How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Try looking at the Hindu situation in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Baha'i's certainly aren't the only people being persecuted by Islam. In many cases it was genocide, not just persecution. Are the Bahai's facing genocide?

In our early history, yes definitely genocide. Currently oppression but it could become genocide any time.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'u'llah us simply stating that there are truths that words cannot convey. But there is only one reality.

The sun is one but it's rays are many.

I remember saying the sun isnt s good example. There is only one sun rays included.

There are different parts of nature that make up the earth. Oxygen doesnt disapear just because it forms one earth. Grass does makes up the earth too. Differents make up a whole. The sources are the differences. The unity is what makes up those sources. Understand?

 

[sayak83]

I believe in diversity as you do and the freedom of everyone to choose their path without oppression.

The Baha'is of Iran do not enjoy this freedom so we want freedom to believe without fear of being oppressed.

Yes I understand that. What's different between us is that I consider the preservation and growth of such diversity as the path forward while you consider unification under Bahai as the path forward.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Try looking at the Hindu situation in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Baha'i's certainly aren't the only people being persecuted by Islam. In many cases it was genocide, not just persecution. Are the Bahai's facing genocide?

It really distresses me to see Hindus treated so cruelly. what do you do?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I remember saying the sun isnt s good example. Here is only one sun rays included.

There are different parts of nature that make up the earth. Oxygen doesnt disapear just because it forms one earth. Grass does makes up the earth too. Differents make up a whole. The sources are the differences. The unity is what makes up those sources. Understand?

I think the sun is a perfect. example of one reality but many truths.

I don't understand your analogy. Can you be more specific?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes I understand that. What's different between us is that I consider the preservation and growth of such diversity as the path forward while you consider unification under Bahai as the path forward.

To us unity in diversity are both important and required for humanity to move forward with or without Baha'is

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think the sun is a perfect. example of one reality but many truths.

I don't understand your analogy. Can you be more specific?

The sun doesn't make sense to me only because logically, the rays are part of the sun. I can see why you'd say the rays spring out from the sun but you are separating the rays from the sun as if they connect in one way but separate at the same time. It's one sun; so, it's an illusion that the rays are multiple. That's what our eyes make out of it in pattern; and, it's the same sun regardless.

The earth is made up of:

"Above the core is Earth's mantle, which is made up of rock containing silicon, iron, magnesium, aluminum, oxygen and other minerals. The rocky surface layer of Earth, called the crust, is made up of mostly oxygen,silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, sodium, potassium and magnesium."

Each of these makes up part of the earth. (They are their own truth; their own identity). When put together, they don't "disappear" to one earth. They, above, still exist. It's an illusion to think they are united as in they are each other. The make up of the earth is based on diversity put together. Not on unity spread a part. Each part does not have the same function. They do different things. It's an illusion to think they are the same because they work together.

It's also an illusion to think the rays are a part of the sun because they are connected. The rays are the sun.

The earth is built up on diversity. (I don't know what the sun is made up of at the moment). Once you understand the sources of life-the different truths-you don't see what they have in common but the truths (with an -s) of their differences. You can see how they work together and at the same time appreciate that just because they work together (just because Jesus referred to Moses) doesn't mean they teach the same thing (Moses taught to the Jews. Jesus sent the message to the gentiles as well as so the apostles wrote).

In the case of Bahaullah, he isn't a Jew and he isn't "saved". Christianity is a one-person faith. There are no rays coming from christianity. Just one chunk made up of nothing but one source. Bahaullah can try to see more than one source in it, but that's logically wrong. You can't make multiple things out of something that's made up of a single item. You can't make one if you're looking at two things. You can't find two things if you're looking at one.

It's fine to say they work together. That's an alright belief. The fact that they don't connect logically just means they share the same goal and on a surface level one aspect of the same god.

But Hinduism and Buddhism is not a part of this equation. That confuses me the most.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The sun doesn't make sense to me only because logically, the rays are part of the sun. I can see why you'd say the rays spring out from the sun but you are separating the rays from the sun as if they connect in one way but separate at the same time. It's one sun; so, it's an illusion that the rays are multiple. That's what our eyes make out of it in pattern; and, it's the same sun regardless.

The earth is made up of:

"Above the core is Earth's mantle, which is made up of rock containing silicon, iron, magnesium, aluminum, oxygen and other minerals. The rocky surface layer of Earth, called the crust, is made up of mostly oxygen,silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, sodium, potassium and magnesium."

