How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah only leads us Baha'is Other religions follow their own Founder. We are not working for political peace but a spiritual one.

My religion (and several others) doesn't have a founder, or need I remind you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's diversity. Others should accept our diversity just like we accept theirs. Live and let live.

You want world peace. With world peace, again, you cannot get that with how you believe. It goes beyond mere respect and acceptance. You have to change your perception, look at differences, and say "your beliefs do matter regardless of what I believe."

 

[Vinayaka]

Some examples I felt were needed because of the insistence to keep all traditions at all costs. We need to keep only what is in the best interests of humanity and not that which is harmful - common sense I would think.

Most, if not all, of your examples are from Islamist behaviour, and don't apply to other faiths. It is little wonder the Bab was seen as a godsend. Practically anything would have been seen as a vast improvement on that. I don't think he traveled much or saw much outside of radical Islam.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thanks for the explanation. Other sites indicated that the Bab and Baha'ullah also owned slaves. What is the Baha'i' refutation of this?

Ok. Baha'u'llah's father had slaves or servants and once he passed away they were inherited by Baha'u'llah. This was around 1830 before He was a Manifestation and I think before the English abolished slavery.

Baha'u'llah set free all His inherited slaves and revealed a prayer about it.

The Baha’i Prayer that Freed the Slaves

It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. (Most Holy Book)

Baha’u’llah once compared the coloured people to the black pupil of the eye surrounded by the white. In this black pupil you see the reflection of that which is before it, and through it the light of the Spirit shines forth. – Abdu’l-Baha, Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 68.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You want world peace. With world peace, again, you cannot get that with how you believe. It goes beyond mere respect and acceptance. You have to change your perception, look at differences, and say "your beliefs do matter regardless of what I believe."

Of course they matter! Everyone's beliefs are precious. I fully agree.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Most, if not all, of your examples are from Islamist behaviour, and don't apply to other faiths. It is little wonder the Bab was seen as a godsend. Practically anything would have been seen as a vast improvement on that. I don't think he traveled much or saw much outside of radical Islam.

As long as we get along traditions are fine. It's only when they become desructive that we need to look at changng them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My religion (and several others) doesn't have a founder, or need I remind you?

Maybe I could have said path.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Of course they matter! Everyone's beliefs are precious. I fully agree.

I think you're talking to too many people.

To me they're all family and brothers and sisters no matter what they believe.

It does matter what they believe. That's how you come to world peace. It's not a one-teacher of this day nor is it respect without agreement (since god overrides people's opinion, as said before).

Other religions believe they are brothers and sisters many believe they are one family. The difference between you, other universalist and other non-universalist religions is they know their boundaries and their respect is more than social but spiritual.

 

[Vinayaka]

As long as we get along traditions are fine. It's only when they become desructive that we need to look at changng them.

This does not address the idea that you are looking at Islam and then transferring those abhorrent behaviours to the rest of us. I view it as unfair characterisation. I would never characterise Baha'i on what Buddhists do,

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think you're talking to too many people.



It does matter what they believe. That's how you come to world peace. It's not a one-teacher of this day nor is it respect without agreement (since god overrides people's opinion, as said before).

Other religions believe they are brothers and sisters many believe they are one family. The difference between you, other universalist and other non-universalist religions is they know their boundaries and their respect is more than social but spiritual.

I think to best understand why Bahais believe we need an Educator, is to also read, the Book, Some Answered Question. There is a section called "The Need for an Educator"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think to best understand why Bahais believe we need an Educator, is to also read, the Book, Some Answered Question. There is a section called "The Need for an Educator"

I understand why you need an educator. Logically, it does not make sense. For example, I understand if I had a child why he got four when putting three fingers up on one hand and two on another. He is still learning math and counting with his fingers. That doesn't mean he is correct just because I understand why he got it wrong. It's wrong regardless.

In this case, needing on educator without recognizing there are more than one for this time period is being ignorant to a lot of religions and/or as @loverofhumanity says disregarding them (my words) because one god overrides their opinions and two Bahaullah says (as he quoted) he will take away rituals, traditions, and dogmas to build world peace.

Not just from the Bahai religion but from other religions via how Bahaullah interprets their prophets (and assumes prophets in some religions that don't have any) in order to build world peace.

My whole point is centered around Bahai method of building world peace. Christians want peace among themselves. So, there is nothing to say. They don't incorporate anyone who isn't a child of god.

Once you say everyone or the world then a lot of people become involved. If their decisions are discarded because of traditions, rituals, and practices, that is not world peace

regardless if there is one educator or many.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I understand why you need an educator. Logically, it does not make sense. For example, I understand if I had a child why he got four when putting three fingers up on one hand and two on another. He is still learning math and counting with his fingers. That doesn't mean he is correct just because I understand why he got it wrong. It's wrong regardless.

