How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

You're not showing understanding and open-ended questions on how I see things. If what I say is something you disagree with, why? I know what you believe, but beyond our (edit) disagreements we have more things to learn. If respect and interest in differences is part of your faith, then it would be not only in who you are with in person but reflects your words both in person, phone, and online.



On that note of learning, we may have something sin common but the only way to see that is if we get beyond the vagueness of what we have in common (which you have not yet defined) and talk about our differences as well.



" I " (Ima be picky) didn't join Bahai Faith for me.... you had to join it for yourself. If that were the case, you would have stayed Catholic.

Why? Because Catholicism isn't a universalist faith. It's a we-faith. It's not one that promotes investigation outside of the Church walls. You can't even take communion in other christian churches. That is a we-faith.

Bahai is not a we-faith. It's universalist. It's a group of individuals working together. You said this in your comment of Bahai being able to investigate outside of the Bahai faith. What we-religion lets you do that?

The broader your religion is and free your religion is, the more it is individual rather than communal. You can still be for humanity. Just you're missing my point that

it starts with the individual. No one pushed you to the Bahai faith but you, right? The spiritual health starts with you.

So....

that is not just you we are talking about. It's about Christians, Muslims, Hinduis, Buddhist, Pagans, Wiccans, and everyone else.

It is highly wrong to define a person's spirituality by their religious history.

Why do you disagree with that?



Humanity is made up of individuals. You came into the Bahai faith. No one pulled you in, right?

You investigated it to see if it was right for you, no one forced you, right?

Christianity is the same just as Buddhism. But your experiences with Christianity blind you to the positive spiritual health it brings other individuals. Your lack of intimate knowledge in Hinduism makes you put them in the same category with other religions who have wars without addressing the people who actually believe in these religions and their individual spiritual health.

Remember. Not everyone things like you. So, if you are all for diversity, one place to start is understanding other people's worldviews. You don't have to agree but at least understand them enough to conversate about it.

Surface learning isn't enough if you want to have an interfaith conversation.

Yes it is extremely important to know other people's Faiths but of course well nigh impossible to know what every sect believes as there are so many.

Basically, I have travelled extensively in different countries for about 8 years, visited and spoke with many Buddhists at monasteries - I lived in a Buddhist village for 5 years. Was in Thailand for a year. Visited Hindus at their Temples - I visited India twice and visited temples in Australia and met Hindus often, Muslims at Mosques - I lived in a Muslim suburb Lakemba where I made friends with Muslims, Christians at their churches - I was a devout Catholic all my childhood , I visited Jews at their synagogues and continue to learn about all Faiths as their Faith is also part of my beliefs.

Have any of you been to our Houses of Worship or met Baha'is personally or attended any Baha'i function?

I have also studied all the Holy Books such as the Torah, Gospels, Quran, Bhagavad-Gita, Buddhist texts and many more as I come across them but there are so many wonderful teachings that a lifetime is not enough to study them all. It's nowhere near enough but it's a start. I don't know nearly as much as I would like to.

To obtain a proper understanding of the Baha'i Faith books like the Book of Certitude and God Passes By are indispensable.

To better communicate we all need to be better informed I totally agree. I have done and am continually doing my very best to be as well informed as possible about all Faiths both practical and theoretical and believe I haven't done too shabby a job over 42 years. But there's much more to learn.

 

[loverofhumanity]

LOL No I don't think so. The psychological need for a prophet is a very basic instinctive need, like the need for food, or shelter. It's one of several key things that separates us. So you are meant to be a Bahai.

Yes, Baha'i' is closer to Hinduism than Islam. I will give you that.

You have a guru don't you? To you isn't that your guide just like Baha'u'llah is our guide?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Basically, I have travelled extensively in different countries for about 8 years, visited and spoke with many Buddhists at monasteries - I lived in a Buddhist village for 5 years. Was in Thailand for a year. Visited Hindus at their Temples - I visited India twice and visited temples in Australia and met Hindus often, Muslims at Mosques - I lived in a Muslim suburb Lakemba where I made friends with Muslims, Christians at their churches - I was a devout Catholic all my childhood , I visited Jews at their synagogues and continue to learn about all Faiths as their Faith is also part of my beliefs.

We're talking about people in this thread. I am different than the Pagan next to me. @Vinayaka is different than the Hindu next to him. John Smith*, a good SGI Buddhist friend of mine is different than that one Buddhist you meet at a monastery. I've been to monasteries, temples, churches, and mosques.

