How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Y
Religions basically own and control their followers with carefully planned dogma intended to keep their followers from leaving as they are a source of both wealth and power.

Again, you're generalising from Islam and Christianity into 'religions'. There is no fear mongering about leaving in a lot of religions. Maybe that's why people do convert away from the peace loving religions. There is no fear of going to hell for doing it. There is also very little dogma at least in the way there is dogma in Abrahamic faiths.

Hinduism definitely does not 'own and control' its adherents. The extent of anyone's practice is totally on our own volition. Please take a moment to reflect on this.

Heck, most Hindus aren't members of any organisations. They just go to the temples, do home rituals, and that's about it.

 

[Vinayaka]

We were talking about the future of humanity and that's up to people to decide don't you think?

I don't think most of the people decide much at all. Most people let others do their deciding for them, so power is actually in the hands of a very few. The very rich, the prophets, the people with authority, etc.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Again, you're generalising from Islam and Christianity into 'religions'. There is no fear mongering about leaving in a lot of religions. Maybe that's why people do convert away from the peace loving religions. There is no fear of going to hell for doing it. There is also very little dogma at least in the way there is dogma in Abrahamic faiths.

Hinduism definitely does not 'own and control' its adherents. The extent of anyone's practice is totally on our own volition. Please take a moment to reflect on this.

Heck, most Hindus aren't members of any organisations. They just go to the temples, do home rituals, and that's about it.

I think Iran is a prime example. We are the largest minority there and harm no one so why are we imprisoned and oppressed? We have no guns or armies and take no part in politics whatsoever.

In other countries also we are targeted yet we are only veery small in numbers and of no threat to anyone.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't think most of the people decide much at all. Most people let others do their deciding for them, so power is actually in the hands of a very few. The very rich, the prophets, the people with authority, etc.

Maybe the Middle Way is best.

Some things we need to decide for ourselves but if we are ill then self diagnosis could lead to tragedy so following the advice of a competent physician may be better.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think Iran is a prime example. We are the largest minority there and harm no one so why are we imprisoned and oppressed? We have no guns or armies and take no part in politics whatsoever.

In other countries also we are targeted yet we are only veery small in numbers and of no threat to anyone.

Iran is an Islamic country last time I heard. What do you expect? In India you have a beautiful house of worship. Why?

Lot's of groups get persecuted. Baha'i' aren't the only ones. It's sad all over the planet, wherever it happens. Whether it's the indigenous peoples of many countries, the Hindus in Bangladesh, non-Jews in Israel, or children in factories in many third world countries, its against humanity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Religions basically own and control their followers with carefully planned dogma intended to keep their followers from leaving as they are a source of both wealth and power.

This does not make sense. So that means an individual Christian is controlled by his dogma and the religion's purpose is to keep followers from leaving as they (the religion?) are both wealth and power?

I highly feel your definition of religion is completely off. While many religious have their political wars, that does not reflect a person's faith nor does the teachings of their religion and your religion too keep them locked in their faith.

Remember, you have dogma too. You have practices and you have traditions. This is the bias I'm speaking of.

You can't make peace with this mindset.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Iran is an Islamic country last time I heard. What do you expect? In India you have a beautiful house of worship. Why?

Lot's of groups get persecuted. Baha'i' aren't the only ones. It's sad all over the planet, wherever it happens. Whether it's the indigenous peoples of many countries, the Hindus in Bangladesh, non-Jews in Israel, or children in factories in many third world countries, its against humanity.

I think it's something to do with lack of spirituality.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think it's something to do with lack of spirituality.

Depends how you define spirituality.

 

[whirlingmerc]

One might ask who decides is great? Great because of impact or great because they really were great. There may be many great people who quietly live their lives hardly noticed

 

[loverofhumanity]

Depends how you define spirituality.

How do you define it?

 

[loverofhumanity]

This does not make sense. So that means an individual Christian is controlled by his dogma and the religion's purpose is to keep followers from leaving as they (the religion?) are both wealth and power?

I highly feel your definition of religion is completely off. While many religious have their political wars, that does not reflect a person's faith nor does the teachings of their religion and your religion too keep them locked in their faith.

Remember, you have dogma too. You have practices and you have traditions. This is the bias I'm speaking of.

You can't make peace with this mindset.

People tend not to question but just blindly believe what they've been told. I questioned the Faith I was born in and found that the truth was very different to what I was being told.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As with christians, it does get confusing what bahai believe because, like christians, all of you have differing backgrounds. This brings up my point again about many truths. All of you are not alike. Id consider each of you have your own truth and branches of your own tree. We are still a sea of humanity but we have differences too.