Each of these makes up part of the earth. (They are their own truth; their own identity). When put together, they don't "disappear" to one earth. They, above, still exist. It's an illusion to think they are united as in they are each other. The make up of the earth is based on diversity put together. Not on unity spread a part. Each part does not have the same function. They do different things. It's an illusion to think they are the same because they work together.

It's also an illusion to think the rays are a part of the sun because they are connected. The rays are the sun.

The earth is built up on diversity. (I don't know what the sun is made up of at the moment). Once you understand the sources of life-the different truths-you don't see what they have in common but the truths (with an -s) of their differences. You can see how they work together and at the same time appreciate that just because they work together (just because Jesus referred to Moses) doesn't mean they teach the same thing (Moses taught to the Jews. Jesus sent the message to the gentiles as well as so the apostles wrote).

In the case of Bahaullah, he isn't a Jew and he isn't "saved". Christianity is a one-person faith. There are no rays coming from christianity. Just one chunk made up of nothing but one source. Bahaullah can try to see more than one source in it, but that's logically wrong. You can't make multiple things out of something that's made up of a single item. You can't make one if you're looking at two things. You can't find two things if you're looking at one.

It's fine to say they work together. That's an alright belief. The fact that they don't connect logically just means they share the same goal and on a surface level one aspect of the same god.

But Hinduism and Buddhism is not a part of this equation. That confuses me the most.

I still think the sun is one of new t examples because it shows that reality and emanation are two different things yet connected. But the human body is also an excellent example of unity in diversity and oneness.

The human body.

Although the human body is comprised of different organs with different functions and has much diversity, if the health of the individual is to be mainatained they must be united and work together or we will die.

Now, all the organs and nervous system and blood and brain belong to the one same reality, the one body not two bodies.

Now liken humanity to the human body and the various nations, religions and races as the organs, blood, nerves and brain and heart of that body. If one part of humanity or the human body becomes ill, it affects the rest of the body.

The world today is interconnected so what happens in one part of the world, its effects are felt elsewhere like in the human body.

And when that body becomes ill it needs a physician who understands the disease and will prescribe the correct remedy.

But today we see the body of humanity is being administered to by ignorant physicians who are only interested in personal desire and profit not the welfare of the patient.

I think it all depends on how you view humanity. Diversity is essential and there's no question about that but diversity that is in harmony and works together.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I still think the sun is one of new t examples because it shows that reality and emanation are two different things yet connected. But the human body is also an excellent example of unity in diversity and oneness.

The human body.

Although the human body is comprised of different organs with different functions and has much diversity, if the health of the individual is to be mainatained they must be united and work together or we will die.

Now, all the organs and nervous system and blood and brain belong to the one same reality, the one body not two bodies.

Now liken humanity to the human body and the various nations, religions and races as the organs, blood, nerves and brain and heart of that body. If one part of humanity or the human body becomes ill, it affects the rest of the body.

The world today is interconnected so what happens in one part of the world, its effects are felt elsewhere like in the human body.

And when that body becomes ill it needs a physician who understands the disease and will prescribe the correct remedy.

But today we see the body of humanity is being administered to by ignorant physicians who are only interested in personal desire and profit not the welfare of the patient.

I think it all depends on how you view humanity. Diversity is essential and there's no question about that but diversity that is in harmony and works together.

I agree diversity works together. What I'm saying is that just because they work together (just because the arm works with the shoulder that goes to the collar bone) doesn't mean they are each other. The human body is made up of parts not of a whole. A leg is not an arm and they have different functions/sources. It's an illusion to look at a human being and say they are one. It's interconnected because they work together. It's not interconnected because they have different sources/functions that make one part and arm and another a leg.

If you look at sources as differences, then it's easier to say "A Hindu believes his own truth as I believe in mine." When you see them as similarities, you say " hindu truth is connected to my truth and mine to his."

Then what that does is making a leg and arm when they have two separate sources and functions. In order to be unified, all parts have to agree with each other.

You're saying that Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism agrees with you, fine. They are religions of abraham.

Buddhism and Hinduism are not body parts. You're trying to put a part in that does not belong. That's the problem. I can debate all day that Christianity doesn't belong but you both believe in a creator so that debate is mute. Hindu create is not the god of abraham creator. Buddhism does not believe in a creator.

So you have to take these into consideration before making them a part of your whole. They are not. Practitioners are correcting you and telling you they are not. You are overriding them saying god knows more then they do. That insults the buddhist who does not believe in god. World peace incorporates all parts. You disregard Paganism which is a body part.

A lot of your religion is contradicting each other. It's confusing. But there it is. I have to go. That's my view of things.

 

[Vinayaka]

It really distresses me to see Hindus treated so cruelly. what do you do?

