How are these Great Beings explained?

[crowfeather]

I do. You're conversing with it.
Not what you expected, I'll bet.
Very little that's Real, is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Like I said, it is mentioned ..... sometimes, but not generally. So you managed to avoid the question ... Why is it GENERALLY avoided.

I am unaware that it is 'generally' avoided. I have seen the bloodline mentioned so many times I cannot understand why you say it is avoided.

Its mentioned on all the official Bahá'í websites of over two hundred nations.

A Global Community | The Bahá’í Faith

And in introductions to the Baha'i Faith like these... look under Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and you will see the bloodline mentioned.

8. Baha'i History

It's mentioned on the Australian Baha'i website here

Origins

Mentioned again on the Indian Bahá'í website

Baha'is of India | History | Introduction | Baha'i Faith

As you can see it is not omitted on any official websites at all so the official view is always to mention the bloodline.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do. You're conversing with it.
Not what you expected, I'll bet.
Very little that's Real, is.

Enlighten me then.

 

[crowfeather]

That's what I'm doing. In the only way that has any hope of success. By being what it takes.
Focus wide enough and you may glimpse it.

 

[icehorse]

That's what I'm doing. In the only way that has any hope of success. By being what it takes.
Focus wide enough and you may glimpse it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's also changed a lot in the last 200 years, in case you haven't noticed. The rate of change is accelerating, so a good argument could be made that this planet has changed more in the last 200 than in the previous 2000. Just as you make the argument that Jesus is no loner relevant, anyone can make the argument that Baha'u'llah is no longer relevant.

You could make that argument IF these things had come to pass:

1. World peace had been established
2. Unity between religions had been established
3. Women had achieved equal status and equal pay to men
4. World disarmament
5. Universal free education
6. Universal free Medicare
7. A World Parliament or Commonwealth
8. Universal human rights as binding international law.
9. Extremes of wealth and poverty had been abolished and replaced by profit sharing
10. Universal employment
12. Science and religion are united and work together as one
13. Many suppressed cultures had been revived and rejuvenated thus adding to the diversity of the human race
14. The elimination of all forms of prejudice and discrimination
15. A world language

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's what I'm doing. In the only way that has any hope of success. By being what it takes.
Focus wide enough and you may glimpse it.

Uninformative.

 

[crowfeather]

Uninformative.

Good. It's meant to be.
All you need to know is that God is real, enlightenment is possible.
The rest is up to you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe freedom of expression, independence in thought, and art is the best way of communication. I know others disagree, but because Bahai is a prophet-faith, it is hard to understand finding the truth through Bahaullah when he is an intermediary to the source.

Remember, I don't agree, studied, and practiced to know Christianity and Mayahana Buddhism has no Bahaullah in it and respects to Bahaullah. So, I don't see the prophets as an expression of god. If god speaks, he should speak directly to you as he speaks to the prophets.

How is the dead more kinder than the living?

You seem like a kind hearted and deeply thoughtful person. I like your style of writing.

You tell me of your beliefs in freedom of expression, independent thought, and communication through art. I believe in these too.

Baha'is understand God through the life and teachings of Baha'u'llah. We have a personal relationship with God too.

I appreciate you practised Christianity (through the Catholic Church) and Mayahana Buddhism and that you see no reference to Baha'u'llah in either of those religions. On the other hand I see Baha'u'llah throughout Christianity and that is one of our differences. I know you don't believe in God. Therefore the importance given to the Manifestations of God will be different.

I appreciate the contradiction you see with the different religions and how that appears to be in contradiction to the Baha'i teachings.

I never agreed with that. Many elephants. There is more than one elephant in real life. If based on that fact, you'd have many people hovering over each elephant. Think of one elephant as a religion and the people as the lineages, sects, or denominations.

This could be our literal verses allegory discussion all over again.

Whose love?

Also, this didn't address the statement. The argument between both parties should be resolved between the two.

For example, I'm taking up interpreting education. One big thing about being an interpret is if there is a dispute between both clients, I can only express the meaning of what each person said. I can't intervene. I can't say "I have love for you. I want to help you. Let's be one and help each other." That is not my place.

That is no one's place.

The affect of love on hearts in my experience makes it easier to overlook the faults of others. The love relationship is between God and us. It is the most important teaching in Christianity to love God, the second most important to love your neighbour and enemy, and to forgive. All the other commandments centre around these teachings.

I like the interpreter analogy but it may not apply to here. God is not a passive mediator but an active force for profound social change.

It's probably personal preference. I mentioned this to loverofhumanity but there he didn't mention anything back explaining why he does this. @Vinayaka and I (and I think @siti once) asked loverofhumanity to answer a direct statement or question. Even my small posts sometimes go overlooked when I don't have more than one in a short time period.

I don't mind waiting. You don't have to address all the questions and statements. When I wonder and ask why you don't, I don't get an answer from a few of you. Since you can't speak for all Bahai, I understand what you mean but I haven't recieved anything mor ethan that, really.

We are hardened men from the Antipodes and do the best we can.

From this whole thread, I understand Bahaullah I just don't agree with his methods just his goal. Just you, loverofhumanity, and investigatoroftuth have different ways of expressing the same thing. It's nice to hear different perspectives as long as I hear it from the person.

I get that. You feel like we use quotes too much eh?

Can you express your understanding of my statements without quoting Bahaullah?