We are all individuals of course. We understand things differently. However there is one reality and multiple understandings of that reality.

It may be useful to consider the story of the blind men and the elephant...

Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia

In that light, if our differences caused wars, I would not expect someone outside our personal issues to solve our problem. Rather, it makes more sense to solve it between the parties involved.

The essence of faith is love. Love conquers hatred.

@loverofhumanity, not to be rude, has more of a bias view in regards to humanity and their relationship with bahaullahs teachings. I know you try to understand a bit but its also the same with you and @InvestigateTruth that when we, @Vinayaka and I ask a question or isolated statement you dont address the question and/or statement but repeat another verse from Bahaullah (or sohaveyou).

Ahhh, but what do you expect with a name like @loverofhumanity? He is emphasising the relationship with humanity and God. That is a very profound topic.

Baha'is IMHO don't try to avoid answering questions. I accept that we may not be the best communicators or representatives of the Baha'i Faith on RF. We just do what we can trusting in God.

I honestly dont know if this is a bahai method of answering questions of their religion. Loverofhumanity also mentioned he felt Bahaullahs words best describes what he wants to say.

I agree with that thinking.

If you want to understand the Baha'i faith, you need to understand Baha'u'llah.
If you want to understand Baha'is you need to understand Baha'u'llah.

The problem with quoting both christian and bahai alike is that a nonbeliever will have a different a disolated interpretation of the quoted. It will not Spark in our hearts that we "get it." It needs human interaction and explanation ---relating-- to the questions and/or statements at hand.

So what is it that you still don't understand?

If this were the case, the thread would have ended threads ago. But quoting has prolonged it because it still doesnt give an idea of whst you guys -individually- think rather than referring to yourselves as a whole then one person says X the other Y and you expect more quotes can resolve the issue.

It does not. I cant phrase it any other way.

We are Baha'is. We believe in Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day. The revelation of Baha'u'llah is like an illimitable ocean. Whatever you say or ask we will always draw new inspiration.

 

[Dawnofhope]

One might ask who decides is great? Great because of impact or great because they really were great. There may be many great people who quietly live their lives hardly noticed

So what criteria would you use?

 

[Vinayaka]

How do you define it?

I don't. For me, it's one of those really vague terms like 'unity'. When people say the popular neo-dharmic phrase, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual," I have absolutely
no idea what they mean, and suspect neither do they.

So nice word, but essentially meaningless.

 

[Vinayaka]

People tend not to question but just blindly believe what they've been told. I questioned the Faith I was born in and found that the truth was very different to what I was being told.

What has changed. Instead of Jesus, you now have Baha'u'llah?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People tend not to question but just blindly believe what they've been told. I questioned the Faith I was born in and found that the truth was very different to what I was being told.

Do you judge other people's spirituality and dependence on dogma (teachings) based on your experience and history?

If I did that, I'd say all the rest of the Churches are wrong in their worship. I'd also say that a relationship with christ only involves the brothers and sisters who physically gather together (not spiritually say they are brothers and sisters in their heads) and commune.

But, no. I use my experiences as an example but not to judge other people (well-intentioned or not).

How can you base other people's spiritual health (and this is greater spiritual health that leads them to peace you're talking about) on your experiences and history?

I know bias can blind people but you're a smart and reflective person. If you question, I'm sure you understand my point?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe freedom of expression, independence in thought, and art is the best way of communication. I know others disagree, but because Bahai is a prophet-faith, it is hard to understand finding the truth through Bahaullah when he is an intermediary to the source.

Remember, I don't agree, studied, and practiced to know Christianity and Mayahana Buddhism has no Bahaullah in it and respects to Bahaullah. So, I don't see the prophets as an expression of god. If god speaks, he should speak directly to you as he speaks to the prophets.

How is the dead more kinder than the living?

It may be useful to consider the story of the blind men and the elephant...

I never agreed with that. Many elephants. There is more than one elephant in real life. If based on that fact, you'd have many people hovering over each elephant. Think of one elephant as a religion and the people as the lineages, sects, or denominations.

The essence of faith is love. Love conquers hatred.

Whose love?

Also, this didn't address the statement. The argument between both parties should be resolved between the two.

For example, I'm taking up interpreting education. One big thing about being an interpret is if there is a dispute between both clients, I can only express the meaning of what each person said. I can't intervene. I can't say "I have love for you. I want to help you. Let's be one and help each other." That is not my place.

That is no one's place.

Baha'is IMHO don't try to avoid answering questions. I accept that we may not be the best communicators or representatives of the Baha'i Faith on RF. We just do what we can trusting in God.

