How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

It's too long ago, and I'm not about to read it all over again, but somehere I did read a quote of his on him being infallible. I'll take a brief look again.

And many have researched Baha'i'. Some accepted him. Some didn't. I don't know the numbers.

In my readings of his, I certainly didn't find much of anything like what you said above. Certainly it has been a tremendous challenge for myself and Carlita to have the Baha'i' followers on this forum look independently, or research anything from beyond the official Baha'i' writings. It's been mostly quoting and regurgitation. But I get that too, as a psychological need for some people.

That's a good question as to how deeply and how independently people research the different religions to see if what Baha'u'llah said about them is true.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's a good question as to how deeply and how independently people research the different religions to see if what Baha'u'llah said about them is true.

Certainly for Hinduism, it isn't so much outright error, but error of omission. He said very little, maybe one comment. (Krishna was our prophet, false but not that far off either) That would be true for almost all faiths except for the ones in the area where the Baha'i got going. So all it is is massive amounts of assuming, and much of that false. But in the Abrahamic cases, if I can believe what some people (you and Carlita) have said, it has been outright error. There has only been one Moslem enter this foray, so we know little about how accurate Baha'i' portrays Islam, but what little we know involved distortion.

I certainly don't get the impression that there is a lot of independent investigating going on, but I also don't know much about how you could do that regarding history. I sure ain't a history type, far more concerned with current stuff.

I'm interested in this debate now more as a personal study in subconscious programming, strong as it is. I knew it was strong in certain fundamentalists, as strong as a brick wall, but in a faith that purports a more open mind, but can't seem to act on it, it obviously gets more complex psychologically.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think you're talking to too many people.



It does matter what they believe. That's how you come to world peace. It's not a one-teacher of this day nor is it respect without agreement (since god overrides people's opinion, as said before).

Other religions believe they are brothers and sisters many believe they are one family. The difference between you, other universalist and other non-universalist religions is they know their boundaries and their respect is more than social but spiritual.

Yes many believe they are one family but they are not. They can't agree on a single Book or Prophet and have had to have wars and had to separate into schisms because of disagreements. That is no family.

Had they 'known their boundaries' they would never have fought each other or spilled blood over theology and would have simply agreed to disagree.

When the Catholics and protestants were blowing up each other in Northern Ireland that was them 'knowing their spiritual boundaries'?

Sunnis and Shias at each other's throats and mass killing each other is knowing their boundaries??

Buddhists and Muslims killing each other in Burma is respecting each otters boundaries? Sri Lanka Hindus vs Buddhists that was one family? Yeah sure these people who hate the sight of each other are just one big loving happy family.

If they were one family and had a good teacher who could control their violence then we wouldn't need Baha'u'llah but they can't.

Refer to history, things like the Crusades and the Inquisition and the Seige of Jerusalem and even the present time when it's war after war. One stops, another starts.

There isn't one big happy family at all.

It does matter if their beliefs lead them to prejudice, hatred and wars. It affects all of us and we shouldn't just sweep it under the carpet under things like boundaries and leave them to continue their conflicts,

 

[loverofhumanity]

This does not address the idea that you are looking at Islam and then transferring those abhorrent behaviours to the rest of us. I view it as unfair characterisation. I would never characterise Baha'i on what Buddhists do,

If one study Islam you will find that it is disobedience to the Quran that is the problem not Islam itself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you see spirituality like this, of course there is no unity and family.

Yes many believe they are one family but they are not. They can't agree on a single Book or Prophet and have had to have wars and had to separate into schisms because of disagreements. That is no family.

You have no right to say they are not one family. My family has been through a lot of s/. My mother raised me. My father finally still connects with me. My mother has I think five last names. Every child has their own father.

We are one big happy family. We have unity. We talk to each other. We communicate, hang out.

An outsider would think we are no a family. They have no right to say such a thing.

Likewise, you have no right to say such a thing. It's one thing to talk about your own beliefs, its another to talk about someone elses.

Had they 'known their boundaries' they would never have fought each other or spilled blood over theology and would have simply agreed to disagree.

Brothers and sisters fight and know their boundaries. Yet, they still come to Mass and sit at one dinner table during Christmas. Families are not perfect. But, in Catholicism (for example), what is beautiful is out of all the disagreements, interpretations, and opinions, they all come back to one core, Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. They all commune in one body.

If you cannot see that, that is not the fault or disunion of the people but you are just not able to see that. I don't know why, but there it is.

