, yet as some had questioned Us concerning him, We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding. His works, in the Arabic tongue, were, however, not available, until one day a certain man informed Us that one of his compositions, entitled Irshadu’l-‘Avám, could be found in this city. From this title We perceived the odour of conceit and vainglory, inasmuch as he hath imagined himself a learned man and regarded the rest of the people ignorant."

Does it not seem odd that having granted Baha'u'llah divine insight into the entire wealth of Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, Buddhist and Hindu scripture and tradition, He was suddenly either unable or unwilling to directly reveal the contents of a direct attack on the "exponents of true learning" and this divine Manifestation had to resort to looking it up in a document written in a language he had never studied???!!! (NB - the last sentence in that quote directly from Baha'u'llah is priceless in my opinion - I can't help thinking of kettles, pots and the colour black for some reason).

And finally, here's a quote from a Baha'i library source from an article written about Baha'u'llah's 2-year reclusion in Kurdistan during which he renewed his propensity for religious dialogue with the Sufis.

"In this poem [Al- Qasidah-al-Warqa'iyyah], Bahá'u'lláh displays the ability to express Bábí theological beliefs in Sufi terminology. This is not surprising, however, in view of the fact that Sufi works were popular in Persia and, over the centuries, had left a lasting impact on the culture and literature of that country. Persians of nobility, such as Bahá'u'lláh, were raised on such Sufi classics as Rumi's Mathnawi and Attar's The Speech of the Bird (or Mantiqu't-Tayr). Moreover, Sufism had experienced a revival in 19th century Persia and was highly favored in the court circles which included the family of Bahá'u'lláh."

I think I'll probably leave this particular aspect there for now - unless you can give some references or evidence that actually shows that Baha'u'llah lacked religious and linguistic knowledge gained from learning.

Since he hadn't "declared" himself to be the Promised One yet, I wonder if, as a child, he had to learn things the old fashioned way by reading and listening to teachers? Thanks again for your deep knowledge of Baha'i teachings that no one else would have revealed to us.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's for the world to judge but we haven't reached our goal yet or the golden age of our Faith so this tree still is to bring forth its fairest fruits before withering.

There will be another Manifestation after 1,000 years and by then we would be in decline but not before having rejuvenated civilisation spiritually and establish the Most Great Peace.

We are told that this is the 'Day that shall not be followed by Night' meaning that Divine Infallible guidance will always henceforth be available to humanity on this planet even after the Manifestation has passed away.

First there was the Bab, then Baha'u'llah, then Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and now until the next Manifestation, th a Universal House of Justice. So infallible guidance on some topics and subjects will be available until th next Manifestation appears and either makes changes or additions. It might be a woman Prophet and maybe interplanetary unity we don't know.

You didn't answer my question directly, but I think I know your answer. You exclude Bahai, correct?