It's probably personal preference. I mentioned this to loverofhumanity but there he didn't mention anything back explaining why he does this. @Vinayaka and I (and I think @siti once) asked loverofhumanity to answer a direct statement or question. Even my small posts sometimes go overlooked when I don't have more than one in a short time period.

I don't mind waiting. You don't have to address all the questions and statements. When I wonder and ask why you don't, I don't get an answer from a few of you. Since you can't speak for all Bahai, I understand what you mean but I haven't recieved anything mor ethan that, really.

If you want to understand Baha'is you need to understand Baha'u'llah.

From this whole thread, I understand Bahaullah I just don't agree with his methods just his goal. Just you, loverofhumanity, and investigatoroftuth have different ways of expressing the same thing. It's nice to hear different perspectives as long as I hear it from the person.

So what is it that you still don't understand?

Can you express your understanding of my statements without quoting Bahaullah?

It took me awhile to understand you guys, but conversations are give and take. @loverofhumanity I can't speak for Paganism as a whole but, to all of you, understanding where I'm coming from would help me understand you.

The Buddha in the Lotus Sutra explains it as speaking the Dharma in the language other people would understand it. So, instead of talking only in Japanese to everyone, I'd speak in the language that person is native to. They understand the Dharma that way. Since I can't talk to Bahaullah directly, I can only speak to his followers. Remember, I'm not a prophet-believer. I don't understand the concept of believing in a prophet rather than oneself or a living person.

We are Baha'is. We believe in Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day. The revelation of Baha'u'llah is like an illimitable ocean. Whatever you say or ask we will always draw new inspiration.

No problem with that. I wish I had a scripture or two to have a back and forth talk but I don't have that type of belief. People quote the bible all the time off of RF here, say god bless you, and talk about god as if it's an everyday word like pizza.

I mean, I have an opinion a part from my family. (I am my own tree). That doesn't mean I'm not part of the forest. I just value individual expression. That doesn't mean disunity just means not everyone are elephant thinkers.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's probably personal preference. I mentioned this to loverofhumanity but there he didn't mention anything back explaining why he does this. @Vinayaka and I (and I think @siti once) asked loverofhumanity to answer a direct statement or question. Even my small posts sometimes go overlooked when I don't have more than one in a short time period.

There have been several questions I've asked that have gone unanswered. A couple come to mind. One was a question about why, in the official Baha'i' information, the fact that Baha'u'llah appointed his son as his spiritual successor, and then in turn, the grandson. From an outsider's POV, this is pretty relevant info, but it seems it's a forbidden topic. (I think there are several forbidden topics) Another is the 'equality of women' issue that somehow doesn't apply to the House of Justice. Adrian did try to explain it to me, but most certainly it was no outright admission of hypocrisy in the leadership. I know If I was there, I'd just put forth a woman's name at the next round of elections. Course I'd probably be labelled a detractor and booted.

So every time I encounter something like this, I think there are two faces ... the public side, and then the secret within the Baha'i' stuff.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There have been several questions I've asked that have gone unanswered. A couple come to mind. One was a question about why, in the official Baha'i' information, the fact that Baha'u'llah appointed his son as his spiritual successor, and then in turn, the grandson. From an outsider's POV, this is pretty relevant info, but it seems it's a forbidden topic. (I think there are several forbidden topics) Another is the 'equality of women' issue that somehow doesn't apply to the House of Justice. Adrian did try to explain it to me, but most certainly it was no outright admission of hypocrisy in the leadership. I know If I was there, I'd just put forth a woman's name at the next round of elections. Course I'd probably be labelled a detractor and booted.

So every time I encounter something like this, I think there are two faces ... the public side, and then the secret within the Baha'i' stuff.

Yeah. I can't remember if this was answered by Lover but maybe others can answer.

If my peace is your peace, what is my peace?

I told them the question is important because if we are one tree with different branches, we should all be able to describe the core similarly even though (as they said) our expressions differ. Lover did say mystical experiences, most said love. Though none addressed my peace specifically.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah. I can't remember if this was answered by Lover but maybe others can answer.

If my peace is your peace, what is my peace?

I told them the question is important because if we are one tree with different branches, we should all be able to describe the core similarly even though (as they said) our expressions differ. Lover did say mystical experiences, most said love. Though none addressed my peace specifically.

But as you and I both know full well, there is huge discrepancy between 'answering' and 'answering to the satisfaction of the questioner'. But I am getting really used to it, and not expecting much. In my sampradaya's teachings. this phenomena would be called 'stuck in the gridded intellect'. I don't think I've ever really seen it so explicit, or perhaps I've never really had the opportunity before. For that I'm thankful.