In this case, needing on educator without recognizing there are more than one for this time period is being ignorant to a lot of religions and/or as @loverofhumanity says disregarding them (my words) because one god overrides their opinions and two Bahaullah says (as he quoted) he will take away rituals, traditions, and dogmas to build world peace.

Not just from the Bahai religion but from other religions via how Bahaullah interprets their prophets (and assumes prophets in some religions that don't have any) in order to build world peace.

My whole point is centered around Bahai method of building world peace. Christians want peace among themselves. So, there is nothing to say. They don't incorporate anyone who isn't a child of god.

Once you say everyone or the world then a lot of people become involved. If their decisions are discarded because of traditions, rituals, and practices, that is not world peace

regardless if there is one educator or many.

What you might be missing is that, Bahais do not say we just need a universal educator. They say, this Universal Educator must only be One who is infallible, and that Person is Manifestation of God.

If you say, you do not believe that, there is an All-knowing God, who Manifests Himself, you are off course entitled to your belief. But if you want to say, this belief that there is a God is false, then, I have to ask you, why do you think that Bahaullah is not infallible, and He is not the Manifestation of God?
Have you read the reasons and evidences that Bahaullah have set forth, as a proof of His claim?

Think of it this way. If Bahaullah is He, who claims to be, then whatever He says is the very truth, regardless if many do not like what He says, and if He is lying and He is not Manifestation of God, then it does not matter even if He may say all the good words. I think first, we need to investigate about His claim.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think to best understand why Bahais believe we need an Educator, is to also read, the Book, Some Answered Question. There is a section called "The Need for an Educator"

Recommending Baha'i' books and saying nothing else is proselytizing, my friend.

 

[Vinayaka]

What you might be missing is that, Bahais do not say we just need a universal educator. They say, this Universal Educator must only be One who is infallible, and that Person is Manifestation of God.

Oh I don't think anyone here is missing that teaching of the Baha'i'. It may well just be the most fundamental reason we don't agree with Baha'i'. This 'I'm infallible because I say I'm infallible!" is pretty outragious to most of us here, other than Baha'i's.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you might be missing is that, Bahais do not say we just need a universal educator. They say, this Universal Educator must only be One who is infallible, and that Person is Manifestation of God.

It is a universal educator. You believe it comes from the same source-god. You disregard that other revealed religions have different sources. Then put them all together in a progression as if they are somehow connected to each other. They are not. There isn't many educators at their era that are tied together. That's illogical given how culture and the world works. I know I'm not well-traveled, but I'd assume most people know the boundaries of their own culture and religion and another person's regardless of how similar they are.

If you say, you do not believe that, there is an All-knowing God, who Manifests Himself, you are off course entitled to it. But if you want to say, this belief that there is a God is false, then, I have to ask you, why do you think that Bahaullah is not infallible, and He is not the Manifestation of God?

No one is infallible but god, if going by abrahamic definition. Unless you're relating to Bahaullah to how mainstream Christianity sees Christ, I don't see the logic in it. Even Muslims and Jews don't place their prophets at an equal level to the creator.

Bahaullah is a human just as Christ, Muhammad, and The Buddha. (Krishna and Maitreya is not in this) In Abrahaic tradition god is the only one infallible. In Buddhism no one is infallible. Everyone experiences suffering and imperfection.

I don't believe in god because I understand how god exist through and by the definition of people. He's not isolated from people. Making things infallible sounds more ego thing.

Have you read the reasons and evidences that Bahaullah have set forth, as a proof of His claim?

It's the same example I gave you with the little child. It's illogical regardless of how many times I read it. Believe me, over a thousands of threads, I read a lot about the Bahai faith. Still does not make sense.

Think of it this way. If Bahaullah is He, who claims to be, then whatever He says is the very truth, regardless if many do not like what He says, and if He is lying, then it does not matter even if He may say all the good words. I think first, we need to invstigate about His claim.

This is just like Christians. Just replace Christ with Bahaullah. It's the same thing. What you guys are thinking is if we read their claims we will all of the sudden like magic understand what you say. We do understand. Just say it in your own words and address my points.

My point is centered around world peace. You can't have world peace if Bahaullah is disregarding rituals, practices, and dogma that causes wars. You have none in you faith-so you think that i you had rituals, practices, and dogma you guys will have wars? If so, why? How?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

My point is centered around world peace. You can't have world peace if Bahaullah is disregarding rituals, practices, and dogma that causes wars. You have none in you faith-so you think that i you had rituals, practices, and dogma you guys will have wars? If so, why? How?

Actually, this is the very first time I heard, Bahais see rituals, practices and dogma as cause of war.

I do not recall Bahaullah said really something like that.
Bahaullah, identifies several problems with the way of people of this Age. Among those, are, fanaticism, including religious, racial, national fanaticism. He also identifies, another major problem to be disunity among people. Another major problem, He identifies is superstitious, vain imaginations, and idle fancies.
He then says, the Reality of human being, is the spirit of man, and this Spirit needs to be trained. He identifies certain spiritual illnesses.
So, He first identifies these problems, then He has a set of teachings, which is a new way of life, as a remedy and cure, to the problems He has identified.