You see similarities as a foundation.
I see differences as a foundation.

People will smile when you feel they have something in common.

People will frown when you don't recognize their foundation isn't their similarities but what makes each person unique.

This is American culture. I don't know how other cultures see it.

Have any of you been to our Houses of Worship or met Baha'is personally or attended any Baha'i function?

No. The closest Universalist Church like yours based on this thread is the Sokai Gokai International Organization. The SGI is based on Buddhist foundation off of a founder Nichiren Shonin. Like Bahai, they have a goal of world peace (kosen rofu). Like Bahai, their peace is defined by the buddha Nichiren Shonin. Like Bahai, they welcome all religions. Like Bahai, they are a religion with their own dogma, traditions, and practices. Like Bahai they quote the buddha (or Bodhisattva, more accurately) Shonin. The difference is your mentors have passed. Theirs are alive.

Every thing (no exgeration) here is christian. Catholic in my immediate environment and local protestant and Catholic mixed. No other religions near me. There's a Mosque a couple hours from here and a Synagogue I visited an hour or so away. The Buddhist temples are two hours away or more from me (by public transportation)....

Virginia isn't a "univeralist" state.

I have also studied all the Holy Books such as the Torah, Gospels, Quran, Bhagavad-Gita, Buddhist texts and many more as I come across them but there are so many wonderful teachings that a lifetime is not enough to study them all. It's nowhere near enough but it's a start. I don't know nearly as much as I would like to.

But you are not Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, nor Christian. I studied the bible too, that does't make me any more a practicing christian than you. I'd ask a Hindu for interpretation of the Gita. I wouldn't ask him for the interpretation of Bahaullah's writings.

To obtain a proper understanding of the Baha'i Faith books like the Book of Certitude and God Passes By are indispensable.

To better communicate we all need to be better informed I totally agree. I have done and am continually doing my very best to be as well informed as possible about all Faiths both practical and theoretical and believe I haven't done too shabby a job over 42 years. But there's much more to learn.

If we have a statement and/or question and you can't answer it, don't have time, or so have you. Refer to the question/statement in general "I know what you said about X" or whatever so we know you read our comment and decided for whatever reason not to reply.

Especially when we specifically say "you avoid X" then you can refer to it, either answer or comment on it, or let us know you don't care to, not interested, or whatever. But online people skim read. That's normal. But interfaith conversation there is more than just skim reading.

 

[Vinayaka]

You have a guru don't you? To you isn't that your guide just like Baha'u'llah is our guide?

Very different. There is no infallibility. The Hindu Gurus generally tell their devotees to figure it out for themselves mostly. For very personal one on one advice on personal spiritual matters, the Guru is there. I try to have a meeting with my Guru once a year, and ask Him personal questions, applicable only to me.

Also a huge difference between a living Guru and a deceased one. If Baha'u'llah were alive today, he might see things very differently than how he saw it 200 years ago within the confines of a very limiting Islamic culture.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We're talking about people in this thread. I am different than the Pagan next to me. @Vinayaka is different than the Hindu next to him. John Smith*, a good SGI Buddhist friend of mine is different than that one Buddhist you meet at a monastery. I've been to monasteries, temples, churches, and mosques.

You see similarities as a foundation.
I see differences as a foundation.

People will smile when you feel they have something in common.

People will frown when you don't recognize their foundation isn't their similarities but what makes each person unique.

This is American culture. I don't know how other cultures see it.



No. The closest Universalist Church like yours based on this thread is the Sokai Gokai International Organization. The SGI is based on Buddhist foundation off of a founder Nichiren Shonin. Like Bahai, they have a goal of world peace (kosen rofu). Like Bahai, their peace is defined by the buddha Nichiren Shonin. Like Bahai, they welcome all religions. Like Bahai, they are a religion with their own dogma, traditions, and practices. Like Bahai they quote the buddha (or Bodhisattva, more accurately) Shonin. The difference is your mentors have passed. Theirs are alive.

Every thing (no exgeration) here is christian. Catholic in my immediate environment and local protestant and Catholic mixed. No other religions near me. There's a Mosque a couple hours from here and a Synagogue I visited an hour or so away. The Buddhist temples are two hours away or more from me (by public transportation)....

Virginia isn't a "univeralist" state.