When the Catholics and protestants were blowing up each other in Northern Ireland that was them 'knowing their spiritual boundaries'?

Have you gone to Mass or a Southern Baptist Sermon? Have you talked to individuals and actually want to understand intimately their relationship with Christ????

You, again, are judging a person's spirituality on history. I'd never do that with you. But I don't know you, and the quotes about Bahaullah and what you're saying about other religions don't give me a good idea of the rest of your morals. It's all reflecting off of how you see other religions and their faults instead of their strengths.

Sunnis and Shias at each other's throats and mass killing each other is knowing their boundaries??

Again, you're looking at the wrong thing.

Buddhists and Muslims killing each other in Burma is respecting each otters boundaries? Sri Lanka Hindus vs Buddhists that was one family? Yeah sure these people who hate the sight of each other are just one big loving happy family.

Same as above.

If they were one family and had a good teacher who could control their violence then we wouldn't need Baha'u'llah but they can't.

They are good families and have many teachers. It's actually beautiful to have that type of diversity.

Refer to history, things like the Crusades and the Inquisition and the Seige of Jerusalem and even the present time when it's war after war. One stops, another starts.

Take it to a local level and go to Easter Vigil, Christmas Mass, local Mass, congratulate people who come to christ, find ways to help people in their spiritual faith not yours, charity, and so forth. You don't need Bahaullah to do that. But people have their own faith. I never heard a Catholic say any other religion is at fault because they don't have christ. Protestants seem to do that. You do that but I don't know if that's the bahai faith or just your opinion.

There isn't one big happy family at all.

You don't know that because you are not part of every family. Believe me if you actually participate in Mass, you wouldn't see the inquisition and priest actions as a rect to a family at its core. People still come to the Eucharist. People still have Mass. The family is still there.

Families are not perfect. No one. Bahaullah included.

It does matter if their beliefs lead them to prejudice, hatred and wars. It affects all of us and we shouldn't just sweep it under the carpet under things like boundaries and leave them to continue their conflicts,

Wait. So if you became Catholic, would your beliefs lead you to prejudice?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you see spirituality like this, of course there is no unity and family.


You have no right to say they are not one family. My family has been through a lot of s/. My mother raised me. My father finally still connects with me. My mother has I think five last names. Every child has their own father.

We are one big happy family. We have unity. We talk to each other. We communicate, hang out.

An outsider would think we are no a family. They have no right to say such a thing.

Likewise, you have no right to say such a thing. It's one thing to talk about your own beliefs, its another to talk about someone elses.



Brothers and sisters fight and know their boundaries. Yet, they still come to Mass and sit at one dinner table during Christmas. Families are not perfect. But, in Catholicism (for example), what is beautiful is out of all the disagreements, interpretations, and opinions, they all come back to one core, Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. They all commune in one body.

If you cannot see that, that is not the fault or disunion of the people but you are just not able to see that. I don't know why, but there it is.



Have you gone to Mass or a Southern Baptist Sermon? Have you talked to individuals and actually want to understand intimately their relationship with Christ????

You, again, are judging a person's spirituality on history. I'd never do that with you. But I don't know you, and the quotes about Bahaullah and what you're saying about other religions don't give me a good idea of the rest of your morals. It's all reflecting off of how you see other religions and their faults instead of their strengths.



Again, you're looking at the wrong thing.



Same as above.



They are good families and have many teachers. It's actually beautiful to have that type of diversity.



Take it to a local level and go to Easter Vigil, Christmas Mass, local Mass, congratulate people who come to christ, find ways to help people in their spiritual faith not yours, charity, and so forth. You don't need Bahaullah to do that. But people have their own faith. I never heard a Catholic say any other religion is at fault because they don't have christ. Protestants seem to do that. You do that but I don't know if that's the bahai faith or just your opinion.



You don't know that because you are not part of every family. Believe me if you actually participate in Mass, you wouldn't see the inquisition and priest actions as a rect to a family at its core. People still come to the Eucharist. People still have Mass. The family is still there.

Families are not perfect. No one. Bahaullah included.



Wait. So if you became Catholic, would your beliefs lead you to prejudice?

History doesn't lie or camoflauge the truth. So on history alone we have never been a family.

I was born a catholic and I was taught in catholic schools that Jews were evil people. I felt uneasy from that day onwards.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I was born a catholic and I was taught in catholic schools that Jews were evil people. I felt uneasy from that day onwards.