I recognise suffering as a fact of being born into this physical plane. The physical body experiences pain. Childbirth is painful, from what little I know.

As far as world situations goes or in the case of character development, I'm happy with the goal of improvement, and think that the idea of perfection in the external realms like politics is an unrealistic utopian daydream. So it bothers me, yet doesn't bother me because I see the big picture. It's easier for Hindus perhaps because we see life as an evolution of the soul, and because of our belief in reincarnation, we can practice forbearance and patience with relative ease.

Same with someone disagreeing with us ... we can just say that's fine, it's life, it's diversity. There is no real benefit to being distressed about something you have no control over anyway.

 

[Vinayaka]

But Hinduism and Buddhism is not a part of this equation. That confuses me the most.

The first sentence says it all. No reason to be confused. Only some persistent Bahais feel the need to add the dharmic faiths to their equation. Many others don't.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I agree diversity works together. What I'm saying is that just because they work together (just because the arm works with the shoulder that goes to the collar bone) doesn't mean they are each other. The human body is made up of parts not of a whole. A leg is not an arm and they have different functions/sources. It's an illusion to look at a human being and say they are one. It's interconnected because they work together. It's not interconnected because they have different sources/functions that make one part and arm and another a leg.

If you look at sources as differences, then it's easier to say "A Hindu believes his own truth as I believe in mine." When you see them as similarities, you say " hindu truth is connected to my truth and mine to his."

Then what that does is making a leg and arm when they have two separate sources and functions. In order to be unified, all parts have to agree with each other.

You're saying that Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism agrees with you, fine. They are religions of abraham.

Buddhism and Hinduism are not body parts. You're trying to put a part in that does not belong. That's the problem. I can debate all day that Christianity doesn't belong but you both believe in a creator so that debate is mute. Hindu create is not the god of abraham creator. Buddhism does not believe in a creator.

So you have to take these into consideration before making them a part of your whole. They are not. Practitioners are correcting you and telling you they are not. You are overriding them saying god knows more then they do. That insults the buddhist who does not believe in god. World peace incorporates all parts. You disregard Paganism which is a body part.

A lot of your religion is contradicting each other. It's confusing. But there it is. I have to go. That's my view of things.

I respect your views and I understand.

 

[Vinayaka]

To us unity in diversity are both important and required for humanity to move forward with or without Baha'is

The only requirement, in my opinion is mutual respect. Not the teachings necessarily, but just for the people. There is no need to think it terms of unity at all. It's a catch-all term that has been programmed over and over again into the Baha'i teachings. It usually comes up first in any site about Baha'i. It's a simplistic platitude that sounds nice on paper, but when anyone digs a little deeper, it simply doesn't work very well. Bahai's are not at all alone on this. Some branches of Hinduism, the ones that use Christian or Islamic quotes right along with their won scriptures, would agree with you. So would many universalist labelled teachings in any faith. I've even heard Baha'i's referred to as a universalist sect. Universalists are great in their general fondness for peace, but there is also a great intolerance built into it, an intolerance for those folks who feel a strong and narrow personal belief tradition works best for them personally. That's when you hear universalists calling out people like me for being narrow minded, when I say things like I don't believe in Christ.

But it's just two different approaches.

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand.

This phrase has been really troublesome for both Carlita and you. She has repeatedly asked you, "Do you understand?" And you have repeatedly said, "Yes, I understand."

It's a common communication problem. Beginning teachers make the same mistake repeatedly, but usually they learn too. They'll explain a concept, and than ask the student, "Do you understand?" The student, for several reasons will answer, 'Yes' often. It can be pride, the fear of embarrassment, or a host of other reasons like insecurity, avoidance etc. It is really unwise to ask a person whether or not they understand. It is equally unwise to say 'I understand' just like a 'hello' or a cordial greeting. It's much deeper than that.

So a wise teacher gives the students a quick test instead, then marks that test, and thereby comes to a quick assessment, and a much closer reality as to the actual answer to the question. I learned to do that, and to never trust the words, "I understand'.

Why do you think Carlita has asked you, 'Do you understand?" a few times. It is because she has discovered that you don't understand.

Through our rather lengthy discussion, I've come to believe the same about some things, but differently about others. For example, there is a huge difference between saying someone has a right to a belief, and then actually agreeing to that belief or understanding it.