But you are not Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, nor Christian. I studied the bible too, that does't make me any more a practicing christian than you. I'd ask a Hindu for interpretation of the Gita. I wouldn't ask him for the interpretation of Bahaullah's writings.





If we have a statement and/or question and you can't answer it, don't have time, or so have you. Refer to the question/statement in general "I know what you said about X" or whatever so we know you read our comment and decided for whatever reason not to reply.

Especially when we specifically say "you avoid X" then you can refer to it, either answer or comment on it, or let us know you don't care to, not interested, or whatever. But online people skim read. That's normal. But interfaith conversation there is more than just skim reading.

I read all comments and do not skim read. But when it's just a statement and there's nothing more to add i sometimes haven't replied but I always read everything.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I read all comments and do not skim read. But when it's just a statement and there's nothing more to add i sometimes haven't replied but I always read everything.

For example.

Thousands of posts ago, you said that there is an under lining foundation of all religions. I asked you many many times what that foundation is. Then you said love (compassion and all of that). I asked you to define it. You didn't define it to me but you said something similar to @Vinayaka about everyone having a mystical experience. I said not everyone has mystical experiences. But I'm curious. If everyone has a mystical experience (even though I told you I have not) what is that mystical experience that we have in common. If it's peace-if my peace and your peace are the same, what is my peace?

The point of these repeated statements and questions is to understand how you define diversity, have it in your religion, and see if you can look at the differences that bond you guys together rather than the similarities.

If you can't define my peace, then even if I went to a Bahai event, I would not be respected spiritually because in order to do so, you'd have to be interested in the peace I have without reflecting it off of your own.

If you can define my peace, that would be great. At least I can see why you say everyone has something in common when I feel we don't.

We have disagreements but you've been quoting Bahaullah a lot that I don't understand the context behind it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Very different. There is no infallibility. The Hindu Gurus generally tell their devotees to figure it out for themselves mostly. For very personal one on one advice on personal spiritual matters, the Guru is there. I try to have a meeting with my Guru once a year, and ask Him personal questions, applicable only to me.

Also a huge difference between a living Guru and a deceased one. If Baha'u'llah were alive today, he might see things very differently than how he saw it 200 years ago within the confines of a very limiting Islamic culture.

Baha'u'llah provided for the future with the Universal House of Justice. So we do have a 'living guru' so to speak.

Although you say your guru is not infallible would you go against his advice? Same thing. You seek his advice and we seek the advice of the House of Justice. We have living guidance like you do but in a different form?

 

[loverofhumanity]

For example.

Thousands of posts ago, you said that there is an under lining foundation of all religions. I asked you many many times what that foundation is. Then you said love (compassion and all of that). I asked you to define it. You didn't define it to me but you said something similar to @Vinayaka about everyone having a mystical experience. I said not everyone has mystical experiences. But I'm curious. If everyone has a mystical experience (even though I told you I have not) what is that mystical experience that we have in common. If it's peace-if my peace and your peace are the same, what is my peace?

The point of these repeated statements and questions is to understand how you define diversity, have it in your religion, and see if you can look at the differences that bond you guys together rather than the similarities.

If you can't define my peace, then even if I went to a Bahai event, I would not be respected spiritually because in order to do so, you'd have to be interested in the peace I have without reflecting it off of your own.

If you can define my peace, that would be great. At least I can see why you say everyone has something in common when I feel we don't.

We have disagreements but you've been quoting Bahaullah a lot that I don't understand the context behind it.

I've always said that the foundation of all religions is their spiritual foundation, they all teach good, to serve humanity. To love all and to be virtuous and of good character. That is their foundation which is the part of religions that never dies.

But Baha'u'llah has brought laws for a world divination because the time is ripe. That's the main addition to the teachings of the past.

But humans are born good and it is the intrinsic spiritual soul or goodness that everyone has that is the foundation. No one is born evil. We all have a spiritual nature which is proven by the fact we incline towards good not evil

Whether you are pagan or have no mystical experiences, you have your goodness, your soul which is common to all humans.
I hope this helps

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Whether you are pagan or have no mystical experiences, you have your goodness, your soul which is common to all humans.

It is helpful, but what you call goodness may or may not be different for me. It's not different expressions. It's not the word.

If my goodness opposes everything you said, is it still good because I call it good or because of how you define it?