Did that lead you towards prejudice?

I was Catholic too, I never felt nor taught anything towards prejudice and I felt comfortable too.

History doesn't address people's individual spirituality. Do you think it does?

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you see spirituality like this, of course there is no unity and family.


You have no right to say they are not one family. My family has been through a lot of s/. My mother raised me. My father finally still connects with me. My mother has I think five last names. Every child has their own father.

We are one big happy family. We have unity. We talk to each other. We communicate, hang out.

An outsider would think we are no a family. They have no right to say such a thing.

Likewise, you have no right to say such a thing. It's one thing to talk about your own beliefs, its another to talk about someone elses.



Brothers and sisters fight and know their boundaries. Yet, they still come to Mass and sit at one dinner table during Christmas. Families are not perfect. But, in Catholicism (for example), what is beautiful is out of all the disagreements, interpretations, and opinions, they all come back to one core, Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. They all commune in one body.

If you cannot see that, that is not the fault or disunion of the people but you are just not able to see that. I don't know why, but there it is.



Have you gone to Mass or a Southern Baptist Sermon? Have you talked to individuals and actually want to understand intimately their relationship with Christ????

You, again, are judging a person's spirituality on history. I'd never do that with you. But I don't know you, and the quotes about Bahaullah and what you're saying about other religions don't give me a good idea of the rest of your morals. It's all reflecting off of how you see other religions and their faults instead of their strengths.



Again, you're looking at the wrong thing.



Same as above.



They are good families and have many teachers. It's actually beautiful to have that type of diversity.



Take it to a local level and go to Easter Vigil, Christmas Mass, local Mass, congratulate people who come to christ, find ways to help people in their spiritual faith not yours, charity, and so forth. You don't need Bahaullah to do that. But people have their own faith. I never heard a Catholic say any other religion is at fault because they don't have christ. Protestants seem to do that. You do that but I don't know if that's the bahai faith or just your opinion.



You don't know that because you are not part of every family. Believe me if you actually participate in Mass, you wouldn't see the inquisition and priest actions as a rect to a family at its core. People still come to the Eucharist. People still have Mass. The family is still there.

Families are not perfect. No one. Bahaullah included.



Wait. So if you became Catholic, would your beliefs lead you to prejudice?

I'm speaking about the human family not on a local level. Of course there are many loving families but we're trying to dole the problem of 6,000 years of continually resorting to wars and violence and trying to encourage peaceful ways if settling differences such as through consultation instead of guns and weapons.

Humanity is weary. No one wants to fight another meaningless, useless, wasteful war over stupid theological or racial and religious prejudices.

We can have things like world education, world employment and world healthcare if we can just stop putting aside $trillions for military budgets.

The North Koreans starve their people to get nukes. Why waste money in weapons when people are in such need. People come first not wars or violence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Did that lead you towards prejudice?

I was Catholic too, I never felt nor taught anything towards prejudice and I felt comfortable too.

History doesn't address people's individual spirituality. Do you think it does?

History is accumulative. Being told Jews were evil was a result of an interpretation of history. The Jews crucified Christ so Jews were evil in these people's minds. But why my generation iof Jews? They didn't do it. This made me feel confused and eventually I rejected that Faith as it told me to love my enemies yet hate the Jews. Also later in life I came across Christians telling everyone Buddha was from Satan and I wasn't happy with that attitude either. We shouldn't also be saying things like Muhammad is a terrorist or pedophile. You think that will lead to world peace?

Bad traditions such as insulting other Founders need to be gotten rid of dont you think?

One Christian here said they all the Prophets may have taught good but he believed Jesus was the best. That's more friendly and peaceful. That's a much more peaceful attitude.

I believe from what I see of you that Pagans are good people, Hindus are good and I have no reason to condemn anyone. But I condemn traditions which cause hatred and prejudice because they lead to nothing but violence and wars.

We can agree to disagree but you are people first and I think you're all fantastic people and very mature, patient and tolerant towards us.

My wife would have put up with me for 40 years next year and she jokingly reminds me next year is her 40th year in prison.!! Lol.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm speaking about the human family not on a local level. Of course there are many loving families but we're trying to dole the problem of 6,000 years of continually resorting to wars and violence and trying to encourage peaceful ways if settling differences such as through consultation instead of guns and weapons.

Humanity is weary. No one wants to fight another meaningless, useless, wasteful war over stupid theological or racial and religious prejudices.