It took me awhile to understand you guys, but conversations are give and take. @loverofhumanity I can't speak for Paganism as a whole but, to all of you, understanding where I'm coming from would help me understand you.

The Buddha in the Lotus Sutra explains it as speaking the Dharma in the language other people would understand it. So, instead of talking only in Japanese to everyone, I'd speak in the language that person is native to. They understand the Dharma that way. Since I can't talk to Bahaullah directly, I can only speak to his followers. Remember, I'm not a prophet-believer. I don't understand the concept of believing in a prophet rather than oneself or a living person.

Who are you? You are one beautiful soul! Do you want me to write your biography?

No problem with that. I wish I had a scripture or two to have a back and forth talk but I don't have that type of belief. People quote the bible all the time off of RF here, say god bless you, and talk about god as if it's an everyday word like pizza.

I mean, I have an opinion a part from my family. (I am my own tree). That doesn't mean I'm not part of the forest. I just value individual expression. That doesn't mean disunity just means not everyone are elephant thinkers.

With the Baha'i faith you can also look up what we believe on the internet and check out the quotes at your leisure. We can't do that with you.

I'm totally good with you having different beliefs and have no expectation that you are suddenly going to say "Wow, the Baha'i faith is so good. I think I'll join."

You have a good heart and beliefs. Why change?

 

[Vinayaka]

If you consult history you will find every religion has been involved in wars. They are not confined to just Christian and Muslim but Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish as well.

My 'generalization' was for the sake of 'brevity'.

.

That's true, but one also has to look at the relative amounts of wars.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you teach that other religions are true and we should accept them?

None of the major religions teaches their followers to accept all the other religions.

Hinduism accepts that all other religions are valid. The difference between us and Baha'i' is that we don't see them as holding the same truth, like you do. We respect the differences, in fact, we enjoy the differences. You keep thinking Baha'i's are the only tolerant people on this planet.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am unaware that it is 'generally' avoided. I have seen the bloodline mentioned so many times I cannot understand why you say it is avoided.

That was too predictable. I was just being honest from my own observations. But it's fine to me that we differ. You certainly haven't changed my mind.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's true, but one also has to look at the relative amounts of wars.

There's a lot of work to do to bring down tensions that still exist.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hinduism accepts that all other religions are valid. The difference between us and Baha'i' is that we don't see them as holding the same truth, like you do. We respect the differences, in fact, we enjoy the differences. You keep thinking Baha'i's are the only tolerant people on this planet.

Do you read from the Holy Books of other religions in your temples or is it just Hindu?

 

[Vinayaka]

Enlighten me then.

As I have mentioned to you before, when discussing the Baha'i' choices regarding whom was decided to be 'manifestations' I mentioned there were really thousands of people claiming to be the messiah over history, suffering from delusions of grandeur, even some on this forum. The 'I'm God' delusion is treated psychiatrically for the most part.

Since your prophets were self-proclaimed, I see no real difference between Baha'u'llah and crowfeather. There are two active members here now I know of.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That was too predictable. I was just being honest from my own observations. But it's fine to me that we differ. You certainly haven't changed my mind.

If you believe it's being avoided can you cite the instances as I would be interested to know where?

 

[Vinayaka]

There's a lot of work to do to bring down tensions that still exist.

Yes, all over. But it starts with the individual. Now this is a MAJOR paradigm difference. In Dharmic faiths we change the individual, fully recognising that if each individual changes, society will necessarily follow. Social change happens one person at a time. Aggressive proselytizing, shunning of traitors, arguing endlessly on forums, and more builds frustration not peace, within the individual. So, from the dharmic POV, many of the Baha'i' tactics and attitudes aren't helping at all.

Course I could be dead wrong.

Some actions do help, of course.

 

[Vinayaka]

Do you read from the Holy Books of other religions in your temples or is it just Hindu?

Hinduism is not a scripture or prophet based religion. I read the basics. There is rarely any reading in any Hindu temple of the variety I go to. Hindus go to Hindu temples for one purpose ... to commune with God. In other sects besides mine, Hindu scriptures might be read, sometimes in groups, with discussion, sometimes by a pundit. Hindu temples themselves vary a ton.

This is another huge paradigm difference, and we encounter it often with people from the Abrahamic faiths. They project their subconscious onto our paradigm, so often the first two questions are:

Who is your prophet?, and What is your book? Both are irrelevant questions. Most of my daily sadhana is spent quieting the mind.

 

[Vinayaka]

If you believe it's being avoided can you cite the instances as I would be interested to know where?

I told you it was my impression, I'm not re-reading all the stuff. But I could easily have gotten the wrong impression. My readings are a small sample size.

 

[Vinayaka]

But humanity's stubbornness clings to ways that have been proven to be disastrous.

Vast generalisation. Humanity is stubborn.

There are just so many problems with this kind of thinking ... from my POV. Apparently not from yours, or you wouldn't have repeated the similar lines for so long.

I assume you think Baha'i' are excluded from this stubbornness, which by logic would exclude Baha'i's from humanity. So it sets up another 'us versus them' mentality which by the way is actually contrary to Baha'i'; teachings. The overly simplistic but oft cited refrain comes to mind. "Practice what you preach."

There are indeed many wonderful wonderful people from all faiths, colours creeds, countries, genders, etc. that simply are not stubborn. By claiming humanity is stubborn, you're insulting every one of them, and putting yourself on a pedestal. The pedestal of the non-stubborn, the pedestal of the 'I'm better than you!"