On one level, I will never understand Bahai teachings. They simply make no sense to me, just like I will never understand calculus. That is not to say that on some intellectual level, I don't know what Bahai's believe. Of course I can understand that, because I can read English. So it's the difference between memorizing a mathematical formula like the Pythagorean Theory, or actually being able to prove it, to get it, etc.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The only requirement, in my opinion is mutual respect. Not not the teachings necessarily, but just for the people. There is no need to think it terms of unity at all. It's a catch-all term that has been programmed over and over again into the Baha'i teachings. It usually comes up first in any site about Baha'i. It's a simplistic platitude that sounds nice on paper, but when anyone digs a little deeper, it simply doesn't work very well. Bahai's are not at all alone on this. Some branches of Hinduism, the ones that use Christian or Islamic quotes right along with their won scriptures, would agree with you. So would many universalist labelled teachings in any faith. I've even heard Baha'i's referred to as a universalist sect. Universalists are great in their general fondness for peace, but there is also a great intolerance built into it, an intolerance for those folks who feel a strong and narrow personal belief tradition works best for them personally. That's when you hear universalists calling out people like me for being narrow minded, when I say things like I don't believe in Christ.

But it's just two different approaches.

I agree that it's all about mutual respect between all races, nations, religions and non religionists. Unity between all people is what is essential not that they must all join one religion.

We're more than happy with live and let live. What we are against is discrimination and prejudice between people which makes some think they have the right to harm or injure even kill another because of their race, religion or nationality.

We understand that diversity is meant to be a cause of beauty to the human race not a source of conflict.

By unity we mean getting along with all without prejudice or discrimination not that we all become the same.

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree that it's all about mutual respect between all races, nations, religions and non religionists. Unity between all people is what is essential not that they must all join one religion.

We're more than happy with live and let live. What we are against is discrimination and prejudice between people which makes some think they have the right to harm or injure even kill another because of their race, religion or nationality.

We understand that diversity is meant to be a cause of beauty to the human race not a source of conflict.

By unity we mean getting along with all without prejudice or discrimination not that we all become the same.

Then we don't need Baha'u'llah, right? If you actually and truly believe what you just wrote, there would absolutely be no need for Baha'u'llah. You could walk away from the Baha'i faith right at this very moment, no doubt about it. Why? Because that very same message is right there in other faiths too. Bahai's are not unique.

So which will it be?

 

[sayak83]

To us unity in diversity are both important and required for humanity to move forward with or without Baha'is

Whether or not unity in diversity is good or not depends on unity with respect to what and diversity with respect to what. What would your formulation be in this case?

 

[Vinayaka]

Whether or not unity in diversity is good or not depends on unity with respect to what and diversity with respect to what. What would your formulation be in this case?

Thanks for this. 'Unity' has yet to be defined in this discussion, as far as I know. Used a lot, but not defined. I'm curious as to the response. It may well be one of those catch-all terms like dharma, meditation, and karma are in Hinduism ... used a lot, but nobody really knows what they mean, or very differing understandings.

 

[sayak83]

Then we don't need Baha'u'llah, right? If you actually and truly believe what you just wrote, there would absolutely be no need for Baha'u'llah. You could walk away from the Baha'i faith right at this very moment, no doubt about it. Why? Because that very same message is right there in other faiths too. Bahai's are not unique.

So which will it be?

That is not quite fair. Even if one believes that the same message can be had from various sources (like a nutritious diet from any cultural cooking tradition) one source may still resonate with one more than others. The concern here is that Bahai do not actually believe it's the same message and consider Baha'u'llah's way to be more complete, perfect and relevant for all humans in this day and age, thus demanding a moral oughtness imperative in the sense that
"you should follow Bahai teachings if you want an authentic connection with spirit or God free from imperfections"
Rather than
"you could follow Bahai teachings if you want such an authentic connection, but other ways exist as well which work. "

The first is exclusive while the second is pluralistic and inclusive. Whatever one is, one should be clear. I feel that while Islam, Christianity are open about “should", the Bahai is saying "could" but then smuggling in the "should". It's a typical practice for minority religions as they are vulnerable to persecution and takes the accommodationist pose to blunt initial hostility. May be necessary in many places as well just to survive. But here in this forum, I would prefer the truth... please.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Then we don't need Baha'u'llah, right? If you actually and truly believe what you just wrote, there would absolutely be no need for Baha'u'llah. You could walk away from the Baha'i faith right at this very moment, no doubt about it. Why? Because that very same message is right there in other faiths too. Bahai's are not unique.

So which will it be?

If the world had all followed the path of ahimsa or love one another then there wouldn't be any need for a new religion.

But that hasn't been the case. So I personally believe that we do need Baha'u'llah as He has been able to bring together a community which is a cross section of humanity that basically doesn't have any of these conflicts between races, religions and nations that exist outside the Baha'i Communty. Anyone that can do that to me is as a Divine Physician.