We can have things like world education, world employment and world healthcare if we can just stop putting aside $trillions for military budgets.

The North Koreans starve their people to get nukes. Why waste money in weapons when people are in such need. People come first not wars or violence.

It's starts individually, goes locally, environmental, societal, national, and hopefully global.

You're judging a person's spirituality on the history of their religion.

I feel that is wrong.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

History is accumulative. Being told Jews were evil was a result of an interpretation of history. The Jews crucified Christ so Jews were evil in these people's minds. But why my generation iof Jews? They didn't do it. This made me feel confused and eventually I rejected that Faith as it told me to love my enemies yet hate the Jews. Also later in life I came across Christians telling everyone Buddha was from Satan and I wasn't happy with that attitude either. We shouldn't also be saying things like Muhammad is a terrorist or pedophile. You think that will lead to world peace?

Bad traditions such as insulting other Founders need to be gotten rid of dont you think?

One Christian here said they all the Prophets may have taught good but he believed Jesus was the best. That's more friendly and peaceful. That's a much more peaceful attitude.

I believe from what I see of you that Pagans are good people, Hindus are good and I have no reason to condemn anyone. But I condemn traditions which cause hatred and prejudice because they lead to nothing but violence and wars.

We can agree to disagree but you are people first and I think you're all fantastic people and very mature, patient and tolerant towards us.

My wife would have put up with me for 40 years next year and she jokingly reminds me next year is her 40th year in prison.!! Lol.

It somewhat sounds like your views are based on your upbringing and religious experiences rather than a genuine belief that spirituality of a person reflects the history of his religion.

Another way I see this is when you say many times that Bahai doesn't have the same history as other religions. Again, that's basing one's spirituality on the history of their religion. Whether that is a cultural thing, I don't know. American culture is about independence, freedom, and "work for oneself" and other values people born and raised here take up.

Like I said, change your perspective. You don't have to be glued to it, but changing it would help you see in other people's shoes. I don't post thousands of posts to prove you're wrong or anything. Just your logic in your religion and how you express it is illogical in my noggin' and this stubborn American just want to get to the bottom of it

When we say judge, domination, discriminate, condemn, and so forth, we don't mean it in a harsh way. Just your religion is a dominate religion, it does judge other people's religions as "ill in need of a cure." It does discriminate between themselves and others by Bahaullah's quote of taking TLC out of people's religions not just yours. It does condemn people by telling them without Bahaullah's message, there will be no greater peace, and so forth.

It's the language. But the lady I first thought we were going into a relationship with ended up as a start of a good friendship only. Probably latter on, I'd think "oooh thats! what loverofhumanity was thinking" and referring to you as if that's your name. Haha.

RFers been on this thing too long. lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's starts individually, goes locally, environmental, societal, national, and hopefully global.

You're judging a person's spirituality on the history of their religion.

I feel that is wrong.

That's why we need to address such things as male dominance in the family because these harmful habits spread to the world & have led to an aggressive, confrontational world whereas women in general are mainly about family quality of life and need to have equal say in the family and our world for us to progress and have peace.

That's why gender equality is so crucial to peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It somewhat sounds like your views are based on your upbringing and religious experiences rather than a genuine belief that spirituality of a person reflects the history of his religion.

Carlita, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I like to clear it up.

The Bahai Faith teaches that, we all should be like One Loving Family. However through out the History, People fought with each other, and killed many. One of the reasons for this has been Religious Fanaticism. I think what LoverOfhumanity is trying to point out is that, True Religion must be the cause of unity. Every time, people hold a religious belief that teaches other than loving and unity and promoting hate and disunity, that religion is false. This is what Bahai Faith teaches. So, Bahai Faith teaches that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and His Religion if understood correctly, and acted according to it, is the cause of unity and love. But if, any group of people come and interpret it in such a way, as to make it cause of disunity, then that interpretation is false. The Bahai Faith is trying to correct such false interpretations.
And for a fact, there has been many wars, between different Christian sects. There has been war between, Muslim sects. There has been war between Muslims and Christians. Bahai Faith sees all of these, as false understanding and abuse of Religions. In another words, true Islam which is Religion of God, would promote peace and unity. But those wars that are done in the name of Religion, is due to Religious fanaticism, and abuse and misinterpretations of Religion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And this is a quote from Abdulbaha on this subject:

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 127-134

 

[whirlingmerc]

Moses was foundational and foreshadowed the Christ who would come
Christ is the one casting the shadow

The Right Hand of God in the Psalms

 

[whirlingmerc]

Christ was for all people tongues and nations... every family on earth
as was promised to Abraham

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's why we need to address such things as male dominance in the family because these harmful habits spread to the world & have led to an aggressive, confrontational world whereas women in general are mainly about family quality of life and need to have equal say in the family and our world for us to progress and have peace.

