How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

That's the purpose of consultation. We are consulting at all levels with all communities to assist humanity.

United Nations Offices

You gave two conflicting statements. You said Bahaullah wants to take out rituals, traditions, and dogma that causes wars and now you're saying you work with others.

Which is it?

 

[Vinayaka]

We work and consult with all communities. But the Baha'i System is only for Baha'is.

Not according to your long term goals, which include your House of Justice being the world's main spiritual guide. Of course that takes the one massive assumption that all people will, on their own volition, convert to Baha'i'. Until that happens, all peace loving faiths and sects have to work in a unity within diversity sort of way. Many of those interfaith groups only have certain groups represented.

 

[Vinayaka]

I considered what he said as a compliment.

Universal sects within Hinduism are similar to Baha'i' and Unitarian Universalism. They water things down to a level where there is little power behind anything. No ritual, temple isn't necessary, God is a 'maybe, so-so idea. You know the story really well.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You expressly said Bahaullah wants to take out rituals, traditions, and dogma to have world peace (or in his words have no wars)

Which is it? Do you work with people and believe them to build world peace or do you isolate yourselves from them "sine you believe X no matter what they believe" and just work together superficially to political world peace and not spiritual?

In our religion we follow Baha'u'llah's path. Meanwhile we work with everyone who seeks to create a better world.

Peace is a process not an event. It involves much more than handshakes and treaties. It involves things like the elimination of all forms of prejudice whether racial, religious or national, gender equality and the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty.

These are things the whole world must work together to solve.

Spiritual peace will take centuries and we don't know exactly what it will look like.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not according to your long term goals, which include your House of Justice being the world's main spiritual guide. Of course that takes the one massive assumption that all people will, on their own volition, convert to Baha'i'. Until that happens, all peace loving faiths and sects have to work in a unity within diversity sort of way. Many of those interfaith groups only have certain groups represented.

Its all up to humanity.

 

[Vinayaka]

In our religion we follow Baha'u'llah's path. Meanwhile we work with everyone who seeks to create a better world.

Peace is a process not an event. It involves much more than handshakes and treaties. It involves things like the elimination of all forms of prejudice whether racial, religious or national, gender equality and the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty.

These are things the whole world must work together to solve.

Spiritual peace will take centuries and we don't know exactly what it will look like.

We need to start with changing ourselves. For the Baha'i', if they want to be taken seriously, a good first step would be to allow women in the Baha'i House of Justice. That would indicate some seriousness in all this 'talk'.

Another step would be to radically undo statements like this:

"The inhabitants of a country life Africa are all as wandering savages and wild animals. They lack intelligence and knowledge; all are uncivilized; not one civilized and a wise man is not to be found among them. These are the proofs of the wise men. The prophets also acknowledge this opinion, towit: That education hath a great effect upon the human race, but they declare that minds and comprehensions are originally different. And this matter is self-evident; it cannot be refuted. We see that certain children of the same age, nativity and race, nay, from the same household, under the tutorship of one teacher, differ in their minds and conprehensions. One advanceth rapidly, another is slow in catching the rays of culture, still another remaineth in the lowest degree of stupidity. No matter how much the shell is educated (or polished), it can never become a radiant pearl. The black stone will not become the world-illumined gem." (Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Baha p.567 vv.3-4)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Universal sects within Hinduism are similar to Baha'i' and Unitarian Universalism. They water things down to a level where there is little power behind anything. No ritual, temple isn't necessary, God is a 'maybe, so-so idea. You know the story really well.

We don't want to lose culture, tradition and diversity on the one hand but allowing fanatics to declare others 'infidels' and use that to kill and destroy is the other extreme.

We seek a middle way where we can have unity in diversity only eliminating harmful things like holy wars, stoning, cutting off of hands etc. it's a balancing act but we ultimately want both unity and diversity but neither to such an extreme that they destroy culture or lead to loss of life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In our religion we follow Baha'u'llah's path. Meanwhile we work with everyone who seeks to create a better world.

Peace is a process not an event. It involves much more than handshakes and treaties. It involves things like the elimination of all forms of prejudice whether racial, religious or national, gender equality and the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty.

These are things the whole world must work together to solve.

Spiritual peace will take centuries and we don't know exactly what it will look like.

You do not need Bahaullah for this.

1. Bahaullah says: take out traditions, religion, and culture to releave wars. This isn't just for the Bahai faith (if so, it won't work) but for everyone.

THat is why it's world peace. You incorporate everyones views.

2. Then you said that you believe everyone is one family regardless of what others believe.

That is not world peace. That is actually being hypocritical. You're working with others but don't care what they believe in favor of your own.

That's like my working with you and you tell me, "hey, I don't mind working with you to build world peace, but, I feel your founder [if I had one] said this. I don't care what you believe about your own faith. It's just what I believe."

That's different than saying

"Hey, we have different beliefs. I feel we can become a family. I agree that your religion says X. I won't reinterpret your religion since you know more about it than I. You religion matters to me."

That is a powerful statement: Your religion matters to me.

You said

1. To take out traditions, rituals, and dogma to get to world peace
2. You believe this (and human family) regardless of what others say about their own faith.

How is that building to world peace??

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

You cannot build towards world peace if you're

1. Expecting people to one day become Bahai

2. Saying that Bahaullah wants to take out ritual and dogma to build world peace (this is for the whole world-aka world peace)

3. Having a faith without ritual and dogma but trying to respect faiths that do (which means why not have rituals and dogma if you feel others are fine?)