For instance, a person may say, we must all be kind, and respectful to each other. We must all be healthy and happy and strong.
Look, everybody agrees with these. But what matters, is to identify what causes people not to be kind, or respectful, and more importantly 'How', we can be kind and respectful to each other.
I can say, I need to be healthy. But I need a Doctor, who can have the remedy. I need to know how to achieve good goals.
Bahai Faith has no less than 200 volumes of scriptures, to address the problems, and offer solution to the Problems of the Age, both at the individual level, as well as social and worldwide.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually, this is the very first time I heard, Bahais see rituals, practices and dogma as cause of war.

I do not recall Bahaullah said really something like that.
Bahaullah, identifies several problems with the way of people of this Age. Among those, are, fanaticism, including religious, racial, national fanaticism. He also identifies, another major problem to be disunity among people. Another major problem, He identifies is superstitious, vain imaginations, and idle fancies.
He then says, the Reality of human being, is the spirit of man, and this Spirit needs to be trained. He identifies certain spiritual illnesses.
So, He first identifies these problems, then He has a set of teachings, which is a new way of life, as a remedy and cure, to the problems He has identifies.

For instance, a person may say, we must all be kind, and respectful to each other. We must all be healthy and happy and strong.
Look, everybody agrees with these. But what matters, is to identify what causes people not to be kind, or respectful, and more importantly 'How', we can be kind and respectful to each other.
I can say, I need to be healthy. But I need a Doctor, who can have the remedy. I need to know how to achieve good goals.
Bahai Faith has no less than 200 volumes of scriptures, to address the problems, and offer solution to the Problems of the Age, both at the individual level, as well as social and worldwide.

Awwh. Yeah, each Bahai on this thread have different views of the core teachings of the faith. In Christianity, all Christians revert to christ regardless their views. In this case, I received a christian-bahai view, a universalist-bahai view, and you're telling me something I can't quite identify yet.

As for a new doctor, The Buddha calls himself in The Lotus Sutra (well, his disciples did) a doctor. He was using an analogy of helping others in the manner in which they would be best helped. So, instead of one-teacher/doctor to cure ills that are supposed to be the same throughout "older" religions its more curing ills in the method natural to that person's illness. That means many teachers-many practices and therefore many many many Dharma teachings of The Buddha.

Christianity is a one-teacher faith for only the body of christ. If you are not part of the body, you are not saved. Are they ill? One Bahai believe so, the other is a christian, and I don't know your views yet. I wouldn't say they are ill because of their history. Each person has thier spiritual fiath just as all the Bahai here do. So, if I had one-prophet of this day religion, I'd find it disrespectful to cure illnesses I am not experience in curing...

but then the exclusion is it comes from god. This is a hard one to get over because Buddhism doesn't believe in go an Hinduism is not the god of abraham. The Buddha is not a prophet. He turns to the Dharma. Krishna is only one of many many gods in Hinduism an doesn't represent Hinduism as a whole.

My point is if you are creating world peace it goes beyond respect at a social level, finding love in all religions (which are defined different), and saying "you're fine with your belief as I am mine." It comes with conversation, agreement, and a whole l ot of things that do not have Bahaullah, Christ, Brahma, or The Buddha at its core.

Every other religious I speak to get it. I don't understand why Bahai is different. Even with asking questions and I see you and others completely don't address the question or "change the goal post."

Shrugs.

 

[Vinayaka]

For instance, a person may say, we must all be kind, and respectful to each other.

In any given action or communication where there is an action from one person (call him/her the sender) on to the other (call him/her the receiver) who, in your opinion should be the one who determines whether or not that action is respectful or disrespectful? Should it be the sender, or the receiver?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Oh I don't think anyone here is missing that teaching of the Baha'i'. It may well just be the most fundamental reason we don't agree with Baha'i'. This 'I'm infallible because I say I'm infallible!" is pretty outragious to most of us here, other than Baha'i's.

But Bahaullah did not say, we just accept His claim blindly. He asked everyone to investigate Him independently.

 

[Vinayaka]

But Bahaullah did not say, we just accept His claim blindly. He asked everyone to investigate Him independently.

It's too long ago, and I'm not about to read it all over again, but somehere I did read a quote of his on him being infallible. I'll take a brief look again.

And many have researched Baha'i'. Some accepted him. Some didn't. I don't know the numbers.

In my readings of his, I certainly didn't find much of anything like what you said above. Certainly it has been a tremendous challenge for myself and Carlita to have the Baha'i' followers on this forum look independently, or research anything from beyond the official Baha'i' writings. It's been mostly quoting and regurgitation. But I get that too, as a psychological need for some people.