That's why gender equality is so crucial to peace.

I don't see how that relates. How does a religion's history define a person's individual spirituality?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It somewhat sounds like your views are based on your upbringing and religious experiences rather than a genuine belief that spirituality of a person reflects the history of his religion.

Another way I see this is when you say many times that Bahai doesn't have the same history as other religions. Again, that's basing one's spirituality on the history of their religion. Whether that is a cultural thing, I don't know. American culture is about independence, freedom, and "work for oneself" and other values people born and raised here take up.

Like I said, change your perspective. You don't have to be glued to it, but changing it would help you see in other people's shoes. I don't post thousands of posts to prove you're wrong or anything. Just your logic in your religion and how you express it is illogical in my noggin' and this stubborn American just want to get to the bottom of it

When we say judge, domination, discriminate, condemn, and so forth, we don't mean it in a harsh way. Just your religion is a dominate religion, it does judge other people's religions as "ill in need of a cure." It does discriminate between themselves and others by Bahaullah's quote of taking TLC out of people's religions not just yours. It does condemn people by telling them without Bahaullah's message, there will be no greater peace, and so forth.

It's the language. But the lady I first thought we were going into a relationship with ended up as a start of a good friendship only. Probably latter on, I'd think "oooh thats! what loverofhumanity was thinking" and referring to you as if that's your name. Haha.

RFers been on this thing too long. lol

Religion was created for happiness and love not for misery yet there have been far too many wars and too much bloodshed in the name of religion.

We can coexist but it must be by seeing each other as equals.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't see how that relates. How does a religion's history define a person's individual spirituality?

You were speaking about everything starting with the family.

I was simply agreeing that if we have harmful habits in the family they will spread to the the world arena.

One very harmful habit in the family is male do,inamcd and that has spread all throughout the world. It's mainly male aggression which starts and fights wars.

So if we want world peace women must have an equal say in world affairs as woman is much more family orientated and we need family not endless confrontations which men seem to be so good at.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have to split longer posts. I can't remember my points if I don't.

The Bahai Faith teaches that, we all should be like One Loving Family. However through out the History, People fought with each other, and killed many.

One of the reasons for this has been Religious Fanaticism. I think what LoverOfhumanity is trying to point out is that, True Religion must be the cause of unity. Every time, people hold a religious belief that teaches other than loving and unity and promoting hate and disunity, that religion is false.

I told Loverofhumanity (and adrian) that the problem is not the goal. I agree with your goals. I don't agree with your methods and morals behind it.

This is what Bahai Faith teaches. So, Bahai Faith teaches that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, and His Religion if understood correctly, and acted according to it, is the cause of unity and love. But if, any group of people come and interpret it in such a way, as to make it cause of disunity, then that interpretation is false.

The Bahai Faith is trying to correct such false interpretations.

The problem is you are seeing say christianity is false because multiple people have different interpretations. So you have the right to reinterpret those teachings without being a christian to do so. That is what I find wrong. Not your goals.

But if, any group of people come and interpret it in such a way, as to make it cause of disunity, then that interpretation is false. The Bahai Faith is trying to correct such false interpretations. And for a fact, there has been many wars, between different Christian sects. There has been war between, Muslim sects. There has been war between Muslims and Christians.

A diversity of interpretations (which I assume you guys say you respect) does not make a religion false. Bahai has no right to reinterpret someone else's teachings. Period.

Bahai Faith sees all of these, as false understanding and abuse of Religions. In another words, true Islam which is Religion of God, would promote peace and unity. But those wars that are done in the name of Religion, is due to Religious fanaticism, and abuse and misinterpretations of Religion

You're thinking the interpretations are the religions. As if fixing the religion will sooth the interpretation.

If you respected diversity and experienced the religions you're reinterpreting for world peace, you'd find that reinterpretation is not the answer. It is at an individual level. It cannot be a one-sided faith. Everyone has to contribute. A family isn't a family unless you take into consideration other people's interpretations as part of the truth

regardless if they cause wars or peace.