4. Ignoring the fact that Bahaullah's teachings are dogma; thereby going against your own statements

5. Building towards world peace under one foundation and one teacher for this day.

World peace is completely different than one-sided faiths. As @Vinayaka says, ALL faiths consider themselves superiority. (Except me of course ) That doesn't mean you're forceful about it. You can be nice and your faith will be dominate. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Vinayaka]

We don't want to lose culture, tradition and diversity on the one hand but allowing fanatics to declare others 'infidels' and use that to kill and destroy is the other extreme.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to criticize Islam, go for it. But please do not include the other peace loving religions like Hinduism, many branches of Christianity, paganisn, Buddhism, in your simplistic overgeneralisations about religions not working.

 

[whirlingmerc]

both the great and the small will be judged according to Revelation

 

[loverofhumanity]

We need to start with changing ourselves. For the Baha'i', if they want to be taken seriously, a good first step would be to allow women in the Baha'i House of Justice. That would indicate some seriousness in all this 'talk'.

Another step would be to radically undo statements like this:

"The inhabitants of a country life Africa are all as wandering savages and wild animals. They lack intelligence and knowledge; all are uncivilized; not one civilized and a wise man is not to be found among them. These are the proofs of the wise men. The prophets also acknowledge this opinion, towit: That education hath a great effect upon the human race, but they declare that minds and comprehensions are originally different. And this matter is self-evident; it cannot be refuted. We see that certain children of the same age, nativity and race, nay, from the same household, under the tutorship of one teacher, differ in their minds and conprehensions. One advanceth rapidly, another is slow in catching the rays of culture, still another remaineth in the lowest degree of stupidity. No matter how much the shell is educated (or polished), it can never become a radiant pearl. The black stone will not become the world-illumined gem." (Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Baha p.567 vv.3-4)

Here Abdul-Baha first quotes European writers who, in the 19th century said they regarded ALL Africans as savages with not one civilized man among them.

So He us only using the views of European Writers at that time to DISPROVE their claims. He is quoting them. Their view us not endorsed by Abdul-Baha or the Prophets because He goes on to REFUTE that everyone has the same capacity.

He agrees that people need education but sets about refuting the racist views of some European writers of that time.


“The prophets also acknowledge this opinion, towit: That education hath a great effect upon the human race, but they declare that minds and comprehensions are originally different. And this matter is self-evident; it cannot be refuted. We see that certain children of the same age, nativity and race, nay, from the same household, under the tutorship of one teacher, differ in their minds and comprehensions. One advanceth rapidly, another is slow in catching the rays of culture, still another remaineth in the lowest degree of stupidity.”

Abdul-Baha is saying that the Prophets endorse education but refute the idea of one race being completely savage or lacking in intelligence because the Prophets say 'minds and comprehensions are different' thus refuting the claims by European writers of the 19th century that all Africans were unintelligent, wild savages with not one wise man.

Abdul-Baha is openly refuting the racial arguments circulating at that time by stating that the Prophets of God do not agree with what European writers were saying at that time.

The entire argument is a refutation of racist views at the time read within its proper context.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to criticize Islam, go for it. But please do not include the other peace loving religions like Hinduism, many branches of Christianity, paganisn, Buddhism, in your simplistic overgeneralisations about religions not working.

Some examples I felt were needed because of the insistence to keep all traditions at all costs. We need to keep only what is in the best interests of humanity and not that which is harmful - common sense I would think.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

These are things the whole world must work together to solve.

You can't work together if Bahaullah is the only one leading world peace for this day.

You're working for lesser peace and mistaking it for greater world peace. If you want spiritual world peace it's beyond respect.

Their beliefs do matter. If you don't realize that, there will be no world peace.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

You cannot build towards world peace if you're

1. Expecting people to one day become Bahai

2. Saying that Bahaullah wants to take out ritual and dogma to build world peace (this is for the whole world-aka world peace)

3. Having a faith without ritual and dogma but trying to respect faiths that do (which means why not have rituals and dogma if you feel others are fine?)

4. Ignoring the fact that Bahaullah's teachings are dogma; thereby going against your own statements

5. Building towards world peace under one foundation and one teacher for this day.

World peace is completely different than one-sided faiths. As @Vinayaka says, ALL faiths consider themselves superiority. (Except me of course ) That doesn't mean you're forceful about it. You can be nice and your faith will be dominate. There is nothing wrong with that.

We are only following what we believe is true like any other Faith.
We aren't taking anything away from anyone just practicing our own way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We are only following what we believe is true like any other Faith.
We aren't taking anything away from anyone just practicing our own way.

You cannot have world peace by the way you practice and believe.

You must change your perspective beyond respect, look at the differences, and find ways to go beyond understanding other religions but actually saying "your religions do matter" regardless of what I believe.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You can't work together if Bahaullah is the only one leading world peace for this day.

You're working for lesser peace and mistaking it for greater world peace. If you want spiritual world peace it's beyond respect.

Their beliefs do matter. If you don't realize that, there will be no world peace.

Baha'u'llah only leads us Baha'is Other religions follow their own Founder. We are not working for political peace but a spiritual one.

 

[Vinayaka]

The entire argument is a refutation of racist views at the time read within its proper context.

Thanks for the explanation. Other sites indicated that the Bab and Baha'ullah also owned slaves. What is the Baha'i' refutation of this?

 

[loverofhumanity]

You cannot have world peace by the way you practice and believe.

You must change your perspective beyond respect, look at the differences, and find ways to go beyond understanding other religions but actually saying "your religions do matter" regardless of what I believe.

That's diversity. Others should accept our diversity just like we accept theirs. Live and let live.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'u'llah only leads us Baha'is Other religions follow their own Founder. We are not working for political peace but a spiritual one.

You cannot work to spiritual world peace by following your religion.

Again, "You must change your perspective beyond respect, look at the differences, and find ways to go beyond understanding other religions but actually saying "your religions do matter" regardless of what I believe."