By whose definition do you define goodness for other people individually?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is helpful, but what you call goodness may or may not be different for me. It's not different expressions. It's not the word.

If my goodness opposes everything you said, is it still good because I call it good or because of how you define it?

By whose definition do you define goodness for other people individually?

That's a very difficult question because humanity has arrived at more or less a consensus on what constitutes good and evil from their own different traditions yet they have all arrived at the same basic conclusions.

How long ago this was etched in our souls I don't know. It may be at birth as we intrinsically are born with instincts to preserve life and what we call good seems to revolve around the protection and preservation of life.

A mother will naturally teach her child to be 'good' as in to respect and be kind to others even if she is non religious and an atheist so it seems we are born with an intrinsic goodness that is common to everyone.

So both you and Vinayaka have goodness in your soul and in your hearts. Now this goodness can be cultivated using different methods. You may use pagan methods, Vinayaka, Hindu and my self Bahá'í.

I believe ignorance leads to wrong doing and that none of us are born evil but born pure and free from sin. Baha'i belief states we are born good and sin free.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'u'llah provided for the future with the Universal House of Justice. So we do have a 'living guru' so to speak.

Although you say your guru is not infallible would you go against his advice? Same thing. You seek his advice and we seek the advice of the House of Justice. We have living guidance like you do but in a different form?

'So to speak' is not the same.

It is highly unlikely that I would go against my Guru's advice, because He normally gives great advice. But there is a lot more to it than verbal advice too. For example, He can do a lot of mystical stuff with the devotee, so a lot of the transmission of knowledge is on the inside. So for example, a person can come home from a pilgrimage with a seed planted in the mind, and then have a personal realisation pertinent to it. Unless you're in the relationship, it would be very difficult to understand it. Something like some person trying to describe what it's like in a marriage when they've never been married. The mere presence of the Satguru is a rare blessing.

Traditional Hindu sampradayas of this nature stay rather small on purpose. Ours has around 400 member only. Since Baha'i' population is 5 million, that's another large difference.

Can Baha'i' devotees go to the House of Justice, have a personal interview?

 

[loverofhumanity]

'So to speak' is not the same.

It is highly unlikely that I would go against my Guru's advice, because He normally gives great advice. But there is a lot more to it than verbal advice too. For example, He can do a lot of mystical stuff with the devotee, so a lot of the transmission of knowledge is on the inside. So for example, a person can come home from a pilgrimage with a seed planted in the mind, and then have a personal realisation pertinent to it. Unless you're in the relationship, it would be very difficult to understand it. Something like some person trying to describe what it's like in a marriage when they've never been married. The mere presence of the Satguru is a rare blessing.

Traditional Hindu sampradayas of this nature stay rather small on purpose. Ours has around 400 member only. Since Baha'i' population is 5 million, that's another large difference.

Can Baha'i' devotees go to the House of Justice, have a personal interview?

Yes I see your point. The House of Justice communicates with the Baha'is on a World and individual scale so Baha'is can get individual guidance from them on any matter.

As a community we will study their letters closely and derive guidance from our consultation.

Although it's quite different to your experience yet it's still guidance.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes I see your point. The House of Justice communicates with the Baha'is on a World and individual scale so Baha'is can get individual guidance from them on any matter.

As a community we will study their letters closely and derive guidance from our consultation.

Although it's quite different to your experience yet it's still guidance.

Yes, it's still guidance, but on a more external level. Many of the greatest Hindu teachers never said much at all. Hindus will go to a temple or sit with a Guru just to get the 'presence' . The energy radiating out from the Hindu temple or the holy man can be life changing. The Satguru is also at the end of the path, so it is also an ideal to attain to, to be like that. Non-Hindus generally don't view it at this dept, nor can they feel the energy.

One of the cherished letters I received from my first Guru simple said, 'Proceed with Confidence' . So it's about 95% at a mystical level, and personal.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's a very difficult question because humanity has arrived at more or less a consensus on what constitutes good and evil from their own different traditions yet they have all arrived at the same basic conclusions.

This is news to me. How can 'My way is the right and only way!" which is the conclusion many people have arrived at, in any way be the 'same conclusion' that the more tolerant folks have come to. Sure doesn't sound like the same conclusion to me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, it's still guidance, but on a more external level. Many of the greatest Hindu teachers never said much at all. Hindus will go to a temple or sit with a Guru just to get the 'presence' . The energy radiating out from the Hindu temple or the holy man can be life changing. The Satguru is also at the end of the path, so it is also an ideal to attain to, to be like that. Non-Hindus generally don't view it at this dept, nor can they feel the energy.

One of the cherished letters I received from my first Guru simple said, 'Proceed with Confidence' . So it's about 95% at a mystical level, and personal.

That's very enlightening. Thanks

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is news to me. How can 'My way is the right and only way!" which is the conclusion many people have arrived at, in any way be the 'same conclusion' that the more tolerant folks have come to. Sure doesn't sound like the same conclusion to me.

I'm only referring to basic goodness not any religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm only referring to basic goodness not any religion.

Even basic goodness varies. Take vegetarianism versus non-vegetarianism for example. Then there is this spreading of the 'good' news. So there are cultural variations to 'goodness' too, although it's a topic where there are less variations compared to say, the nature of God.

Another example is proselytizing. Generally the proselytizer figures he's doing good, whereas the victims may later find out it did a ton of harm.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's a very difficult question because humanity has arrived at more or less a consensus on what constitutes good and evil from their own different traditions yet they have all arrived at the same basic conclusions.

How long ago this was etched in our souls I don't know. It may be at birth as we intrinsically are born with instincts to preserve life and what we call good seems to revolve around the protection and preservation of life.

A mother will naturally teach her child to be 'good' as in to respect and be kind to others even if she is non religious and an atheist so it seems we are born with an intrinsic goodness that is common to everyone.

So both you and Vinayaka have goodness in your soul and in your hearts. Now this goodness can be cultivated using different methods. You may use pagan methods, Vinayaka, Hindu and my self Bahá'í.

I believe ignorance leads to wrong doing and that none of us are born evil but born pure and free from sin. Baha'i belief states we are born good and sin free.

I notice you only speak in "wes" (well, I notice this long time ago). When you speak in we-s you naturally fall into generalizations. Most of which may be vaguely sound but specifically false.

If my good is killing others and your good is helping others, would my good still be good just by another method or expression?

Remember, expressions are a part of who we are. So, if I murder someone (on purpose), and even made a living out of it, that becomes part of me. Logical, yes. Moral, to some people, no.

I'm watching the t.v. series show Sopranos. I sometimes I watch shows that are not on the air anymore like Star Trek. Saprano, a boss of an organized crime, defines good by how he runs The Business. The deaths at his people's hands were morally sound because the person who was murdered did not owe up to his or her end of the business deal. Some men gamble and owe and loose a limb for not paying. Others end up dead.

But that is his good because it's a business and how he works with clients depends on the client's motives and decisions not his own.​

This is a different expression of goodness, no?

We can't blame it on how he was raised. People have a choice regardless. People think that homosexuality is a choice based on how one is raised. I met many many many straight people who grew up in a similar environment and parents as I do but I am gay.

Of course, goodness isn't genetic since it's a moral trait. Yet, we do define goodness differently . It is not all the same definition.

I don't see goodness as you do. This isn't a different expression of the same truth. We are just totally different people. We have different truths not one.

How can goodness have one definition when there are so many people who define goodness differently? (Different expressions=different definition)

Edit
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Remember: If you can't define my peace, then even if I went to a Bahai event, I would not be respected spiritually because in order to do so, you'd have to be interested in the peace I have without reflecting it off of your own.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm only referring to basic goodness not any religion.

Goodness is defined by someone's religions or worldview. You can't separate the two; that is why each person's "goodness" is different.

For example, what @Vinayaka described with his guru, that "goodness" is completely different than you receive from the house of justice. It's not by different names nor by different expressions.

In my opinion, I wouldn't even put your experience and Vinayaka's experience under the same definition of good. That is why there are different truths.

How do you find similarities among foundations that are extremely different than yours-especially when you haven't experienced them to compare more accurately than a generalization?

 

[Vinayaka]

How do you find similarities among foundations that are extremely different than yours-especially when you haven't experienced them to compare more accurately than a generalization?

Yes, it's different when, like Adrian, he has been both a Baha'i' and a Christian, and therefore can speak a little from experience. But otherwise it's just all vague conjecture. So too with us. I have no idea what it's like to be a Baha'i', but am blocked just by the philosophy itself from ever finding out.

I'm afraid 'goodness' is just another in a long line of vague terms like 'spiritual', 'oneness', and 'unity' that may sound nice but have no real meaning.